Early Departure Complaint

[Xenophon PCDGS]

Genuine question: if the railway industry cannot guarantee the accuracy of its own clocks, by precisely what device should passengers measure the timeliness of trains? For example, as I cannot depend on the station clock, how should I be able to tell when the 20:10 Euston to Crewe is actually due to depart? I imagine using my own watch creates all sorts of problems to do with synchronisity!

I though all this was sorted out in 1852..

 

[Haywain]

Does the clock display on a TMS get synchronized at all? Is there a "talking clock" GSM-R channel that driver's can use to get the accurate current time?

Except for DOO routes/services, the driver doesn't go anywhere until the signals and the guard give him the appropriate indications. Even on DOO routes some stations have dispatchers where the same would apply.

 

[185]

device did the driver use

Supposed to use the speaking clock via the NRN radio on the dashboard to set watches. Bet that got cut back.

 

[Bletchleyite]

That would be 5 minutes by whose watch / clock?

Wouldn't really matter, as it wouldn't be a cut-off, just a bit of leeway so people don't have a valid complaint if the train leaves very slightly early and they miss it. Just like easyJet say "you must be at the gate 30 minutes before departure" when the gate is rarely even open that early at most airports.
--- old post above --- --- new post below ---

I'm probably misunderstanding your point here, but official connection times should reflect the minimum time to transfer from one train to another, not to pad out journeys because the reliability of the service can't be guarenteed.

If you had the "must be on the platform 5 minutes before" rule, connections would have to be time to change plus 5 minutes. Though 5 minutes *is* tight if it isn't same or cross platform. Walking from the far end of a 12 car set, over a crowded bridge and onto the other platform, for an average person may be tight.

 

[AM9]

Wouldn't really matter, as it wouldn't be a cut-off, just a bit of leeway so people don't have a valid complaint if the train leaves very slightly early and they miss it. Just like easyJet say "you must be at the gate 30 minutes before departure" when the gate is rarely even open that early at most airports.
--- old post above --- --- new post below ---


If you had the "must be on the platform 5 minutes before" rule, connections would have to be time to change plus 5 minutes. Though 5 minutes *is* tight if it isn't same or cross platform. Walking from the far end of a 12 car set, over a crowded bridge and onto the other platform, for an average person may be tight.

Then TOCs would have to stop advertising point A to be just 30 minutes from point B as passengers would need to add in the mandatory early arrival time.
Everybody here seems to be dancing around the nub of the question. IF a train leaves 2 (or 3 or 4) minutes early, should the TOC accept rersponsibility and recompense the passenger?
Several posts seem to be making excuses why a train might be released early despite timepieces being designed and nearly perfected centuries ago. Of course, the passenger also needs to carry one of these imperfect devices to arrive on time as well.
Other posts are making the point that it rarely happens. No problem then, just admit liability and compensate the few customers affected properly.
Would a customer who forgot to buy a ticket be allowed to just say "sorry, - it happens", then walk away without penalty?

 

[Clip]

Seems like a sensible aspiration of any modern organization to me (even if it can't be pulled off all the time).

.

And that is what we aim for all the time - I was being sarcastic because some people on here just can not simply accept that things can and do go wrong.

 

[Bletchleyite]

And that is what we aim for all the time - I was being sarcastic because some people on here just can not simply accept that things can and do go wrong.

They can and they do - and when they do the passenger shouldn't have to pay for them. I don't believe the delay is the complaint here, it's the need to buy a new ticket due to the original one being an Advance.

With the rules as they are, if the train did indeed depart earlier than the advertised "doors closed" time the railway should refund the additional ticket and that should be that, IMO.

 

[CheesyChips]

Then TOCs would have to stop advertising point A to be just 30 minutes from point B as passengers would need to add in the mandatory early arrival time.

No, most other forms of transport can reasonably expect the passenger to arrive before the departure time. Airlines have clear mandatory cut offs for check in but still advertise the flight's departure time.

 

[Bletchleyite]

No, most other forms of transport can reasonably expect the passenger to arrive before the departure time. Airlines have clear mandatory cut offs for check in but still advertise the flight's departure time.

And, comparable with the railway perhaps, they advertise a "gate closes" time at which the gate normally doesn't close (but if you arrive before it you won't ever miss the flight).

 

[Dent]

Actually, I think this issue could well be best solved by recognising that trains are occasionally a minute or two early because watches and clocks aren't perfect, and simply clearly advertising that to guarantee travel you must be on the platform 5 minutes[1] before the scheduled departure time.

Wouldn't really matter, as it wouldn't be a cut-off, just a bit of leeway so people don't have a valid complaint if the train leaves very slightly early and they miss it.

