New shorter NB4L unveiled

[TheGrandWazoo]

Aaaand here comes the circular argument of "it's amazing cos it's called Routemaster, anything else is rubbish"...

Irrespective of the whys and wherefores, I'm very bored of the argument.

Happy to discuss wider subjects of fare evasion etc, but the views pro and anti the NBfL have been done to death.

 

[neilm831]

https://www.flickr.com/photos/steves-travels/23658899795/in/photolist-BtE5Re-C3E3Dr-C3E2BM-BKeR12-B7egpu-BsBgiG-AS5KtM-BGdtCT-BvnAvh-BQDN6Y-AQ4uMk-AqcmrY-ASaeBH-BhbKRJ-AcACLT-At7E4C-AHedi3-Aoe3Da-Aoe2DV-ATuSUw-ATv9B3-B9oWb9-At7Gds-AZokB9-AMVBDE-AbXUSR-zHKSJ3-AvV4AS-ABM2RD-zvk3FZ-Ak8UT6-zkNQ6U-AiPAmD-A2G86z-zrhLPg-B7AWmS-AjhJYf-AfCsyD-zMWVVJ-zY7Lbt-AfArCh-AaDSso-zk9QBZ-AeRDwR-AeRvY4-zXm5Q6-zXktLi-A9VNPw-AjWYme-BcDM3A


image of 168 bus...very nice
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https://www.flickr.com/photos/waterford_man/14330952825/in/photolist-qCLnfT-rUHoar-r3P9sL-ASpych-qYkczx-8U8TVQ-BTJxqr-nQnSZx-wbWhQV-wtr7ki-bXbbwT-auF7Xk-aFc8dt-ngWE88-9ZMUzH-rBMS4c-pTF6wg-qXaT6X-a3zXqF-ecGYdn-9r8vWz-9yj33a-rNy4Go-uZmuQC-p5jRZN-yXPCKu-qcFwX3-wncQa1-wnSTct-e2HW9u-aeJQ5c-oS1nE6-yBc6qW-eTbiY5-qCZc3U-dzL4Sj-wGyL2M/

<<<Meanwhile the 10 year nightmare for 159 bus users come to an end today

 

[TheGrandWazoo]

https://www.flickr.com/photos/steves-travels/23658899795/in/photolist-BtE5Re-C3E3Dr-C3E2BM-BKeR12-B7egpu-BsBgiG-AS5KtM-BGdtCT-BvnAvh-BQDN6Y-AQ4uMk-AqcmrY-ASaeBH-BhbKRJ-AcACLT-At7E4C-AHedi3-Aoe3Da-Aoe2DV-ATuSUw-ATv9B3-B9oWb9-At7Gds-AZokB9-AMVBDE-AbXUSR-zHKSJ3-AvV4AS-ABM2RD-zvk3FZ-Ak8UT6-zkNQ6U-AiPAmD-A2G86z-zrhLPg-B7AWmS-AjhJYf-AfCsyD-zMWVVJ-zY7Lbt-AfArCh-AaDSso-zk9QBZ-AeRDwR-AeRvY4-zXm5Q6-zXktLi-A9VNPw-AjWYme-BcDM3A


image of 168 bus...very nice
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https://www.flickr.com/photos/waterford_man/14330952825/in/photolist-qCLnfT-rUHoar-r3P9sL-ASpych-qYkczx-8U8TVQ-BTJxqr-nQnSZx-wbWhQV-wtr7ki-bXbbwT-auF7Xk-aFc8dt-ngWE88-9ZMUzH-rBMS4c-pTF6wg-qXaT6X-a3zXqF-ecGYdn-9r8vWz-9yj33a-rNy4Go-uZmuQC-p5jRZN-yXPCKu-qcFwX3-wncQa1-wnSTct-e2HW9u-aeJQ5c-oS1nE6-yBc6qW-eTbiY5-qCZc3U-dzL4Sj-wGyL2M/

<<<Meanwhile the 10 year nightmare for 159 bus users come to an end today

Bored, bored, bored, bored..................

 

[90sWereBetter]

Look, we get it, you like the NBFL. Can we move on from your fawning, please.

And it depends what nightmare you're talking about for 159 passengers. I quite liked the mix of DLA, DW and VLAs on it. I'd have thought the nightmare was losing the Paddington Basin extension. That was a useful extension.

 

[Antman]

Bored, bored, bored, bored..................

And you posted just to say that?:roll:
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Look, we get it, you like the NBFL. Can we move on from your fawning, please.

And it depends what nightmare you're talking about for 159 passengers. I quite liked the mix of DLA, DW and VLAs on it. I'd have thought the nightmare was losing the Paddington Basin extension. That was a useful extension.

