Units/Locos For Scrapping In The Next 10 Years

[sprinterguy]

43s ran with Mk4 stick with a 91 at the other end for a time, before DVT stock was available. Those 43s have buffers and are now GC's power cars

No they didn't: Class 91s worked with HST Mk3 stock with a HST power car at the other end, with the HST power car providing train supply to the coaching stock (and, after a short while, traction power as well).

HST power cars have only worked with mark 4 stock on a limited number of test trains, where train supply wasn't an issue.
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So what I was asking are the MK4's wired such that they could work with the class 43's?

Mark 4 coaches are run off a conventional 1000V train supply, rather than the three phase 415V system provided by HST power cars. I've no idea how difficult it would be to convert the former to the latter, but I also can't work out why you'd want to pair comparatively modern coaches with much older power cars when far more modern diesel locomotives are available.
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The 143's and 153's for that matter will get replaced by class 158's in the near future in Devon & Cornwall with the class 165/166's replacing the class 158's at Bristol so I do not see them staying around.

As Domh245 says, the majority (two thirds) of the class 143 Pacers are operated by Arriva Trains Wales, which aren't being replaced any time soon. I can see GWRs' eight being taken on by ATW to replace 142s, with a bit if a reshuffle between TOCs towards the end of the decade releasing sufficient 150s to ATW to replace the remainder of their 142s.

However, ten years is quite a broad window of time to be looking through, and I can see the 143s being gone by the end of that period: I'd expect the ATW 143s to receive a derogation to continue operating in their current condition rather than an ePacer refurbishment, given that Valley lines electrification is still set to take place in the early 2020s, and ATW can't afford the drop in capacity that would be realised by converting their Pacers to be fully disabled compliant.

 

[dgl]

Maybe re - geared was the wrong term but I know that there are Mk3 coaches that are wired up to work with class 43's and there are ones that are just wired up as loco hauled coaches.





So what I was asking are the MK4's wired such that they could work with the class 43's?

At the moment no, Mk4's use standard 1000v DC for powering the coaches whereas the 43's give out 415v 3 phase AC for the coaches.





When the 91's were being completed the Mk4 stock was not ready so they ran with modified HST rakes, replacing one of the power cars with the system wired to allow remote control of the 91 from the 43. The 43 was required to provide power to the coaches.


This did, however, cause problems as I believe the 12RP200L in the 43's did not like just being used essentially as generators well below their rated power and started to cause malfunctions, this resulted in a further rewiring to allow the 43 to be used for traction as well resulting in some very sprightly 91+43 combo sets .

 

[317666]

I agree with the earlier post that 315s could carry on on pastures new, they just need looking after. Although as much as I hate to say it, I can't see the GN 313s going anywhere after their withdrawal from the Northern City.

I'm not sure why people can see the 317s being scrapped but no-one has mentioned the 455s, considering that they're around the same age and the 455s are mechanically more out-of-date (although seemingly in much better condition). Given that SWT have carried out a major refurbishment and are in the process of re-tractioning their fleet, I'd like to see something similar on the 317s, but with an interior/traction package more suited to outer suburban work. What's 317722 up to these days?

(Obviously not biased because they're my favourite EMUs )

 

[D365]

What's 317722 up to these days?

Still in trial running with Greater Anglia. It's somewhat surprising that Eversholt has been awarding contracts far sooner for their Class 321 Renatus programme, however the 320/321/322 family is newer and amasses a greater total.
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This did, however, cause problems as the VP185's in the 43's...

Only the refurbished EMT Class 43s use VP185s. You're getting confused between that and the originally fitted 12RP200L

 

[Philip Phlopp]

Still in trial running with Greater Anglia. It's somewhat surprising that Eversholt has been awarding contracts far sooner for their Class 321 Renatus programme, however the 320/321/322 family is newer and amasses a greater total.
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Only the refurbished EMT Class 43s use VP185s. You're getting confused between that and the originally fitted 12RP200L

And if memory serves, it was traction motor glazing issues caused by dragging them around unpowered that was the issue.

 

[dgl]

Yep, thought I got the number wrong.

 

[thenorthern]

Not because people dislike them on here but given the teething troubles they have had and the relatively poor way they are maintained by CrossCountry it wouldn't surprise me if the Voyagers total life span is shorter than most trains.

 

[swt_passenger]

... the relatively poor way they are maintained by CrossCountry...

Er, CrossCountry don't maintain them, their manufacturer does.

Oh, and they just won the Golden Spanners for their class...

