Early Departure Complaint

[Bletchleyite]

It's down to a bit of common sense and leaving a sensible amount of time. If you are aiming to catch the 0803 train, arriving at 0802 isn't very sensible. Arriving between 0755-0801 is far more sensible. It's called engaging common sense and not blaming the railway for your own poor timekeeping.

We aren't. We are blaming the railway for its own poor timekeeping in the form of early running.
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Mistakes happen more frequently in my pay packet than early running does. But there are thousands of staff being paid, a few mistakes is inevitable. Show me one industry which runs absolutely perfectly with no mistakes ever. Once is not too frequent, things happen-human error, diagram error, mechanical error.

And it is right that when they do, those who have been wronged by it don't have to pay. Thus if a passenger was on the platform ready to board at Euston, say, at 09:57:59 by the station clocks for the 1000 departure, two minutes before departure as specified, and were unable to board because the doors were closed early, while the train isn't going to come back they should absolutely not be charged for travel on the train after regardless of ticket held.

IOW, if your employer made a mistake in your pay packet, you would not expect them to refuse to rectify it at their cost as soon as the banking system permits.

 

[najaB]

We aren't. We are blaming the railway for its own poor timekeeping in the form of early running.

We still don't know that the OP's train did, in fact, run early. And generally speaking (since nobody has presented any actual objective proof that early running is a common problem), I'll chip in with my anecdote (since that's all the thread is based on) I don't recall ever being on or attempting to catch a train that ran early.

 

[Bletchleyite]

We still don't know that the OP's train did, in fact, run early.

This is true (perhaps the OP might provide the train details so we can at least check on RTT if it seems it did or not). However the thread does seem to have moved on a little to a more generic level.

And generally speaking (since nobody has presented any actual objective proof that early running is a common problem), I'll chip in with my anecdote (since that's all the thread is based on) I don't recall ever being on or attempting to catch a train that ran early.

I have on a few occasions, mainly involving (surprise surprise) LM. In one case a stopping train (Cross City, I think) in Brum ran 3 minutes early throughout; I reported this to LM and they acknowledged it, though I don't know if they actually did anything (3 minutes on a local stopping service is certainly early enough that substantial numbers of passengers may have missed it). More recently, last Sunday the 1754 Euston-MKC departed both Leighton Buzzard and Bletchley pretty much exactly[1] one minute early - and I did see someone running along the bridge at Bletchley who had missed it as a direct result of this. There was no excuse for this at Bletchley because the clock on the PIS is clearly visible to the guard of a 4-car train from the rear cab; the door close button should have been pressed at precisely 18:47:30 per LM's published "arrive before" time.

[1] 45 seconds by RTT, but I remember seeing the wheels start turning at precisely 1847 by the platform clocks; there is clearly a short delay before the departure registers. Or against the WTT actually one minute and 15 seconds, but the WTT is not of relevance to passengers.

http://www.realtimetrains.co.uk/train/P71448/2015/11/22/advanced, if you want evidence

 

[Dent]

I'll chip in with my anecdote (since that's all the thread is based on)

Actually most of the recent posts on this thread have been based on theory.

 

[najaB]

Actually most of the recent posts on this thread have been based on theory.

I refer you to my signature line...

 

[AM9]

Other than the mention of VT's door closing times, there has been no mention of TOCs officially advising passengers in their conditions of sale, about the latest time that they can expect to board their train. Why is this so difficult when airlines don't have a problem. In the absence of any such warning, a TOC would have no defence against claims of loss arising from early departures. They are quite happy to bury all sorts of warnings into ticket conditions that can be used to penalise passengers when it suits them, but seem petrified of giving the passenger a (reasonable) time where the passenger is deemed to have done their part in the deal, thereby clarifying whether the railway has been negligent in its timekeeping or not.

 

[A-driver]

Other than the mention of VT's door closing times, there has been no mention of TOCs officially advising passengers in their conditions of sale, about the latest time that they can expect to board their train. Why is this so difficult when airlines don't have a problem. In the absence of any such warning, a TOC would have no defence against claims of loss arising from early departures. They are quite happy to bury all sorts of warnings into ticket conditions that can be used to penalise passengers when it suits them, but seem petrified of giving the passenger a (reasonable) time where the passenger is deemed to have done their part in the deal, thereby clarifying whether the railway has been negligent in its timekeeping or not.

