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Crewe Hub

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Altnabreac

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It's not in the bill. It's not in for a very good reason - it would be completely useless unless Bristol-Birmingham is electrified and that's not going to happen until the 2030s. But it would make a lot of sense to add the junction in when the electrification happens, because then you can do Bristol-Newcastle in about 3 hours.

It would also allow a classic compatible to Wolverhampton without any additional electrification but either way its not in current plans.

The Glasgow / Edinburgh - Birmingham CC services would be the other obvious candidates for extension SW wards post electrification.
 
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CdBrux

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In the long term it must be a good idea. HS2 was originally conceived as north / south. Now we see some rethinking in the north to fit 'northern powerhouse' where it is recognised that linking together better non London cities is a good thing. An eventual link to Bristol & beyond is surely the next logical progression after further improvements of links to Scotland.

Is even passive provision not included / not even thought of?
 

yorksrob

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Having walked between Crewe station and town centre, I have to say that the idea of moving it further south seems very bad.
 

All Line Rover

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Very bad for Crewe; good for the WCML.

And for almost everywhere that is within a 30 mile drive of the A500 at Basford. There is little point in building a station in Crewe on a 225/250mph railway line if it takes half an hour to drive the 4 miles to Nantwich (west) or 5 miles to Sandbach (east). 60 minutes to cover the 150 miles from London and then another 30 minutes just to drive around 5 miles down the road from Crewe station!
 
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HowardGWR

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It's not in the bill. It's not in for a very good reason - it would be completely useless unless Bristol-Birmingham is electrified and that's not going to happen until the 2030s. But it would make a lot of sense to add the junction in when the electrification happens, because then you can do Bristol-Newcastle in about 3 hours.

Yes but my Q was where would it join?
 

The Planner

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Original idea was near Castle Bromwich Jn where HS2 starts to dive down into the Bromford tunnel so you get the height for grade separation.

As for the Crewe Basford Hall issue, it is only bad if they don't do something to link it to the existing town, it would offer huge development opportunities at Basford I would have thought.
 

yorksrob

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Original idea was near Castle Bromwich Jn where HS2 starts to dive down into the Bromford tunnel so you get the height for grade separation.

As for the Crewe Basford Hall issue, it is only bad if they don't do something to link it to the existing town, it would offer huge development opportunities at Basford I would have thought.

I could see the point if there were no choice, but an extra leg of the journey is still a nuisance. Ideally all stations should be within walking distance of the town. True, they're not, but moving one which is just about within walking distance to somewhere nowhere near is a massive backwards step. And that's before you get to issues with it being in the wrong location for South Westerly services.

We're in danger of making the same mistakes as with HS1 in which they tried to use the railway as a development tool at Ebsfleet by marginalising Ashford which offered practical railway connectivity.
 

Camden

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"We're" not in the danger of doing any such thing. If any mistakes are made they are solely those of HS2/the government.

People should make this distinction more often. The British public and Britain as a whole take a lot of flak for things they have next to no involvement in, are excluded from having any kind of involvement in or say over, and which are instead wholly and solely the doing of an undeserving elite.
 
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HowardGWR

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Original idea was near Castle Bromwich Jn where HS2 starts to dive down into the Bromford tunnel so you get the height for grade separation.

I can't see any HS2 tunnel marked on the .kml file I downloaded for Google Earth. Is that going to be near, say, Castle Bromwich Park (near where there is a present triangle of lines towards Water Orton)?
 

6Gman

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Original idea was near Castle Bromwich Jn where HS2 starts to dive down into the Bromford tunnel so you get the height for grade separation.

As for the Crewe Basford Hall issue, it is only bad if they don't do something to link it to the existing town, it would offer huge development opportunities at Basford I would have thought.

The problem with that is that the land on either side of Basford Hall is already allocated for development (some has already started).
 

