ASLEF and RMT agree: no more DOO or DCO

[387star]

[/QUOTE]RMT and ASLEF executives have signed a joint statement declaring no more DOO or DCO


Is this being discussed anywhere? Link: https://www.rmt.org.uk/news/rmt-and-aslef-executives-sign-joint-statement/

of what significance is this?

joint ASLEF / RMT Statement opposing Driver Only Operation / Driver Controlled Operation

“We are completely opposed to Driver Only Operation and its forms, including Driver Controlled Operation (DCO) / Driver Door Operation (DDO), throughout the network.
We firmly believe this method of operation is less safe for passengers and the workforce and our unions will not agree to the extension of DOO or DCO /DDO under any circumstances.
This includes recent proposals for DOO by Great Western in respect of the new IEP trains and the Governments proposals for DCO for the next Northern Rail franchise.
The responsibility of the driver of the train is to drive, which requires 100% focus. It is less safe for both the driver and passengers if the driver is distracted by additional duties such as protecting the platform train interface. The Guard / Conductor should retain responsibility for door operation.
We are particularly concerned for example that there have been a number of incidents in the last year across all sectors where even more pressure has been placed on drivers rather than questioning the safety of DOO.
We are also opposed to DOO and DCO/DDO because its introduction would remove the current guarantee that passengers will always have a safety critical safety second person on the train who can not only deal with emergencies but can also provide general reassurance and assistance to passengers.
It is also essential for the safety of both the driver and passengers to have the guarantee of a Guard / Conductor on the train to protect the train driver and passengers in the event of driver incapacity. This was demonstrated by a recent incident at Sutton Weaver where a driver received a severe electrical shock and was assisted by the Guard who was able to call for the emergency services and accompany a doctor who was travelling on the train to provide emergency first aid.
With record passengers numbers we now need more rail staff, not less. Services for passengers should be improved by investment in modern railway infrastructure and rolling stock - not by dismissing and deskilling Guards and placing event more responsibility on the driver.
We will campaign in unity to oppose any extension of DOO and DCO/DDO and to seek to explore ways of reversing it where it has been introduced. This will include making our views clear to the employers, government and other politicians.”

Mick Whelan
ASLEF General Secretary

Mick Cash
RMT General Secretary

 

[Carlisle]

It will be interesting to see how this pans out considering there are supposed to be long term plans for DCD on Merseyrail, parts of Northern , FGW and possibly elsewhere too

 

[northwichcat]

of what significance is this?

The unions don't decide what or what isn't introduced and I doubt any proposals will be completely reversed whatever the unions say or do. Proposals may get delayed or revised (as we've seen with the Night tube.) However, I think the best they can hope for with Northern is an assurance there will always be at least 2 members of staff on board and that the second member of staff will be trained on safety duties but will have to accept the driver will do the doors. At present with Northern the conductor has to choose whether to risk delaying the train or to get to the doors in good time and potentially allow people to avoid paying for their journey.

 

[Bletchleyite]

It will be interesting to see how this pans out considering there are supposed to be long term plans for DCD on Merseyrail, parts of Northern , FGW and possibly elsewhere too

The Merseyrail plan is for full DOO(P) when the new stock arrives, presumably using bodyside cameras, not just driver door control.
--- old post above --- --- new post below ---

At present with Northern the conductor has to choose whether to risk delaying the train or to get to the doors in good time and potentially allow people to avoid paying for their journey.

I think that is a side issue - personally I believe it should be solved by the city areas of Northern applying a full Penalty Fares system with off-train ticketing (ticket offices and TVMs as appropriate) at all stations, as well as an increase in the use of ticket barriers (staffed by properly trained railway staff, not security contractors) at likely destination stations.

 

[Moonshot]

The Merseyrail plan is for full DOO(P) when the new stock arrives, presumably using bodyside cameras, not just driver door control.
--- old post above --- --- new post below ---


I think that is a side issue - personally I believe it should be solved by the city areas of Northern applying a full Penalty Fares system with off-train ticketing (ticket offices and TVMs as appropriate) at all stations, as well as an increase in the use of ticket barriers (staffed by properly trained railway staff, not security contractors) at likely destination stations.

Whar would be the business case for installing TVMs at stations such as Denton and Reddish South, which only get 1 train per week?

 

[coppercapped]

We firmly believe...

So it is a question of religion rather than analysis?

(My dictionary gives for 'Believe' : "accept that (something) is true, especially without proof").

 

[A-driver]

So it is a question of religion rather than analysis?



(My dictionary gives for 'Believe' : "accept that (something) is true, especially without proof").