I find it rather worrying that anyone suggests a "solution" to a failure by a TOC is to impose an additional burden on the customer, and try to think of ways of leaving the customer with "no valid complaint" when a TOC does something wrong.

Trains should not depart early, and if they do then any customer left behind absolutely has a valid complaint.

 

[Llanigraham]

I find it rather worrying that anyone suggests a "solution" to a failure by a TOC is to impose an additional burden on the customer, and try to think of ways of leaving the customer with "no valid complaint" when a TOC does something wrong.

Trains should not depart early, and if they do then any customer left behind absolutely has a valid complaint.

And we have now gone full circle in this discussion!
How do you know that the train has departed early?
And what "additional burden" is this putting on the passenger?
All that has been suggested is that the passenger arrives at the station at least 5 minutes before the train is advertised as leaving, just like you have to do for some other modes of transport.

 

[furnessvale]

And that is what we aim for all the time - I was being sarcastic because some people on here just can not simply accept that things can and do go wrong.

When I worked for BR years ago, I can remember "punctuality days" when everybody tried to make the trains run on time. Even then I remember commenting that I thought we were supposed to do that every day but apparently not!

 

[Dent]

How do you know that the train has departed early?

I don't profess to know anything about any particular service, but since the suggestion didn't claim to be specific to one particular service anyway this is irrelevant.

And what "additional burden" is this putting on the passenger?
All that has been suggested is that the passenger arrives at the station at least 5 minutes before the train is advertised as leaving, just like you have to do for some other modes of transport.

As I assumed would be obvious, it would put the burden of having to arrive 5 minutes earlier on the passenger.

 

[miami]

I would guess the man on the clapmham omnibus would assume the clock on the platform would be the clock the train leaves at. Poor form if a train pulls out 3 minutes before the neighbouring clock says too, and certainly should be grounds for compensation for anyone missing it.

 

[Llanigraham]

I don't profess to know anything about any particular service, but since the suggestion didn't claim to be specific to one particular service anyway this is irrelevant.



As I assumed would be obvious, it would put the burden of having to arrive 5 minutes earlier on the passenger.

Err?
Why is irrelevant? I was making a general point about the method people use to "record" time, and generally that is not accurate.

What is so difficult in expecting people to arrive at the platform at least 5 minutes before their train is due to depart?
As said, plenty of other transport systems expect you to do that, as do non-transport things. If people can't do a simple thing like that then I'm sorry but they need to take some responsibility for their actions.

I suggest you read through this thread from the start but the same things are being repeated.

 

[AM9]

Err?
Why is irrelevant? I was making a general point about the method people use to "record" time, and generally that is not accurate.

What is so difficult in expecting people to arrive at the platform at least 5 minutes before their train is due to depart?
As said, plenty of other transport systems expect you to do that, as do non-transport things. If people can't do a simple thing like that then I'm sorry but they need to take some responsibility for their actions.

I suggest you read through this thread from the start but the same things are being repeated.

So we have a situation where the railway can't always run to its own published timetable (note that we are not talking about late running where it is frequently due to factors outside the TOC or NR's control). The passenger reads the published timetable as the only source of information about running times available to them. The timetable does not make any specific reference to early running, therefore if a train runs early, it is either due to specific exceptional conditions (e.g. engineering, weather etc.) or the railway has failed to deliver what the passenger bought into when they purchased their ticket(s). Therefore the supplier has broken the conditions of the deal and should expect to compensate the customer according to actual losses and/or the delay rules in force at the time.
If the railway cannot tell the correct time when attempting to run a service, it must publish a defined margin that the passenger must allow as a condition of travel, (and take a lambasting from the media, local politicians et al for increasing journey times across the network).
Why some here are defending a situation where the passenger is supposed to turn up early in case trains just happen to run early, but if they guess the amount of time wrong then it is their fault and any delay/additional cost is their problem, I can't understand. Most reasonable passengers accept that mistakes can occur occasionally, but don't expect to suffer from them when they have complied with their side of the deal.

 

[Llanigraham]

I give up!!

I bet if all the complainants on here went into a room with 20 people with watches on and checked all those watches more than half would be wrong, and anywhere between 2 to 5 minutes.

When I catch a train I will ALWAYS try to get to the station at least 10 minutes before my train is due. Why? Because I take responsibility for my actions and do not want to be late. I also do the same when I have any other appointment to meet. I also expect people who have appointments with me to take the same attitude.

 

[Bletchleyite]

I give up!!

I bet if all the complainants on here went into a room with 20 people with watches on and checked all those watches more than half would be wrong, and anywhere between 2 to 5 minutes.