Holly

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Having walked between Crewe station and town centre, I have to say that the idea of moving it further south seems very bad.
Agreed.
It would be better to completely remodel the existing station.
Existing lines stay where they presently are.
HS2 stoppers at high level, new construction.
Through trains at low level, in a tunnel.

Temporary arrangement for Phase 2A - bay platforms for GC gauge terminators at ground level.
 

Holly

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Nothing will terminate at Crewe HS2 wise that I know of so you wont need bays.
Well it would make sense, if only for financial reasons, to have Crewe terminators as a temporary arrangement. After completion of Phase 2A and before Phase 2B is opened.
 

edwin_m

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Well it would make sense, if only for financial reasons, to have Crewe terminators as a temporary arrangement. After completion of Phase 2A and before Phase 2B is opened.

This would need more trains in Phase 2A (possible) and probably some of the extra platforms at Euston that aren't available until Phase 2B (unlikely).
 

The Planner

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Well it would make sense, if only for financial reasons, to have Crewe terminators as a temporary arrangement. After completion of Phase 2A and before Phase 2B is opened.

Why? you just send the trains onwards, whats the point of terminating at Crewe?
 

Holly

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Why? you just send the trains onwards, whats the point of terminating at Crewe?
At Phase 2A and prior to Phase 2B it is not possible to send Double-Decker trains onwards.

It can be expected that operating costs (and therefore fares) on Double-Decker trains will be a fraction of costs on classic-compatible trains. Per passenger-mile that is. Therefore providing Crewe terminators during the transition period (after 2A, before 2B) provides cheaper fares and more capacity for everywhere with a local railway connection to Crewe.

For 'First Class' (high fares no object) then classic compatibles have more to offer. Bring back Manchester and Liverpool Pullmans!
 

TBY-Paul

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Where have double deckers come into this? They won't be.

I was under the impression that "Captive" stock would be double-decker trains, with " Classic compatible" trains being single decker's. Have things changed, or was that never the plan?
 

Haydn1971

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I was under the impression that "Captive" stock would be double-decker trains, with " Classic compatible" trains being single decker's. Have things changed, or was that never the plan?


First set of captive stock has been suggested as being single deck, the line is to be built with passive provision for double deck, the mid term (of the 60 year costed life) has a second fleet of trains costed, these are likely to be double deck
 

edwin_m

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Single versus double deck for HS2 has been discussed on here many times before. In summary:

New HS2 lines will be to the UIC loading gauge, I forget which one exactly but any standard European high speed train including the French double deck ones would in principle be able to use it.

I've probably read most of the documents on the HS2 website and I haven't seen anything that indicates an intention of using double deck trains. I guess if the demand is greater than predicted it might be an option, although they would to get passengers on and off at through stations in the fairly short times allowed before the next train needs to use the platform. Other things being equal a double decker needs longer dwell times because of the time for people to go up and down the stairs (particularly with luggage) as well as the fact that there are more people trying to use each door.

Classic compatibles will never be double deck trains.
 

absolutelymilk

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Single versus double deck for HS2 has been discussed on here many times before. In summary:

New HS2 lines will be to the UIC loading gauge, I forget which one exactly but any standard European high speed train including the French double deck ones would in principle be able to use it.

Yes exactly, so these larger trains built to UIC gauge would not be able to go past Crewe, while the smaller "classic compatible trains" would be.
 

NotATrainspott

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What I remember from one of the IET lectures given by HS2 Ltd representatives is that they say that the total capacity increase from double deck is simply not worth it given the costs involved. A single deck design could use the entire width and length of the train for passengers, putting every technical component in the unusable space above and below the passenger area. A double-deck design would still need to put these somewhere, and as the entire height of the train would be needed for the two passenger decks, it would mean displacing other passenger carrying areas. When you add in the space needed to make two passenger levels work, with stairs and more level changes (the lower deck on a TGV Duplex is below the entry door, requiring an additional step inside which then can't be used to carry passengers) the total capacity change really isn't that great. If double decks meant that it wouldn't be possible to reach as high a speed as quickly as a single deck train would that would add additional problems as well.

