New shorter NB4L unveiled

[carlberry]

cANT BELIEVE THE FUSS THE COST OF THE BUS MAKES

The money was available to ease congestion..3 entrances..three exits,more ability to scan contactless and oyster without looking at the driver and the bus leaves the bus stop much quicker and looks better too.

MONEY WELL SPENT

Exactly! Unfortunately somebody then got rid of the artics that had all these advantages!

 

[padbus]

The only logical reason for a shorter NB4L is the TfL must think that a three door, two staircase bus loads and unloads quicker and therefore speeds journey times. If they just wanted a shorter bus they would have used the Enviro400 or Wright Streedeck or Volvo/Gemini. We must hope they have conducted a proper survey of passenger behaviour - after all, with over 500 NB4Ls in service, regular users must be getting used to the layout of these buses.

ADL are developing a 3 door two staircase version of the Enviro500 for the Swiss market so perhaps the forthcoming E400 City could be built with a similar layout.

As for bendybuses, Boris's term of office finishes next year...

 

[neilm831]

Although not a particular fan of the bendy bus,they were better than the eyesores on routes 18 and 207 they have now and did not need to be removed from those routes.

The risk factor boarding a bus and not scanning in prevents me from a free ride.

Route 73 for example running without a ca,however only needs about six inspectors on the route to catch and fine people and fines being significant enough to compensate on those they do not catch.

All this free bus chat dont wash with me,in my view gives tfl more scope to make more money on fare dodgers and dishonest people.

 

[Robertj21a]

Although not a particular fan of the bendy bus,they were better than the eyesores on routes 18 and 207 they have now and did not need to be removed from those routes.

The risk factor boarding a bus and not scanning in prevents me from a free ride.

Route 73 for example running without a ca,however only needs about six inspectors on the route to catch and fine people and fines being significant enough to compensate on those they do not catch.

All this free bus chat dont wash with me,in my view gives tfl more scope to make more money on fare dodgers and dishonest people.

Yes, it might do but the fact is that TfL never has been very efficient when it comes to revenue control. They had no real idea of how to control fare evasion on the artics and had, quite clearly, never seen how it is usually handled in other countries (where they operate in vast numbers).

 

[MotCO]

You could do that and then you'd have an, errrmmmm, Enviro 400?

But a bit more stylish, certainly more stylish than a Gemini / StreetDeck.

Is a E400H less fuel efficient than a NB4L?

 

[Mojo]

Yes, it might do but the fact is that TfL never has been very efficient when it comes to revenue control. They had no real idea of how to control fare evasion on the artics and had, quite clearly, never seen how it is usually handled in other countries (where they operate in vast numbers).

And now with Contactless cards being accepted, which are no longer checked whether they have been validated[1], there is effectively no penalty for not having touched in.

[1]When CPCs were first accepted, Inspectors got the driver to print a ticket which was cross-referenced against the card when presented by a customer. Now, they are scanned by a Revenue Inspection Device, which only tells the Inspector whether the card could have been touched in, not whether it was.

 

[mbonwick]

Is a E400H less fuel efficient than a NB4L?

No, the E400H is actually better on fuel than NB4L.

 

[matt_world2004]

And now with Contactless cards being accepted, which are no longer checked whether they have been validated[1], there is effectively no penalty for not having touched in.

[1]When CPCs were first accepted, Inspectors got the driver to print a ticket which was cross-referenced against the card when presented by a customer. Now, they are scanned by a Revenue Inspection Device, which only tells the Inspector whether the card could have been touched in, not whether it was.

Dont they, I have seen it several times recently where there has been a print out for the RPI to check the contactless payment cards.

 

[Bletchleyite]

And now with Contactless cards being accepted, which are no longer checked whether they have been validated[1], there is effectively no penalty for not having touched in.

[1]When CPCs were first accepted, Inspectors got the driver to print a ticket which was cross-referenced against the card when presented by a customer. Now, they are scanned by a Revenue Inspection Device, which only tells the Inspector whether the card could have been touched in, not whether it was.

Are bus ticket machines online now, e.g. via 4G? If so, it isn't beyond the wit of man to have an inspection device that can call back to HQ and see if the card was touched in or not. If not, I doubt that being viable will be far off.