 

[cjmillsnun]

Er, CrossCountry don't maintain them, their manufacturer does.

Oh, and they just won the Golden Spanners for their class...

The 221s did, although I suspect the 220s are similar in terms of reliability.

for the northern's benefit, mechanically the voyagers are very well maintained. Cosmetically XCs voyagers are not so good. However a good interior refresh and a repaint solves this problem and does not affect the lifespan of the units in any way. IMHO they should be refurbed up to 222 standards and the fleets combined when the MML eventually gets wired.

 

[Tottenham Flyer]

I agree with the earlier post that 315s could carry on on pastures new, they just need looking after. Although as much as I hate to say it, I can't see the GN 313s going anywhere after their withdrawal from the Northern City.

I'm not sure why people can see the 317s being scrapped but no-one has mentioned the 455s, considering that they're around the same age and the 455s are mechanically more out-of-date (although seemingly in much better condition). Given that SWT have carried out a major refurbishment and are in the process of re-tractioning their fleet, I'd like to see something similar on the 317s, but with an interior/traction package more suited to outer suburban work. What's 317722 up to these days?

(Obviously not biased because they're my favourite EMUs )

The 317's are in a very poor condition, especially the 317/7's. Storting them for 3 years hasn't done them any favours whatsoever. Reliabillty isn't anywhere near as good as it should be.

317722 is fit for traffic again. Been looking at that today, trying to find a suitable diagram to get the thing off Ilford onto a Stratford - Bishops Stortford diagram. An additional ECS move is the only way... That'll be in traffic at some point later this week if I can get it off Ilford without it failing this time!! Watch this space...

 

[Philip Phlopp]

The 221s did, although I suspect the 220s are similar in terms of reliability.

for the northern's benefit, mechanically the voyagers are very well maintained. Cosmetically XCs voyagers are not so good. However a good interior refresh and a repaint solves this problem and does not affect the lifespan of the units in any way. IMHO they should be refurbed up to 222 standards and the fleets combined when the MML eventually gets wired.

The problem is they're too short, have too few seats, too little standing room and cost too much to operate for each passenger they carry.

I suspect a reasonable business case could be put together to replace them with bi-mode AT300 units, which might spur the ROSCO and Bombardier on to doing something about interior design and train length. They will need something done in the medium term - reformed into longer sets or semi permanently coupled together, something of that order.

 

[mr_jrt]

Would there be any use in moving the GN 313s to Southern to lengthen the coastway services?

Alternatively, send the Merseyrail down to southern, and stick the pans back on the 313s and send them off to work on some of the newly electrified lines. No idea which, mind you, but having old electric trains is surely better than having no electric trains at all...thinking about it, could those 313s find any use with LM? They could run a 2x3 car train on the Abbey Line, for a start, and if a unit breaks down you could still run the remaining unit that way.

 

[Philip Phlopp]

Would there be any use in moving the GN 313s to Southern to lengthen the coastway services?

Alternatively, send the Merseyrail down to southern, and stick the pans back on the 313s and send them off to work on some of the newly electrified lines. No idea which, mind you, but having old electric trains is surely better than having no electric trains at all...thinking about it, could those 313s find any use with LM? They could run a 2x3 car train on the Abbey Line, for a start, and if a unit breaks down you could still run the remaining unit that way.

The PEP units (313s, 507s etc) are suffering badly from corrosion to their aluminium bodies. They were also quite badly built originally (think British Leyland-era cars and you won't go too far wrong) - I've heard various people suggest the wiring was done by the colour blind, with different wire colours doing different things on different units.

There's not an abundance of money in the system but there is enough to get rid of the oldest EMUs and replace them with new build or cascaded stock, there comes a point where keeping the oldest units in service just gets to be too costly, they get too unreliable (under a regime with unreliability can lead to enormous TDA costs) or put people off from travelling.

 

[scarby]

I wouldn't expect to see any 1st or 2nd generation locos still in use outside of heritage charters.

I'm not that genned up on it but aren't there more 37s set to come back into service that are having a heavy overhaul?

Though of course 10 years is a fair old while, they seem to be considered very suitable for test/engineering trains, so will presumably be around for some time to come.

 

[Domh245]

I'm not that genned up on it but aren't there more 37s set to come back into service that are having a heavy overhaul?

Though of course 10 years is a fair old while, they seem to be considered very suitable for test/engineering trains, so will presumably be around for some time to come.