I don't think there will be any real difference between the classic compatible and captive train designs. The two will very likely be two variations of the same design so that there would be maintenance commonality and if both can take 550 passengers, they'll most likely have the same interior design as well. I wouldn't be surprised in the least if the two of them were so indistinguishable to most people that it would be possible to hot-swap in a classic-compatible for a captive train without the seat reservations changing whatsoever.

EDIT:
I don't know how feasible it would be to shrink down a standard UIC gauge train design to fit the UK. It was done for the Eurostars, so it can't be impossible. Hitachi don't actually have a UIC high speed train design at the moment, as the Shinkansen is built to a much wider and squarer loading gauge, so I really wouldn't be surprised if their current work was to design a UK-gauge Shinkansen and then simply scale it up for the UIC market.
 
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CLH

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EDIT:
I don't know how feasible it would be to shrink down a standard UIC gauge train design to fit the UK. It was done for the Eurostars, so it can't be impossible. Hitachi don't actually have a UIC high speed train design at the moment, as the Shinkansen is built to a much wider and squarer loading gauge, so I really wouldn't be surprised if their current work was to design a UK-gauge Shinkansen and then simply scale it up for the UIC market.

If you take a look at hitachi's drawings for HS2 stock, judging by the way it curves in at the bottom of the doors, you might just be right about designing around the UK gauge.

http://www.mynewsdesk.com/uk/hitachirail-eu/images/hitachi-rail-europe-to-launch-interior-concepts-for-a-british-bullet-train-at-railtex-422846
 

edwin_m

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If you take a look at hitachi's drawings for HS2 stock, judging by the way it curves in at the bottom of the doors, you might just be right about designing around the UK gauge.

http://www.mynewsdesk.com/uk/hitachirail-eu/images/hitachi-rail-europe-to-launch-interior-concepts-for-a-british-bullet-train-at-railtex-422846

Maybe so. A Eurostar looks pretty similar to a single-deck TGV so the UK loading gauge doesn't cause too many compromises (assuming double deck isn't being considered).

The main visible area of difference is the power car which has to keep to the roofline of the trailer vehicles instead of being higher on the TGVs. This becomes less of an issue with distributed traction - probably just putting the pantograph in a well instead of mounted on the roof. The pantograph well, along with moveable steps for classic UK platforms, could easily be omitted on "Continental spec" trains while keeping the same basic design.

There are I believe some more subtle differences on the Eurostar to do with keeping the bogies and running gear within the UK gauge which is much narrower than UIC below platform level. However once a builder has cracked this issue for the classic compatible there's probably no reason not to put the same gear under the captive fleet.

We do also have to be slightly cautious about the effect of articulation. For complicated reasons to do with different approaches to gauging, a relatively short body section such as a Eurostar can be close to the UIC width while remaining within UK gauge, whereas a longer one has to be quite a bit narrower in the UK. This suggests perhaps a return to articulation?

The above suggests that it may be cost-effective to purchase a single fleet to cover both "captive" and "classic compatible" requirements for Phase 1, and if so then there is a definite benefit to HS2 in terms of flexibility to serve other routes in future. However it is likely that after Phase 1 there would be no further purchases of classic compatibles until the initial fleet is life-expired - the CCs would transfer from Manchester to Newcastle services. Thus all that is needed at Phase 2 is some extra captive trains for the Manchester and Leeds routes, so with no requirement for classic compatibility these could be standard European designs.
 
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HSTEd

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What I remember from one of the IET lectures given by HS2 Ltd representatives is that they say that the total capacity increase from double deck is simply not worth it given the costs involved.