It's on the Tube where it's more difficult, though on-board revenue checks on the Tube are rare - I've had it maybe twice in my life if that. Do they even do it at all any more?

 

[Mojo]

Are bus ticket machines online now, e.g. via 4G? If so, it isn't beyond the wit of man to have an inspection device that can call back to HQ and see if the card was touched in or not. If not, I doubt that being viable will be far off.

I believe there has been a 3G connection from buses for years now, although I am not sure what data is transmitted.

It's on the Tube where it's more difficult, though on-board revenue checks on the Tube are rare - I've had it maybe twice in my life if that. Do they even do it at all any more?

Yes, still done, although the majority of work for a number of years now has been in plain clothes on stations.

 

[Antman]

Are bus ticket machines online now, e.g. via 4G? If so, it isn't beyond the wit of man to have an inspection device that can call back to HQ and see if the card was touched in or not. If not, I doubt that being viable will be far off.

It's on the Tube where it's more difficult, though on-board revenue checks on the Tube are rare - I've had it maybe twice in my life if that. Do they even do it at all any more?

I've never seen an on board ticket check on the tube in my life and I use it regularly
--- old post above --- --- new post below ---

Although not a particular fan of the bendy bus,they were better than the eyesores on routes 18 and 207 they have now and did not need to be removed from those routes.

The risk factor boarding a bus and not scanning in prevents me from a free ride.

Route 73 for example running without a ca,however only needs about six inspectors on the route to catch and fine people and fines being significant enough to compensate on those they do not catch.

All this free bus chat dont wash with me,in my view gives tfl more scope to make more money on fare dodgers and dishonest people.

Have you seen the abuse inspectors get? "You're havin a laugh man it's a free bus innit" said one chav and names such as Mr D.Duck and Mr M. Mouse are offered. It's a complete waste of time, far simpler for passengers to have to pass the driver and show their entitlement to travel.

I agree artics were ok on the 18 and 207 but keep them out of central London.

 

[Bletchleyite]

Have you seen the abuse inspectors get? "You're havin a laugh man it's a free bus innit" said one chav and names such as Mr D.Duck and Mr M. Mouse are offered. It's a complete waste of time, far simpler for passengers to have to pass the driver and show their entitlement to travel.

That would be true if London bus drivers were actually interested in revenue to the extent that provincial ones tend to be (it seems a matter of pride outside London not to let anyone get away with anything, in my experience, even to the extent of rejecting obscure but valid tickets). These days when all they need to do is watch the ticket machine for the requisite bleeps or pay no attention to something that looks vaguely like it might be a paper Travelcard, they are not doing an effective job at that.

FWIW, though, the Boris buses have exactly the same revenue policy as the artics did.

 

[Antman]

That would be true if London bus drivers were actually interested in revenue to the extent that provincial ones tend to be (it seems a matter of pride outside London not to let anyone get away with anything, in my experience, even to the extent of rejecting obscure but valid tickets). These days when all they need to do is watch the ticket machine for the requisite bleeps or pay no attention to something that looks vaguely like it might be a paper Travelcard, they are not doing an effective job at that.

FWIW, though, the Boris buses have exactly the same revenue policy as the artics did.

Bus drivers in London and elsewhere are all different, some will ensure everybody pays whilst others won't give two hoots.

Yes any bus with open boarding is going to have the same revenue loss.

 

[Bletchleyite]

Bus drivers in London and elsewhere are all different, some will ensure everybody pays whilst others won't give two hoots.

It is obvious in my experience that provincial bus drivers are in general more interested in revenue than London ones. This may well be because up until 10-15 or so years ago many London bus drivers didn't have to deal with revenue at all anyway, as the conductor did that!

Yes any bus with open boarding is going to have the same revenue loss.

Indeed, unless you use a stronger approach to enforcement. Such as have the Police on hand to arrest any "Mickey Mouse" name-givers, and use plain clothes revenue squads in the manner the Germans do.

 

[jon0844]

Are bus ticket machines online now, e.g. via 4G? If so, it isn't beyond the wit of man to have an inspection device that can call back to HQ and see if the card was touched in or not. If not, I doubt that being viable will be far off.