Not many other people found it useful, buses were often empty which is why it was withdrawn.
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Actually, I think most officers realise that nipping petty things in the bud can reduce larger crimes and anti social behaviour. Of course, various targets and other pressures can result in a blind eye being turned (and demoralisation when the legal system lets people off).

If someone starts to get used to getting away with the petty stuff, do we expect said people not to start getting the confidence to push the boundaries a little further?

Why is it that when a TOC does a block jointly with local police, the people who are stopped with ticket issues are so often found to be wanted, or carrying weapons, drugs etc?

I'd personally do far more stings because their benefits go way beyond recovering the cost of a free bus ride.

The other upside is that if we can control that, we can keep buses with easier access so we all benefit. Rather than having to cater for the criminals, and suffer a loss of privileges ourselves.

A small number of people are found to be wanted or carrying knives, drugs etc., many are not even searched anyway and even with the police present people give false details.

Quite honestly there aren't any benefits to open boarding, buses don't spend any less time at stops.

I don't think anybody would seriously suggest ticket gates are removed from tube stations so why should open boarding on a bus be any more acceptable?

 

[Tetchytyke]

Quite honestly there aren't any benefits to open boarding, buses don't spend any less time at stops.

Oh they do, the dwell times on the 73 since it switched to NBfL have dropped noticeably.

I don't think anybody would seriously suggest ticket gates are removed from tube stations so why should open boarding on a bus be any more acceptable?

Because a bus isn't a tube station.

There's open boarding on the tram and nobody seems to mind.

 

[Antman]

Oh they do, the dwell times on the 73 since it switched to NBfL have dropped noticeably.



Because a bus isn't a tube station.

There's open boarding on the tram and nobody seems to mind.

Really? I can't say I've noticed. Where dwell times have reduced is on routes like the 390 which has an open platform and conductor (which was the whole point of these buses) and many people get on and off in between stops when the traffic is slow.

There isn't much option on a tram, or the DLR, and I've no doubt fare evasion is rife as a result

 

[neilm831]

I am amused that my liking of the routemaster is boring,im also confident some posters here post in the tangytango bus forum where i see so much bleating about cost of the bus and how its awful blah blah blah...So I make no apologies for bigging up the vehicle!

 

[plcd1]

I expect to see these routes converted now

1/2/3/4/14/17/19/21/22/23/26/27/29/30/35/36/40/43/45/53/59/65/68/74/76/77/82/87/94/133/134/139/176/185/188/189/205/211/344/c2/

:roll:

Rather depends on whether TfL have any capital monies for buses (err they won't) and who the next Mayor is. Nowt will happen before May 2016 and I can't imagine NB4Ls being a priority matter for whoever the next Mayor is. Transport will be down the pecking order because housing is the priority.

It is also worth pointing out that several of the routes you list are not up for retender or have been awarded with conventional orders for which orders have been placed. Keep dreaming.

 

[TheGrandWazoo]

And you posted just to say that?:roll:
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Not many other people found it useful, buses were often empty which is why it was withdrawn.
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A small number of people are found to be wanted or carrying knives, drugs etc., many are not even searched anyway and even with the police present people give false details.

Quite honestly there aren't any benefits to open boarding, buses don't spend any less time at stops.

I don't think anybody would seriously suggest ticket gates are removed from tube stations so why should open boarding on a bus be any more acceptable?

Yep, I did. The "Borismaster is a beautiful creation that ranks alongside the Taj Mahal and can save us from Daesh, cancer and the common cold" has been done to completion. We get the opinion....

As for the issue of revenue protection, there should be a definite policy of overt revenue protection teams though I can't see it being done at 01:00 in Dalston

 

[neilm831]

:roll:

Rather depends on whether TfL have any capital monies for buses (err they won't) and who the next Mayor is. Nowt will happen before May 2016 and I can't imagine NB4Ls being a priority matter for whoever the next Mayor is. Transport will be down the pecking order because housing is the priority.

It is also worth pointing out that several of the routes you list are not up for retender or have been awarded with conventional orders for which orders have been placed. Keep dreaming.

Well the intention was to get these buses in the london zones and now with a version that can overcome small obstacles the longer version has not been suitable enough I would not be surprised that my dream becomes reality over busy london zones these routes go and which generally had a rm pre 1982 for example

 

[radamfi]

There isn't much option on a tram

Actually, trams can be designed so that you have to file past the tram driver when boarding. In Amsterdam, on most trams you are only allowed to enter at the doors by the driver or the conductor, with the other doors being exit only. In many places, even though they have open boarding, tram drivers sell tickets.