Can you provide info on any cases where a TOC have been found liable for any loss due to people not turning up in reasonable time or due to a train apparently leaving less than 60secs early? I highly doubt you can. This isn't a new issue, people have missed trains for that last 100 years.

The bottom line is that if you turn up in reasonable time you will make your train. If you turn up less than a couple of minutes before departure you may encounter issues.

 

[najaB]

Why is this so difficult when airlines don't have a problem.

Airliner ≠ Train. Airline ≠ TOC. Airport ≠ railway station. Apples ≠ Oranges.

 

[CheesyChips]

Airliner ≠ Train. Airline ≠ TOC. Airport ≠ railway station. Apples ≠ Oranges.

Of course railways and airlines are not exactly the same, but they're more similar than they're not insofar that they are both a method of transport involving a vehicle departing from fixed locations that require pre-planned ticketing and scheduling both on the part of the operator and the passenger.

...and you can compare apple and oranges, one has a core and the other doesn't, but they're both fruit.

 

[miami]

One big selling point of rail is the ease of use. No need to turn up 10 minutes before departure like on a plane. Easy walk up tickets with no need for reservations - turn up and buy. Heck even buy on the train.

Planes used to be like this in some cases - especially domestic. The trains benefited when that flexibility went by the wayside. I wonder what will benefit as trains become more inconvenient.

 

[A-driver]

One big selling point of rail is the ease of use. No need to turn up 10 minutes before departure like on a plane. Easy walk up tickets with no need for reservations - turn up and buy. Heck even buy on the train.

Planes used to be like this in some cases - especially domestic. The trains benefited when that flexibility went by the wayside. I wonder what will benefit as trains become more inconvenient.

Trains arnt becoming more inconvenient though. You could never turn up at a station within 30secs of departure time. Or at least you would always have been silly to.

 

[Bletchleyite]

Planes used to be like this in some cases - especially domestic. The trains benefited when that flexibility went by the wayside. I wonder what will benefit as trains become more inconvenient.

Not so much because of this, as this hasn't changed, but if we do get to the point of airport style security checks being applied on rail, I will give up travelling by rail if car is viable, and will be pushed towards air, as if you've got to waste time hanging around airports are much more pleasurable places to do so, and at least I can chuck my bag in the hold and let someone else faff around X-raying it, and just call me if there is a problem (which there won't be because I don't put things in that are banned).

Thalys is already off my list for that reason, now the French have decided to copy Eurostar with security checks as a knee jerk reaction to a problem that will simply move to other trains, or to the security queue itself. Meanwhile, the only airport as horrible as the Paris Nord departure lounge for E* I've used is Bucharest Baneasa, and it's closed.
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Of course railways and airlines are not exactly the same, but they're more similar than they're not insofar that they are both a method of transport involving a vehicle departing from fixed locations that require pre-planned ticketing and scheduling both on the part of the operator and the passenger.

That they are, and while there are crossovers (I'm presently working in Edinburgh bi-weekly, and have used both rail and easyJet to get there and back depending on my needs each week) mostly air is low-frequency and long-distance, so arriving at the airport an hour before the flight isn't a massive penalty overall, whereas rail is shorter-distance and so having to arrive early tends to be a greater penalty.

Meanwhile, Advance tickets change missing a train (for whatever reason) from being mildly inconvenient to extremely expensive.

 

[A-driver]

Not so much because of this, as this hasn't changed, but if we do get to the point of airport style security checks being applied on rail, I will give up travelling by rail if car is viable, and will be pushed towards air, as if you've got to waste time hanging around airports are much more pleasurable places to do so, and at least I can chuck my bag in the hold and let someone else faff around X-raying it, and just call me if there is a problem (which there won't be because I don't put things in that are banned).

Thalys is already off my list for that reason, now the French have decided to copy Eurostar with security checks as a knee jerk reaction to a problem that will simply move to other trains, or to the security queue itself. Meanwhile, the only airport as horrible as the Paris Nord departure lounge for E* I've used is Bucharest Baneasa, and it's closed.
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That they are, and while there are crossovers (I'm presently working in Edinburgh bi-weekly, and have used both rail and easyJet to get there and back depending on my needs each week) mostly air is low-frequency and long-distance, so arriving at the airport an hour before the flight isn't a massive penalty overall, whereas rail is shorter-distance and so having to arrive early tends to be a greater penalty.

Meanwhile, Advance tickets change missing a train (for whatever reason) from being mildly inconvenient to extremely expensive.