It's on the Tube where it's more difficult, though on-board revenue checks on the Tube are rare - I've had it maybe twice in my life if that. Do they even do it at all any more?

They should have more revenue inspectors for sure. I suspect there's a lot of sharing of discounted/free Oyster cards, boarding buses without tapping in, and people travelling beyond their validity and doubling up at gates etc.

It would be naive to think the problem wasn't worse than TfL think it is (hence believing that not gating every entrance to Finsbury Park tube will not have people walking around to avoid paying).

As for a data connection, buses wouldn't even need to send back data regularly. If revenue teams board, they could tap the reader with a special card which triggers the sending of data from the bus, which in turn can then be read on their handheld devices (also connected) within a matter of seconds - allowing them to commence a sweep of the bus.

If they were on the right network, I can't imagine there being any part of London where buses operate being in a coverage blackspot for 2G, 3G or 4G.
--- old post above --- --- new post below ---

It is obvious in my experience that provincial bus drivers are in general more interested in revenue than London ones. This may well be because up until 10-15 or so years ago many London bus drivers didn't have to deal with revenue at all anyway, as the conductor did that!

Indeed, unless you use a stronger approach to enforcement. Such as have the Police on hand to arrest any "Mickey Mouse" name-givers, and use plain clothes revenue squads in the manner the Germans do.

Exactly this. Out here, bus drivers will chuck people off the bus, refuse to move etc.

In London, drivers are told not to get involved, leave their cab or delay the service (perhaps unless people are getting abusive to other passengers) and that is effectively a green light to further problems.

Indeed, it doesn't take long for people to learn that when you're in a group on a train and there's a lone RPI wanting to see your tickets, being loud and abusive will either mean a call to BTP, or said RPI letting you off 'this time' because conflict avoidance training takes precedent for obvious reasons.

The solution is of course better enforcement, accompanied by BTP, so the chancers find that their odds of being let off are greatly reduced.

 

[Bletchleyite]

The solution is of course better enforcement, accompanied by BTP, so the chancers find that their odds of being let off are greatly reduced.

Indeed. You need to know that if you don't pay you will get a PF, or will be prosecuted. Will, not might. So TfL need to do some more revenue protection recruitment.

 

[Robertj21a]

I've never seen an on board ticket check on the tube in my life and I use it regularly
--- old post above --- --- new post below ---


Have you seen the abuse inspectors get? "You're havin a laugh man it's a free bus innit" said one chav and names such as Mr D.Duck and Mr M. Mouse are offered. It's a complete waste of time, far simpler for passengers to have to pass the driver and show their entitlement to travel.

I agree artics were ok on the 18 and 207 but keep them out of central London.

That's why I said that TfL have little idea how to enforce revenue controls, they'd much rather take the 'it's far too difficult' way out. They need to go to countries which use artic buses (or the trams) to see that it only takes a determined team of enforcers to have a major impact.

.

 

[Antman]

It is obvious in my experience that provincial bus drivers are in general more interested in revenue than London ones. This may well be because up until 10-15 or so years ago many London bus drivers didn't have to deal with revenue at all anyway, as the conductor did that!



Indeed, unless you use a stronger approach to enforcement. Such as have the Police on hand to arrest any "Mickey Mouse" name-givers, and use plain clothes revenue squads in the manner the Germans do.

It's a bit more than 10-15 years ago, one person buses have been on the streets of London since the early 70's.

Police in London do generally have more important things to do

 

[Bletchleyite]

It's a bit more than 10-15 years ago, one person buses have been on the streets of London since the early 70's.

They have, but there were a *lot* of RMs until the mid 2000s.

 

[Antman]

That's why I said that TfL have little idea how to enforce revenue controls, they'd much rather take the 'it's far too difficult' way out. They need to go to countries which use artic buses (or the trams) to see that it only takes a determined team of enforcers to have a major impact.

.

This "determined team of enforcers" will obviously cost money and will have to prevent a hell of a lot of fare evasion to be cost effective, getting something for nothing is part of the British culture hence the need for ticket gates at many rail stations.
--- old post above --- --- new post below ---

They have, but there were a *lot* of RMs until the mid 2000s.