Open boarding is a necessary evil where the main priority is to get as many people on and off as quickly as possible. Checking whether everyone has paid is secondary and some lost revenue is inevitable, albeit mitigated by regular inspections. If there was absolutely no downside to front door only boarding, then open boarding wouldn't be considered. One compromise is to insist on front door entry late in the evening, which is common practice in Germany, for example.

The conductor on the original Routemaster did not collect all the fares when the bus was busy and there was not even potential for penalty fares, because the assumption was if you didn't have a ticket, then the conductor hadn't seen you yet.
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I don't think anybody would seriously suggest ticket gates are removed from tube stations

Because checking tickets at ticket gates doesn't slow down the train.

 

[Robertj21a]

I am amused that my liking of the routemaster is boring,im also confident some posters here post in the tangytango bus forum where i see so much bleating about cost of the bus and how its awful blah blah blah...So I make no apologies for bigging up the vehicle!

Excellent - and I similarly make no apologies for ignoring everything else you may post in future.

 

[Bletchleyite]

Quite honestly there aren't any benefits to open boarding, buses don't spend any less time at stops.

That is quite patently false, though it is true that Oyster makes the difference fairly small unless the stop is massively busy (think Oxford Street and similar). The contrast between London operation (no cash fares, two doors) and provincial operation (lots of cash fares and only one door so people have to wait for alighting passengers before boarding) is far more marked.

I don't think anybody would seriously suggest ticket gates are removed from tube stations so why should open boarding on a bus be any more acceptable?

Because ticket gates on the Tube do not affect the speed of boarding. And because ticket gates don't get bored and stop paying attention.

 

[Antman]

That is quite patently false, though it is true that Oyster makes the difference fairly small unless the stop is massively busy (think Oxford Street and similar). The contrast between London operation (no cash fares, two doors) and provincial operation (lots of cash fares and only one door so people have to wait for alighting passengers before boarding) is far more marked.



Because ticket gates on the Tube do not affect the speed of boarding. And because ticket gates don't get bored and stop paying attention.

It's oyster that reduces dwell times not open boarding.

If ticket gates were removed large numbers wouldn't pay, just like on open boarding buses.

 

[Bletchleyite]

It's oyster that reduces dwell times not open boarding.

No, both reduce dwell times. It takes a nontrivial (though small[1]) amount of time for each person to touch their Oyster card on the single reader by the driver[2] before the next can board. I agree that Oyster has had the biggest effect, but open boarding also has *an* effect, as potentially with a 3-door bus you can have 6 people boarding in parallel.

If ticket gates were removed large numbers wouldn't pay, just like on open boarding buses.

Quite possibly, but bus and Tube are quite different.

[1] Near zero difference if 3 are boarding, but if 30 are boarding it is noticeable and obvious.

[2] Often with a delay while it occurs to them that they do have to pay, then to prat around in their bag or wallet to find said Oyster card.

 

[Antman]

Actually, trams can be designed so that you have to file past the tram driver when boarding. In Amsterdam, on most trams you are only allowed to enter at the doors by the driver or the conductor, with the other doors being exit only. In many places, even though they have open boarding, tram drivers sell tickets.

Open boarding is a necessary evil where the main priority is to get as many people on and off as quickly as possible. Checking whether everyone has paid is secondary and some lost revenue is inevitable, albeit mitigated by regular inspections. If there was absolutely no downside to front door only boarding, then open boarding wouldn't be considered. One compromise is to insist on front door entry late in the evening, which is common practice in Germany, for example.

The conductor on the original Routemaster did not collect all the fares when the bus was busy and there was not even potential for penalty fares, because the assumption was if you didn't have a ticket, then the conductor hadn't seen you yet.
--- old post above --- --- new post below ---


Because checking tickets at ticket gates doesn't slow down the train.

Yes there are trams in Lisbon like that but I don't think it's practical to convert Tramlink to that mode of operation so fare dodging is here to stay but why start it on buses? Three door buses offer no significant advantage over two doored buses.

And ticket gates obviously do slow down passenger flows at busy times.

If only we could trust everyone to pay their fare but clearly we can't.
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No, both reduce dwell times. It takes a nontrivial (though small[1]) amount of time for each person to touch their Oyster card on the single reader by the driver[2] before the next can board. I agree that Oyster has had the biggest effect, but open boarding also has *an* effect, as potentially with a 3-door bus you can have 6 people boarding in parallel.



Quite possibly, but bus and Tube are quite different.

[1] Near zero difference if 3 are boarding, but if 30 are boarding it is noticeable and obvious.

[2] Often with a delay while it occurs to them that they do have to pay, then to prat around in their bag or wallet to find said Oyster card.

The proof of the pudding was in the 36/436 and 53/453 common sections when the 436 and 453 were open boarding artics but were no quicker than the conventional 36 and 53 over the long common sections.

You can rant and rave all you like but that is an irrefutable fact!