There's an electronic clock on pretty much every platform these days, which in most cases is synchronised with every clock on the station. It is not unreasonable to expect the railway to run to that clock. Obviously a DOO driver can't see that, but perhaps then they need to follow the old LU model of providing a repeater of that clock by the DOO mirrors.

When I catch a train I will ALWAYS try to get to the station at least 10 minutes before my train is due. Why? Because I take responsibility for my actions and do not want to be late. I also do the same when I have any other appointment to meet. I also expect people who have appointments with me to take the same attitude.

I certainly do as well, but sometimes things go wrong, and it is nice not to end up paying extra (as the OP did) because a train closed its doors prior to the published number of minutes before the scheduled departure time. Sometimes it happens, but I would certainly expect, if there was evidence of it, the TOC to refund the extra ticket purchased and give an apology, even if there is no practical action that can be taken.

 

[reb0118]

I certainly do as well, but sometimes things go wrong, and it is nice not to end up paying extra (as the OP did) because a train closed its doors prior to the published number of minutes before the scheduled departure time..

We shall have to await the OP's return to confirm which service was alleged to have been late, and by what margin so we can independently access the merits of the OP's case. Let us be not too hasty in our judgements.

 

[Dent]

What is so difficult in expecting people to arrive at the platform at least 5 minutes before their train is due to depart?

Who said anything about it being difficult? I certainly didn't, I only said that it would be an additional burden.

If people can't do a simple thing like that then I'm sorry but they need to take some responsibility for their actions.

Did anyone say that anyone can't allow extra time? I'm sure everyone would be able to, but shouldn't have to allow for TOC's poor timekeeping.

You're not asking anyone to take responsibility for their own actions, you are asking the customer to take responsibility for the TOC's failure to keep to their own timetable. That responsibility rightly rests with the TOC.

To turn your statement round, "If TOCs can't do a simple thing like not leave early then I'm sorry but they need to take some responsibility for their actions". Taking responsibility for their actions in this case would consist of honouring tickets on the next available service, and compensating the customer for the overall delay to their journey.

 

[cjmillsnun]

When I catch a train I will ALWAYS try to get to the station at least 10 minutes before my train is due. Why? Because I take responsibility for my actions and do not want to be late. I also do the same when I have any other appointment to meet. I also expect people who have appointments with me to take the same attitude.

You and me both mate. I'd rather sit on a cold platform for a while and know I won't miss my train. But, there are times when I've had to run, either I have overslept in the morning (my own stupid fault) or when other transport has left me late (a late train into Waterloo can make it touch and go for me to catch a train at Euston for example). I've never had a train leave early on me, but I would be incredibly frustrated if it had happened.

 

[miami]

So a 20 minute hourly actually takes 30 minutes? Plus 5 minute delay still being "on time".

No wonder people drive!

Oh yes, it's only 20 miles, the train will be there in 20 minutes. It leaves at 1200, so make sure you arrive at 11.50. Oh big you need a ticket? Better add another 5 minutes to buy that, no you can't on the train. Well it was de in at 12.20, but 12.24 is still on time. Oh the barriers mean a 5 minute wait to get out of the station, never mind

Suddenly that 80mph train turns into a 40mph train, and that's ignoring the time to and from the station. No wonder most people drive.

The world standardised time because of the railway. How can a system that practically INVENTED TIME come up with an excuse that they don't know what time it is. In days past (before everyone had millisecond accurate clocks powered by atomic clocks and satelites pocket) there was a known time store in the village. You get to work before it hit 0900, lunch was when it bonged one, and you left work when it bonged five. Didn't matter what your watch or the fireman a watch said.

Station clocks are exactly the same.

 

[A-driver]

So a 20 minute hourly actually takes 30 minutes? Plus 5 minute delay still being "on time".



No wonder people drive!



Oh yes, it's only 20 miles, the train will be there in 20 minutes. It leaves at 1200, so make sure you arrive at 11.50. Oh big you need a ticket? Better add another 5 minutes to buy that, no you can't on the train. Well it was de in at 12.20, but 12.24 is still on time. Oh the barriers mean a 5 minute wait to get out of the station, never mind



Suddenly that 80mph train turns into a 40mph train, and that's ignoring the time to and from the station. No wonder most people drive.



The world standardised time because of the railway. How can a system that practically INVENTED TIME come up with an excuse that they don't know what time it is. In days past (before everyone had millisecond accurate clocks powered by atomic clocks and satelites pocket) there was a known time store in the village. You get to work before it hit 0900, lunch was when it bonged one, and you left work when it bonged five. Didn't matter what your watch or the fireman a watch said.



Station clocks are exactly the same.