Nowhere in the uk requires people to
Arrive early for a train. People are blowing this out of proportion. Just arrive in reasonable time-ie if catching the 1406 arrive at that station around 1402/3. 3 minutes isn't going to be a great hardship for anyone and is very, very basic common sense-something I realise many people don't actually have.

 

[najaB]

...a method of transport involving a vehicle departing from fixed locations that require pre-planned ticketing and scheduling both on the part of the operator and the passenger...

Can't remember the last time I saw an airline season ticket, boarding passes for a train, an aeroplane conductor checking/selling tickets on board or standing passengers on a plane.

Snakes on either type of vehicle are a problem.

 

[455driver]

Let us be not too hasty in our judgements.

You crack me up!

 

[Bletchleyite]

Can't remember the last time I saw an airline season ticket, boarding passes for a train, an aeroplane conductor checking/selling tickets on board or standing passengers on a plane.

Those, of course, are valid comparisons between the two. Though it could be argued that obtaining an Advance ticket from a ticket machine using ToD is roughly equivalent to checking in and obtaining an airline boarding pass, and printing said Advance ticket at home not dissimilar to printing an airline boarding pass at home.

And the French method of high-speed operation (as distinct from the Germanic one favoured in the UK) allocates everyone a seat.

Snakes on either type of vehicle are a problem.

Cakes on a train are quite nice, though, despite offering the same rhyme

 

[47271]

I've just come back to this thread since I placed its eighth post, which describes the only time I've had cause to complain about early running, and the successful outcome of that complaint. I've been slightly surprised by the extent of subsequent debate, so I've done a bit of arithmetic to try to put the discussion into context.

In very broad terms, I estimate that I've caught around 2,500 trains and travelled around half a million miles by rail in the UK over the past 10 years. This travel has occurred in almost every part of the network, but (if it makes any difference) only very occasionally in the South West of England and only once in Wales. I'm not especially obsessive about being at stations well ahead of time but neither do I cut it fine. I'd like to see myself as pretty normal in that respect.

So only once (1/2500 journeys or 0.04%) have I been affected by this this problem. The incident occurred on a high frequency route at a busy time of day, so noone would expect to turn up more than two or three minutes ahead of timetable. To further reduce significance, I complained and the TOC responded appropriately.

I don't want to be rude generally, or be disrespectful to the OP who has since vanished, but this seems to be a problem so rare that we don't need to worry about it?

 

[robbeech]

The original poster doesn't say either way if the train in question was a connecting train. As it appears they have not been back it's likely we will never find out.

 

[AM9]

I've just come back to this thread since I placed its eighth post, which describes the only time I've had cause to complain about early running, and the successful outcome of that complaint. I've been slightly surprised by the extent of subsequent debate, so I've done a bit of arithmetic to try to put the discussion into context.

In very broad terms, I estimate that I've caught around 2,500 trains and travelled around half a million miles by rail in the UK over the past 10 years. This travel has occurred in almost every part of the network, but (if it makes any difference) only very occasionally in the South West of England and only once in Wales. I'm not especially obsessive about being at stations well ahead of time but neither do I cut it fine. I'd like to see myself as pretty normal in that respect.

So only once (1/2500 journeys or 0.04%) have I been affected by this this problem. The incident occurred on a high frequency route at a busy time of day, so noone would expect to turn up more than two or three minutes ahead of timetable. To further reduce significance, I complained and the TOC responded appropriately.

It doesn't matter how many regular travellers post here saying anecdotally that they haven't had problems when they are habitually turning up with plenty of time. They probably wouldn't notice if the train that they easily caught was early anyway.
I have never since BR days, missed a train because it left early but there are those in situations where, through no fault of their own arrive at the platform in time only to see their train leave before its advertised time. In some of those circumstances, it may cause them to wait more than the 15-20 minutes that I and most home counties travellers expect to wait for the next train.
It may though be much worse than that, i.e. missing a connection that could cost a lot more than time. Rare as those circumstances maybe, they are still very real whatever delay and compensation payments might be offered as 'goodwill gestures' (for the operator's error?).
A-Driver has suggested that 3 minutes before departure is reasonable time to arrive* and I think that would still allow travellers to catch the majority of early departures. The problem is that although as a driver, his advice is well-intended and probably about right, such advice is never included in the ticket conditions. Why are the TOCs so reluctant to inform their customers?, - the fact that they don't could one day cost them dearly.