And yet the only growing-passenger-count railway to try high speed double decks [SNCF] is so delighted with them that they have not ordered a single single deck TGV trailer since the first Duplex trailers arrived.
This says something.
They were abandoned in Japan because of negative passenger growth and a desire to increase top speeds on the routes they served to generate additional passenger growth rather than any real operational issues.

A single deck design could use the entire width and length of the train for passengers, putting every technical component in the unusable space above and below the passenger area. A double-deck design would still need to put these somewhere, and as the entire height of the train would be needed for the two passenger decks, it would mean displacing other passenger carrying areas. When you add in the space needed to make two passenger levels work, with stairs and more level changes (the lower deck on a TGV Duplex is below the entry door, requiring an additional step inside which then can't be used to carry passengers) the total capacity change really isn't that great.
It is however significant - but only if you get to longer train lengths.
The 'TGV Grande Capacité' studies and the V-150 seem to indicate you could get enough installed power and tractive effort into a 400m TGV Duplex formation with only 2 power heads, at which point your train capacity ends up ridiculously enormous and the benefits of MUs fall away.

If this is truly a high capacity transport system that is what you will need.
Much will depend on what this TGV Duplex successor looks like - remember we are still a decade away from orders even being placed for trains and much can happen in that time.
SNCF wants an AGV Duplex and it will get one eventually.

If double decks meant that it wouldn't be possible to reach as high a speed as quickly as a single deck train would that would add additional problems as well.
The timetable assumptions were written on the basis of the standard train performance used for the TSIs - which the TGV Duplex and its later derivatives is easily capable of obtaining.
Acceleration won't be a major issue - after all when you get to the installed power ratings we are talking about TGVs don't far so badly compared to multiple unit trains. TGV Power cars don't contain much dead weight because traction equipment for these power levels really does weigh that much.
A TGV Duplex has power to 8 of its 26 axles after all - which isn't that bad in terms of local hauled operations. The TGV Atlantique managed 12 powered axles out of 30 - which is getting towards MU power levels.

The end bogies adjacent to the power cars are quite lightly loaded (without any traction gear) and could be tapped off the locomotive traction package quite easily - so 12 axles is easily obtained without breaking axle load limits.

I don't think there will be any real difference between the classic compatible and captive train designs. The two will very likely be two variations of the same design so that there would be maintenance commonality and if both can take 550 passengers, they'll most likely have the same interior design as well. I wouldn't be surprised in the least if the two of them were so indistinguishable to most people that it would be possible to hot-swap in a classic-compatible for a captive train without the seat reservations changing whatsoever.
In that case - why even bother with a captive design at all?
It is highly unlikely that the marginal cost of more classic compatible sets will be significantly greater than ordering a seperate fleet of captive ones - and it would be a major boon to operational flexibility if every set could go everywhere.
 
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The Planner

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remember we are still a decade away from orders even being placed for trains and much can happen in that time.
For HS2? No chance, they will have decided within 12-18 months what they want. Remember the fact they need to be built, tested and commissioned (on both the networks) and Id suspect that testing alone would be around 2022-23.

In that case - why even bother with a captive design at all?
It is highly unlikely that the marginal cost of more classic compatible sets will be significantly greater than ordering a seperate fleet of captive ones - and it would be a major boon to operational flexibility if every set could go everywhere.

Agree with this, I think there is a strong chance of there being one type. Work is going to have to be done to the existing network in various forms that allows classic compatibles to work, HS2 will have to pay for that, there has to be a tipping point where those costs make it more worthwhile to have a single type of train.
 

HSTEd

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For HS2? No chance, they will have decided within 12-18 months what they want. Remember the fact they need to be built, tested and commissioned (on both the networks) and Id suspect that testing alone would be around 2022-23.
Why?
The testing can be done with any set they can get hold of from anywhere. The trains can be proved elsewhere. After all this is the point of the TSIs.

I know ordering trains is slower than it once was but it won't take more than 2-3 years from ordering to entering service.

And this is assuming the phase one date doesn't slip more.
 
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