Except that most people don't drive. Try driving from Cambridge to central London on a Tuesday morning at 0700 battling through M11 and central London traffic. Then try finding somewhere to leave your car whilst at work and drive back again at 1730. Think you'll find even turning up at the station with a sensible amount of time to ensure you catch the train and can buy a ticket is still quicker and more convenient.

 

[AM9]

Except that most people don't drive. Try driving from Cambridge to central London on a Tuesday morning at 0700 battling through M11 and central London traffic. Then try finding somewhere to leave your car whilst at work and drive back again at 1730. Think you'll find even turning up at the station with a sensible amount of time to ensure you catch the train and can buy a ticket is still quicker and more convenient.

So essentially, it's tough luck for the passenger (customer) if the railway can't deliver what it advertises and by the way, you don't have much of a choice because driving is so much worse. Mmm, not much of a sales pitch for a public service that's operated for profit of the TOC is it?

 

[A-driver]

So essentially, it's tough luck for the passenger (customer) if the railway can't deliver what it advertises and by the way, you don't have much of a choice because driving is so much worse. Mmm, not much of a sales pitch for a public service that's operated for profit of the TOC is it?

It's down to a bit of common sense and leaving a sensible amount of time. If you are aiming to catch the 0803 train, arriving at 0802 isn't very sensible. Arriving between 0755-0801 is far more sensible. It's called engaging common sense and not blaming the railway for your own poor timekeeping.

 

[AM9]

I give up!!

I bet if all the complainants on here went into a room with 20 people with watches on and checked all those watches more than half would be wrong, and anywhere between 2 to 5 minutes.

When I catch a train I will ALWAYS try to get to the station at least 10 minutes before my train is due. Why? Because I take responsibility for my actions and do not want to be late. I also do the same when I have any other appointment to meet. I also expect people who have appointments with me to take the same attitude.

At no point have I said that passengers shouldn't arrive early. This thread has highlighted the railway's frequent inability of a) knowing what the true time is and b) adhering to the timetables that it publishes itself.
If there is an expectation for thge passenger to arrive some time before the advertised departure, (currently the ONLY information that the traveller is given) the state how early it should be, even if it is embarrassing and reveals some aspect of incompetance. This understanding seems to be very much in the railway's favour at the moment. Those responsible should just do it.

 

[A-driver]

At no point have I said that passengers shouldn't arrive early. This thread has highlighted the railway's frequent inability of a) knowing what the true time is and b) adhering to the timetables that it publishes itself.

If there is an expectation for thge passenger to arrive some time before the advertised departure, (currently the ONLY information that the traveller is given) the state how early it should be, even if it is embarrassing and reveals some aspect of incompetance. This understanding seems to be very much in the railway's favour at the moment. Those responsible should just do it.

Frequent? How many trains run every day in the uk and how many of them leave early everyday? I think you will find any early running is far, far from frequent. A few anecdotes of train leaving a bit early certainly dosnt suggest it is a frequent problem.

 

[hounddog]

Frequent? How many trains run every day in the uk and how many of them leave early everyday? I think you will find any early running is far, far from frequent. A few anecdotes of train leaving a bit early certainly dosnt suggest it is a frequent problem.

Once is once too many and when it happens it shouldn't be written off as 'one of those things'.

How often would you accept mistakes in your pay packet? I bet you wouldn't be saying 'oh well, mistakes happen but not very often'. You'd be creating merry hell.

 

[A-driver]

Once is once too many and when it happens it shouldn't be written off as 'one of those things'.



How often would you accept mistakes in your pay packet? I bet you wouldn't be saying 'oh well, mistakes happen'. You'd be creating merry hell.

Mistakes happen more frequently in my pay packet than early running does. But there are thousands of staff being paid, a few mistakes is inevitable. Show me one industry which runs absolutely perfectly with no mistakes ever. Once is not too frequent, things happen-human error, diagram error, mechanical error.

 

[furnessvale]

So essentially, it's tough luck for the passenger (customer) if the railway can't deliver what it advertises and by the way, you don't have much of a choice because driving is so much worse. Mmm, not much of a sales pitch for a public service that's operated for profit of the TOC is it?

Virgin WC have a notice on the platform at Stockport which say(words to the effect of) "To assist with punctual departure, train doors will be closed 40 secs before the advertised departure time".

I have no problem with this. If I am standing in front of a train door 50secs before booked departure I expect to board. If I am standing there 30 secs before departure I expect the door to be closed and locking itself.

All times are based on the platform clock which is what the platform staff look at to give the RA. I would not be referring to my own watch.

I would be very happy to see a similar rule incorporated into conditions of carriage or whatever. Equally, if I cannot board because the train has left early I would expect compensation on the same basis as if that train was cancelled.