But with a seeming surplus of cheap, moden, reliable 66s about to appear with the downturn in coal work, it isn't beyond reason to expect the 66s to work these trains instead of the heritage fleet

 

[59CosG95]

But with a seeming surplus of cheap, moden, reliable 66s about to appear with the downturn in coal work, it isn't beyond reason to expect the 66s to work these trains instead of the heritage fleet

37s are much more versatile machines than 66s, hence their regular appearance on test trains. Sheds do regularly appear on engineering trains though.

 

[3141]

It would be interesting to come back to this thread in 2025 and compare the prophecies with the reality.

Back in about 2005 a large number of HSTs were in store, having been withdrawn from Virgin West Coast, Cross Country and Midland Mainline, and there were concerns that they might be scrapped. Alistair Darling was Transport Secretary at the time, and he said it wouldn't matter if they were scrapped, they had been replaced by new trains, that was how the market worked, and so on. Don't things change!!!

 

[Philip Phlopp]

37s are much more versatile machines than 66s, hence their regular appearance on test trains. Sheds do regularly appear on engineering trains though.

HS2 construction will require pretty much all the Class 66 capacity released by finishing with coal haulage, probably all of the Class 60s that can be reactivated, and will perhaps even need a few services to be converted to electric where possible.

 

[61653 HTAFC]

HS2 construction will require pretty much all the Class 66 capacity released by finishing with coal haulage, probably all of the Class 60s that can be reactivated, and will perhaps even need a few services to be converted to electric where possible.

If 58s and 37s were good enough for France and Spain, they're good enough for our high-speed line construction too!

(Don't worry, I'm not serious!)

 

[The Ham]

The problem is they're too short, have too few seats, too little standing room and cost too much to operate for each passenger they carry.

I suspect a reasonable business case could be put together to replace them with bi-mode AT300 units, which might spur the ROSCO and Bombardier on to doing something about interior design and train length. They will need something done in the medium term - reformed into longer sets or semi permanently coupled together, something of that order.

If XC get 10 EMU's for south coast to Manchester and some 221's from ICWC then it would be possible to covert all the 4 coach 220's into a mixture of 6 and 7 coach trains (8 sets of 7 and 7 sets of 6 or 12 sets of 7 and 2 sets if 6). Although there could be a good case made for keeping some 220's with 4 coaches to be used as crowd busters in the core by being paired with other units.

A 7 coach set would (assuming that each end coach was first class, although it could be configured difficultly and still be the same) would result in a train with 95% of the capacity of a pair of 220's.

That would mean that XC could end up with:
12 x 6 or 7 coach EMU's (replacing 221's)
12 x 7 coach 220's (replacing 221's)
2 x 6 coach 220's (one spare and one which replaces a 220)
33 x 5 coach 221's (23 from XC and 10 from ICWC, replacing all bar one of the 220's)

The remaining 10 sets of 221's could then be reformed into 4 sets with 9 coaches (with one spare coach and one coach lengthening the one 4 coach 221 to be 5 coaches long. That would almost replace the XC HST's. Although with the much longer sets (bearing in mind that the rest of the XC fleet has more capacity so they are in less demand).

In summary, with just Voyagers and 12 new build EMU's XC could see a significant increase in capacity over the existing (without increasing the total number of units by many) including some sets which are running permanently with nearly the same capacity as a pair of 220's and with nearly enough 221's to replace every service run by 220's (bearing in mind less will need to run paired up) with the remaining 220 replaced by a 6 coach 220. That is without ANY 222's.

 

[BestWestern]

Mark 4 coaches are run off a conventional 1000V train supply, rather than the three phase 415V system provided by HST power cars. I've no idea how difficult it would be to convert the former to the latter, but I also can't work out why you'd want to pair comparatively modern coaches with much older power cars when far more modern diesel locomotives are available.

I'm not necessarily suggesting it's viable, but I can see why 43s might be more attractive in that application than something else. Built for 'top and tailing', so no need to plod about with a redundant loco being dragged around at the back end all the time; power units newer than most locos in the UK; and they'll be available and, presumably, cheap. If you were indeed looking for diesel traction for your rakes of MK4s, 43s are a reasonable suggestion. I'd suggest you'd probably be better off modifying the power cars to give the required output rather than rewiring all the coaching stock, though.

Somebody suggested 150s for withdrawal; they'll be spending probably the next four years all being gradually brought up to 2020 standards, withdrawal five years later is unlikely I would think.

 

[LLivery]

483s? How long can they possibly go on for? Many 455s are planned to be withdrawn by GTR but I just can't see them being scrapped unless they become awfully unreliable.