 

[radamfi]

Three door buses offer no significant advantage over two doored buses.

If that was true, then no operator in the world would have three door buses. On trams, you can get four or more doors.

And ticket gates obviously do slow down passenger flows at busy times.

That's a downside of ticket gates, which is partly why they are not in universal use across the world. However, attempts are made to keep the delay to a minimum, for example by having lots of gates and using smartcards, and in most cases, the delay is negligible. But if you assume it takes a few extra seconds dwell time at each bus stop to check tickets, then that could add up to needing another bus on the route to maintain the same frequency.
--- old post above --- --- new post below ---

I don't think it's practical to convert Tramlink to that mode of operation so fare dodging is here to stay

If the huge volume of passengers who currently use Tramlink had to file past the tram driver and touch the card on the reader, the current timetable would be unviable. Surely that's obvious? The question is whether the crowding levels on busy bus routes are acute enough to need the same treatment. TfL clearly think it is.

 

[Bletchleyite]

The proof of the pudding was in the 36/436 and 53/453 common sections when the 436 and 453 were open boarding artics but were no quicker than the conventional 36 and 53 over the long common sections.

You wouldn't get your Science GCSE for that!

What that proves is that, overall, 3-door 18m artics with open boarding are not quicker than 2-door, 10-12m double-deckers with 2 doors and front-door boarding. There are other factors that may make artics slower - more difficult to manoeuvre safely, larger number of standing passengers in the way.

To get a fair comparison, you would have to compare front boarding and open boarding on the same type of bus.
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That's a downside of ticket gates, which is partly why they are not in universal use across the world. However, attempts are made to keep the delay to a minimum, for example by having lots of gates and using smartcards, and in most cases, the delay is negligible.

But also that ticket gates do not slow down operations.

But if you assume it takes a few extra seconds dwell time at each bus stop to check tickets, then that could add up to needing another bus on the route to maintain the same frequency.

In the Oysterless provinces that is certainly true and it amazes me that operators don't try to get the ticketing off the bus in an effective manner, even if it were to TfL style front boarding but no cash.

As for Amsterdam trams, that style of operation for a tram is madness. It's not uncommon to be able to buy a ticket from the driver *if* you need one, but having the conductor in a booth is just odd. Though I suppose at least they can pay the conductor once the vehicle starts moving.

 

[neilm831]

Excellent - and I similarly make no apologies for ignoring everything else you may post in future.

I won't sleep tonight

 

[TheGrandWazoo]

I won't sleep tonight

Yeah, we suspected your bed probably doesn't see much action....

 

[neilm831]

Yeah, we suspected your bed probably doesn't see much action....

Are you his spokesman and can you go into detail what you are implying here?

 

[TheGrandWazoo]

Are you his spokesman and can you go into detail what you are implying here?

No and merely reflecting your words...

 

[Antman]

If that was true, then no operator in the world would have three door buses. On trams, you can get four or more doors.



That's a downside of ticket gates, which is partly why they are not in universal use across the world. However, attempts are made to keep the delay to a minimum, for example by having lots of gates and using smartcards, and in most cases, the delay is negligible. But if you assume it takes a few extra seconds dwell time at each bus stop to check tickets, then that could add up to needing another bus on the route to maintain the same frequency.
--- old post above --- --- new post below ---


If the huge volume of passengers who currently use Tramlink had to file past the tram driver and touch the card on the reader, the current timetable would be unviable. Surely that's obvious? The question is whether the crowding levels on busy bus routes are acute enough to need the same treatment. TfL clearly think it is.

No other operators in the UK do have three door buses.

And yes that was my whole point about Tramlink.

 

[PermitToTravel]

Don't bendy buses with three or more doors run throughout the UK?

 

[Antman]

Don't bendy buses with three or more doors run throughout the UK?

No the few bendy buses in the UK have two doors, even the ex London ones in Brighton have been converted to two doors

 

[carlberry]

Really? I can't say I've noticed. Where dwell times have reduced is on routes like the 390 which has an open platform and conductor (which was the whole point of these buses) and many people get on and off in between stops when the traffic is slow.

They dont have conductors. They have somebody who's employed to reduce the insurance cost of having a moving vehicle with a large gap in it that people can fall out of!

 

[Mojo]

The 902 and 904 buses in Bristol use ex-London Bendy Buses and have retained their three doors, and you can board by any door at select city centre stops only, after 11a.m.

 

[neilm831]

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=6aq45NiltjQ


These buses together with the new LTS really stand out compared to the boxes on other routes

 

[PermitToTravel]

No the few bendy buses in the UK have two doors, even the ex London ones in Brighton have been converted to two doors

I must have hallucinated getting on one with three doors in Bury today then