Don't be so silly and pedantic. 'Believe' and 'belief' are words used almost daily by politicians, newsreaders, business leaders etc and dosnt discredit what they say.
--- old post above --- --- new post below ---

The unions don't decide what or what isn't introduced and I doubt any proposals will be completely reversed whatever the unions say or do. Proposals may get delayed or revised (as we've seen with the Night tube.) However, I think the best they can hope for with Northern is an assurance there will always be at least 2 members of staff on board and that the second member of staff will be trained on safety duties but will have to accept the driver will do the doors. At present with Northern the conductor has to choose whether to risk delaying the train or to get to the doors in good time and potentially allow people to avoid paying for their journey.

At the end of the day, if the unions refuse to agree to DOO then their drivers will not be operating any doors meaning the trains will simply run around without letting people on/off if a guard isn't provided.

 

[SPADTrap]

So it is a question of religion rather than analysis?

(My dictionary gives for 'Believe' : "accept that (something) is true, especially without proof").

What are you on about?!

 

[83G/84D]

The RMT were due to meet Mark Hopwood of GWR to discuss this and other issues regarding the current dispute earlier this week. I have not heard how the meeting went yet.

 

[Juniper Driver]

The responsibility of the driver of the train is to drive, which requires 100% focus. It is less safe for both the driver and passengers if the driver is distracted by additional duties such as protecting the platform train interface. The Guard / Conductor should retain responsibility for door operation.

Agree 100%.

 

[HarleyDavidson]

Put it like this it's going to cost mega millions to implement (on SWT) anyway.

You're going to have to:

1. Guarantee 100% coverage, 100% of the time on GSM-R, it's currently nowhere near that.

2. Reinstall all of the door controls & wiring looms on all of the 455s.

3. Program all of the 444/450's to use the internal door buttons by the drivers position.

4. Install thousands of HD CCTV cameras, HD colour monitors & vandalproof mirrors on all of the platforms.

5. Pay off all of the guards.

6. Retrain all of the drivers on all of the procedures

All of that's going to cost serious millions and ultimately who's going to be paying for it? Simple... YOU, the farepayer.

Then you have the thorny issue of who's going to protect a train involved in an accident where the driver is incapacitated, especially if it involves a fire or HT cables carrying anywhere between 750 & 25kV.

We also know that the GSM-R isn't failure proof too, because that derailment in Kent, where the train hit & killed a cow, disabled it and it was only the fast actions of the driver using a mobile stopped it escalating into something a lot bigger.

So far they've been lucky with DOO-P, but statistically one day a major incident will occur and people will get killed because they didn't know what to do and got out of the train and got owned by a passing train or fallen cable.

Hey, never mind most are just expendable office bods. Meh!

 

[bunnahabhain]

The Northern guards revenue issue is easily solved by allowing them to work from any panel in the train and also putting in panels at every door (or alternate door) like they have on other TOCs. I work the same stock as Northern and have no issues with covering revenue and doing the doors in a timely manner, so it's more a case of the management at Northern preventing their guards from being more efficient.

 

[coppercapped]

Don't be so silly and pedantic. 'Believe' and 'belief' are words used almost daily by politicians, newsreaders, business leaders etc and dosnt discredit what they say..

I am being serious. The original quote says

We firmly believe this method of operation is less safe for passengers and the workforce

Has their statement been proven?

If it has - then they could have said so.

If it hasn't - then the statement is moot at best.

If they don't want DOO extended in any form then simply say so - but don't represent that the reason for their position is to do with safety if there are no data to support their argument.

 

[The Ham]

So it is a question of religion rather than analysis?

(My dictionary gives for 'Believe' : "accept that (something) is true, especially without proof").

As the rate of incidents are so low for any method of train dispach it is difficult to " prove" either way.

A case in point is TfL gave stats that show that the rate of incidents for Driver dispach is lower than gaurd dispached.

 

[LLivery]

You may think I'm crazy but I feel like its only a matter of time before a second member of staff is re-introduced on all London services. DfT and TfLs possition maybe anti-guard, but positions change with new governments, even within the same government term. The calls keep coming for more accessible railway staff, women only carriages, more policing, checking tickets and of course like said above in emergencies. LO and GTR staffing stations first train to last may be good, but that doesn't help if a DOO service driver is seriously injured in the middle of nowhere or there are disruptives/vandals on-board. Honestly I don't mind having no staff at some stations like Knockholt or Emerson Park 100% of the time, but onboard trains just seem different.

Whether that second member of staff does door duties is up for debate, but I can't see this zero staff visible nonsense carrying on much longer. Its only right unions have said this. More and more pressure for second staff members will build.

 

[Matt Taylor]

Put it like this it's going to cost mega millions to implement (on SWT) anyway.