 

[D365]

Many 455s are planned to be withdrawn by GTR but I just can't see them being scrapped unless they become awfully unreliable.

False. There are no plans for withdrawal, but a decrease in reliability is predicted and therefore more of the current diagrams will be serviced by Class 377s in the future.

 

[gimmea50anyday]

I expect the next thing to go 90 050 will finally be put out of its misery!

Next in line I would expect to be the PEP heritage stock, 313, 314, 315, 507 and 508, but they will all be pending franchise changes so may still get a few good years out of them.

Think the 483's are also slated depending on when suitable gague stock becomes available to replace them.

Also the pacer fleet will also be knocked off soon due to prm/tsi requirements.

As for mk3 related stock 150's are showing their age but 317/455 being electric will typically retain longer lives. Can expect them to be floating around for a while yet with possible retractioning packages in the pipeline along with the 321 fleets. Meanwhile the 319's are already seeing transfer to Northern. i wouldnt be suprised if the HST will keep going and going such is the high regard held for them, not bad for a tie-over concept before mass introduction of the APT!

442's probably face the most uncertainty and could even go before the PEP family as nothing suitable for them work wise and knackered traction equipment renders them useless on 3rd rail territory. TPE work with diesel traction seems to be the only viable option but will need traction equipment stripping out, cabs can be retained tho and used. 442's were designed to and can be traction hauled by conventional locomotives although will connect far easier with bagpipe fitted traction (i.e 33/1, 73 and SR/BR heritage stock up to 457) than other types.

The 316 was the a/c traction prototype for the networkers. It used the driving cars and the intermediate trailers from the 210 with a pan car from a 313 when tested under the wires. As a DC unit it was classified 457. The 313 was restricted to watford DC workings as a result until the pan car was returned to its unit. There is a trailer car surviving in 5912 while one of the driving cars has now been converted into a trailer and fitted into 5913. The remaining driving car is preserved at Coventry. There are not known to be any other remaining 210 vehicles in existence.

 

[Juniper Driver]

I'm not sure why people can see the 317s being scrapped but no-one has mentioned the 455s, considering that they're around the same age and the 455s are mechanically more out-of-date (although seemingly in much better condition). Given that SWT have carried out a major refurbishment and are in the process of re-tractioning their fleet, I'd like to see something similar on the 317s, but with an interior/traction package more suited to outer suburban work. What's 317722 up to these days?

(Obviously not biased because they're my favourite EMUs )

Yup I could see 455/456's going as technically they are out of date,possibly the 456/s first.Suppose after the 707's arrive and their future plans for more stock will tell us.

 

[Philip Phlopp]

Yup I could see 455/456's going as technically they are out of date,possibly the 456/s first.Suppose after the 707's arrive and their future plans for more stock will tell us.

Your 455s are being re-tractioned though, and they're not exactly unreliable as they are, despite very old EE507 traction motors and associated camshaft controllers.

 

[tbtc]

It would be interesting to come back to this thread in 2025 and compare the prophecies with the reality

True.

Back in February 2010 I started this thread: http://www.railforums.co.uk/showthread.php?t=30484 - very little has changed since then (i.e. we've not seen many units withdrawn) - however, our expectations seem a lot lower than they did back then - it seemed crazy to think that Pacers would last into the 2020s (considering there'd be these new-fangled 172s coming along to make a dent in the "Provincial" DMU fleet)...

...now, it looks likely that some derogations (or ePacers) will be necessary into the next decade.

Hmm, that makes me think... one class that may be withdrawn in the next ten years is the 278s?

2010 seemed a more optimistic time in a lot of ways - you'd have laughed at the idea of 442s on Transpennine services back then - things seem a bit bleaker now.

 

[bramling]

Your 455s are being re-tractioned though, and they're not exactly unreliable as they are, despite very old EE507 traction motors and associated camshaft controllers.

I could see the Southern 455s going sooner rather than later, as they're not having replacement traction packages, and another batch of Electrostar-type units would give Southern a more-or-less uniform fleet - apart from the various differences between all the 'new' units.

Can't see SWT needing any more 455s with the new Desiros coming on stream, and with SWT suburban being a 10-car railway. One wonders if Southeastern could take them to make up some 12-car trains? In that respect they are more useful than the 376s. There's no other home for 455s.

 

[gimmea50anyday]

455's could conceivably be used on merseyrail....

 

[SeanG]

Could they work in multiple with 507/8s?