I wouldn't say a lot, RM's were largely confined to central London, most routes have been driver only for decades

 

[Robertj21a]

This "determined team of enforcers" will obviously cost money and will have to prevent a hell of a lot of fare evasion to be cost effective, getting something for nothing is part of the British culture hence the need for ticket gates at many rail stations.
--- old post above --- --- new post below ---

They will recoup far more than their wages until such time as the message gets home that the 'free ride' no longer exists. If they weren't successful then I doubt foreign operators would bother to employ them, particularly given that many people would view the Germans, Austrians, Swiss etc as generally law-abiding folk.

 

[Bletchleyite]

They will recoup far more than their wages until such time as the message gets home that the 'free ride' no longer exists. If they weren't successful then I doubt foreign operators would bother to employ them, particularly given that many people would view the Germans, Austrians, Swiss etc as generally law-abiding folk.

Despite which "Schwarzfahren" is said to be a national sport in parts of Germany

 

[Antman]

They will recoup far more than their wages until such time as the message gets home that the 'free ride' no longer exists. If they weren't successful then I doubt foreign operators would bother to employ them, particularly given that many people would view the Germans, Austrians, Swiss etc as generally law-abiding folk.

You've said it yourself, they tend to be more law abiding.

Open boarding is like a supermarket leaving a fire exit at the back of the store open all day and wondering why so much stock was going missing!

 

[neilm831]

In other news users of the 159 get a decent bus on saturday for the 1st time since the departure of rm on this day

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=3AtoJ5gDw2Y
--- old post above --- --- new post below ---
http://www.brixtonbuzz.com/2015/12/routemaster-buses-rumble-through-brixton-again-in-photos/ <<< You realise just how bad todays buses are apart from the LT's when looking at the interior and exterior of this fantastic memory. Shame on those vehicles running on the 94 for example today.

 

[mbonwick]

Aaaand here comes the circular argument of "it's amazing cos it's called Routemaster, anything else is rubbish"...

 

[Robertj21a]

Aaaand here comes the circular argument of "it's amazing cos it's called Routemaster, anything else is rubbish"...

Not if we ignore him.......

 

[neilm831]

If a bus launched tomorrow called the flying saucer and it was better than any rt,rm or LT then I would big it up

 

[jon0844]

It's a bit more than 10-15 years ago, one person buses have been on the streets of London since the early 70's.

Police in London do generally have more important things to do

Actually, I think most officers realise that nipping petty things in the bud can reduce larger crimes and anti social behaviour. Of course, various targets and other pressures can result in a blind eye being turned (and demoralisation when the legal system lets people off).

If someone starts to get used to getting away with the petty stuff, do we expect said people not to start getting the confidence to push the boundaries a little further?

Why is it that when a TOC does a block jointly with local police, the people who are stopped with ticket issues are so often found to be wanted, or carrying weapons, drugs etc?

I'd personally do far more stings because their benefits go way beyond recovering the cost of a free bus ride.

The other upside is that if we can control that, we can keep buses with easier access so we all benefit. Rather than having to cater for the criminals, and suffer a loss of privileges ourselves.

 

[neilm831]

Lts launching today on this route http://www.londonbusroutes.net/times/168.htm

 

[Busaholic]

That would be true if London bus drivers were actually interested in revenue to the extent that provincial ones tend to be (it seems a matter of pride outside London not to let anyone get away with anything, in my experience, even to the extent of rejecting obscure but valid tickets). These days when all they need to do is watch the ticket machine for the requisite bleeps or pay no attention to something that looks vaguely like it might be a paper Travelcard, they are not doing an effective job at that.

FWIW, though, the Boris buses have exactly the same revenue policy as the artics did.

My first visit to London for a few months - the first bus I used, from Romford Station, been a gap in service, lot of people getting on, I held back, conscious there was another bus on the same route behind us. All of a sudden, a ruckus in front, the driver, a man of mature years, was not accepting the pass presented by the much younger woman: he was polite, she was swearing, but she had to get off. The driver said to me 'see what I have to put up with' and I duly sympathised.