You're going to have to:

1. Guarantee 100% coverage, 100% of the time on GSM-R, it's currently nowhere near that.

2. Reinstall all of the door controls & wiring looms on all of the 455s.

3. Program all of the 444/450's to use the internal door buttons by the drivers position.

4. Install thousands of HD CCTV cameras, HD colour monitors & vandalproof mirrors on all of the platforms.

5. Pay off all of the guards.

6. Retrain all of the drivers on all of the procedures

All of that's going to cost serious millions and ultimately who's going to be paying for it? Simple... YOU, the farepayer.

Then you have the thorny issue of who's going to protect a train involved in an accident where the driver is incapacitated, especially if it involves a fire or HT cables carrying anywhere between 750 & 25kV.

We also know that the GSM-R isn't failure proof too, because that derailment in Kent, where the train hit & killed a cow, disabled it and it was only the fast actions of the driver using a mobile stopped it escalating into something a lot bigger.

So far they've been lucky with DOO-P, but statistically one day a major incident will occur and people will get killed because they didn't know what to do and got out of the train and got owned by a passing train or fallen cable.

Hey, never mind most are just expendable office bods. Meh!

Depends where you work. It looks darker for those based nearer London than those of us out in the sticks, especially the non-commercial guys. Bringing in double my gross wages in ticket revenue on average per month really helps, but there's more to it than that. I can quite easily save a minute here or there by judicious use of my whistle, being ready for wheelchairs etc, being proactive with any issue that might impact on station dwell times etc and this can save SWT quite a decent sum over the course of a year-far in excess of my salary in fact. So I can justify my position, and that's before even considering the safety issues and customer service issue that are in my favour.

There may be some consolidation in the number of guard depots but I believe that commercial guards will still have a place on board in a few years although under a new job title and slightly different responsibilities maybe. As for the non commercial guys, they need to start adding value to their job, make themselves indispensable or else they will go the same way as the chaps on LO.

 

[387star]

Isn't southeastern metro often reported as the worst DOO operation in so far as the atmosphere at unstaffed stations and on unstaffed trains is hostile especially late at night

 

[HarleyDavidson]

Depends where you work. It looks darker for those based nearer London than those of us out in the sticks, especially the non-commercial guys. Bringing in double my gross wages in ticket revenue on average per month really helps, but there's more to it than that. I can quite easily save a minute here or there by judicious use of my whistle, being ready for wheelchairs etc, being proactive with any issue that might impact on station dwell times etc and this can save SWT quite a decent sum over the course of a year-far in excess of my salary in fact. So I can justify my position, and that's before even considering the safety issues and customer service issue that are in my favour.

There may be some consolidation in the number of guard depots but I believe that commercial guards will still have a place on board in a few years although under a new job title and slightly different responsibilities maybe. As for the non commercial guys, they need to start adding value to their job, make themselves indispensable or else they will go the same way as the chaps on LO.

So what happens then with a DOO service and a wheelchair passenger turns up? I'm not getting out of my cab, especially inside the M25, I've seen kids with weapons on some of the stations & I could be attacked. Sorry, the wheelchair user would be staying on the platform, especially as the majority of stations (West Byfleet-Esher, Chessington line, Epsom line stations) are unstaffed after mid afternoon/early evening.

 

[northwichcat]

So what happens then with a DOO service and a wheelchair passenger turns up?

This is why there's a difference between DCO and DOO. DOO doesn't really work unless every station is staffed*, DCO would have a second person on board who could assist the wheelchair passengers at unstaffed stations.

* I'm not saying it's only used where every station is staffed, just it only properly works if every station is staffed.
--- old post above --- --- new post below ---

I think that is a side issue - personally I believe it should be solved by the city areas of Northern applying a full Penalty Fares system with off-train ticketing (ticket offices and TVMs as appropriate) at all stations, as well as an increase in the use of ticket barriers (staffed by properly trained railway staff, not security contractors) at likely destination stations.

They would need a lot of investment. A part time ticket office and a single card only TVM (which will be out-of-order once a week) is what a significant number of Northern stations with good patronage have. Merseyside is lucky in how many staffed stations it has, other areas aren't.

 

[HH]

Don't be so silly and pedantic. 'Believe' and 'belief' are words used almost daily by politicians, newsreaders, business leaders etc and dosnt discredit what they say.

Oddly enough I have several guides to writing that have been passed out by franchise bidders. They are unanimous in condemning use of the word; essentially it does imply that you are lacking proof to back up an assertion.

It's an emotive term, which is why it's favoured by those purveyors of honesty, politicians and journalists.

 

[Bletchleyite]

They would need a lot of investment. A part time ticket office and a single card only TVM (which will be out-of-order once a week) is what a significant number of Northern stations with good patronage have. Merseyside is lucky in how many staffed stations it has, other areas aren't.

Even a Metrolink style approach of two cash and card TVMs per station but all ticket offices except the main stations closed to pay for it would be better than the status quo. Single guards flogging tickets and doing doors belongs on rural branch lines; if you're going to have guards on city networks there simply isn't time for them to do a proper job of revenue while also dealing with their operational and safety responsibilities.
--- old post above --- --- new post below ---

Isn't southeastern metro often reported as the worst DOO operation in so far as the atmosphere at unstaffed stations and on unstaffed trains is hostile especially late at night

If it's that bad a single guard would have no effect on the situation as he would probably stay in his cab for his own safety. More CCTV and security patrols on trains as well as stations would probably provide a better improvement.

After all the New York Subway has always had guards and still does. They didn't stop it being a very unsafe feeling place. What stopped that (or at least reduced it) was stronger policing.

 

[HarleyDavidson]

Oddly enough I have several guides to writing that have been passed out by franchise bidders. They are unanimous in condemning use of the word; essentially it does imply that you are lacking proof to back up an assertion.

It's an emotive term, which is why it's favoured by those purveyors of honesty, politicians and journalists.

The use of Truth, honesty & politician in one sentence, isn't that an oxymoron if ever there was one!

 

[HH]

The use of Truth, honesty & politician in one sentence, isn't that an oxymoron if ever there was one!

With an emphasis on the word moron, perhaps?

 

[HarleyDavidson]

With some of the politicians & councillors around these parts, moron would be entirely appropriate.

 

[northwichcat]

Even a Metrolink style approach of two cash and card TVMs per station but all ticket offices except the main stations closed to pay for it would be better than the status quo.

I'm not sure about that. A staff presence can prevent criminal activities being carried out at stations. Removing ticket offices may result in more vandalism, more rubbish being dumped on the tracks, more people crossing the tracks where it's not permitted etc.

 

[ComUtoR]

If it's that bad a single guard would have no effect on the situation as he would probably stay in his cab for his own safety. More CCTV and security patrols on trains as well as stations would probably provide a better improvement.

Glad to see you have such a low opinion of staff.

For the CTV comment I would simply say that it is worthless and is used more for conviction rather than prevention. CCTV is notoriously bad. We have security on board and it is hit and miss at best.

 

[Matt Taylor]

The days of getting paid to sit around in the back cab all day are long gone and those who perpetuate that behaviour without good reasons are helping drag the rest of us down with them, they are in effect another vote in favour of DOO.

I want to see a second member of staff on every train, with a safety responsibility too, I want to make that clear.

 

[Bletchleyite]

Glad to see you have such a low opinion of staff.

That was not the intention - my point was that often guards on late night inner city services of that kind genuinely, and for good reason, fear for their safety, and as a result entirely understandably remain in the cab. No insult to them intended.

Though indeed if things get bad, driver+guard is better than just driver...

For the CTV comment I would simply say that it is worthless and is used more for conviction rather than prevention. CCTV is notoriously bad. We have security on board and it is hit and miss at best.

I think CCTV *can* be an effective deterrent, at least to some extent. And successful convictions are a deterrent to criminal behaviour, again at least to some extent. Some people are put off crime by the chance of being caught, not because they know it's wrong. CCTV increases the chance of being caught.
--- old post above --- --- new post below ---

I'm not sure about that. A staff presence can prevent criminal activities being carried out at stations. Removing ticket offices may result in more vandalism, more rubbish being dumped on the tracks, more people crossing the tracks where it's not permitted etc.

I sort of see that point, but if you look at Merseyrail most ticket offices (which are what is staffed) are very remote from the platforms. So all the ticket staff are doing security-wise is giving an impression (not a worthless one, to be fair), and providing someone to run to for help, the latter being perhaps a little less significant now it's 2015 and not 1995, and everyone has a mobile phone from which the Police could be called if necessary.

I think they can (always used to be able to) see the CCTV and act on it directly, as well, making it a bit more valuable than recording-only CCTV. But that could also be provided by a CCTV control room, particularly if that control room could also make rather personalised PA announcements pointing out that someone doing something untoward is being watched.

 

[ajb690]

This is why there's a difference between DCO and DOO. DOO doesn't really work unless every station is staffed*, DCO would have a second person on board who could assist the wheelchair passengers at unstaffed stations.

Honest question from some self loading freight with no industry experience. I can see how DOO saves money in salaries etc (which I presume is why TOCs want to implement it?); but if you have a second member of staff on board anyway, what's the advantage of DCO or any other variant?

Drew

 

[455driver]

Would this be a good time to mention that the ASLEF DOO charter (or whatever it's called) states that all current DOO services and routes will be revisited from time to time to see if DOO operation is still appropriate, now bearing in mind the increase in passenger numbers on most DOO routes I wonder whether a revisit might be a good idea?