* Arriving at a platform at a specific time is not guaranteed however well planned the previous part of the journey is (unless you work in an on-platform kiosk ). There are still opportunities to take longer than is available to get from the entrance to the station to the correct platform:

the hardened eco-traveller at the only manned window, negotiating a multiple split-ticket trip to Lime St. via Doncaster, Blackburn and Burscough on a Senior Railcard
the person at the gate with a pushchair the size of a Ford Transit fumbling to find a ticket in a handbag with more nooks and crannys than an ants' nest​

...and those two are without any help from officialdom.

 

[yorkie]

Some people appear not to be familiar with Please read before posting in Disputes & Prosecutions, can I ask people do read it before posting in this section, thanks.

I have sent a PM to the OP asking if more information can be supplied.

.... this seems to be a problem so rare that we don't need to worry about it?

If it did happen as described, then no-one is going to be happy to lose £50 just because it's rare.

 

[vamparmand]

Hello, sorry for not replying earlier, I have been reviewing what has been said and have taken advice onboard.

Here are the details of what happened.

The train that departed early was the LM 18:16 25/11/15 train from London Euston to Birmingham New St. The time the train left the station at platform 2 was 18:13:37s according to the platform clock. I checked the train departure time against my email and the station clocks against my smart watch (synchronised to my phone, which itself is set up to match GMT via 4G/WIFI).

I arrived at Euston station via the northern line having set off early knowing it was rush hour, emerging from the underground escalator in the station at 18:11. I already looked at live departures on my phone to know that the train was leaving platform 2. I briskly walked directly to the platform which took all of roughly 2 minutes. There was a Lady just in front of me and she also got left behind. As we just got on the platform I noticed the indicator lights above the doors going off literally a second before the lady ahead of me reached the back carriage doors, the platform attendants were holding their "paddles" in the air signalling departure and the one half way up the train turned to face us and waved us back away from it. I specifically looked at the platform clock to check the timing, then looked at my email confirmation of the tickets to note the train had indeed been allowed to leave early.

Rather than argue with the attendants I didn't want the chance of missing another train if there was one within a few minutes wait, I went back to the main foyer to check the next train. There was one 10 mins later but it was Virgin. I looked at the ticket which was pre-booked and it was only for London Midland. So i waited until the 18:52 train. It was on this train that the conductor charged me the £50 for the journey quoting it was for "insurance reasons" for the journey that I have a valid ticket, even after I explained the train had departed from the station early. He actually suggested that the timing couldn't be wrong as it takes "5 people" to move a train and that it was my watch that was wrong.

The reason it angered me so much was the fact I was in London for a funeral firstly, that I had tackled my way through the London masses at rush hour and that I pride myself on being an honest and punctual person.

I have complained to London Midland directly about the whole situation and I am awaiting a reply. My original question asking about obtaining evidence, cctv, is because it does seem it is a case of my word verses theirs.

In hindsight I should have used my phone to take a photo of the train leaving and the platform clock as indisputable truth of the situation, but i guess that is why they say hindsight is 20:20!

Cheers,
VampArmand

 

[najaB]

The train that departed early was the LM 18:16 25/11/15 train from London Euston to Birmingham New St.

According to Realtime Trains it departed at 18:15¾. The site pulls its information from official Network Rail sources so I don't think you're likely to get far with your complaint. Good luck anyway.

 

[A-driver]

Hello, sorry for not replying earlier, I have been reviewing what has been said and have taken advice onboard.



Here are the details of what happened.



The train that departed early was the LM 18:16 25/11/15 train from London Euston to Birmingham New St. The time the train left the station at platform 2 was 18:13:37s according to the platform clock. I checked the train departure time against my email and the station clocks against my smart watch (synchronised to my phone, which itself is set up to match GMT via 4G/WIFI).



I arrived at Euston station via the northern line having set off early knowing it was rush hour, emerging from the underground escalator in the station at 18:11. I already looked at live departures on my phone to know that the train was leaving platform 2. I briskly walked directly to the platform which took all of roughly 2 minutes. There was a Lady just in front of me and she also got left behind. As we just got on the platform I noticed the indicator lights above the doors going off literally a second before the lady ahead of me reached the back carriage doors, the platform attendants were holding their "paddles" in the air signalling departure and the one half way up the train turned to face us and waved us back away from it. I specifically looked at the platform clock to check the timing, then looked at my email confirmation of the tickets to note the train had indeed been allowed to leave early.



Rather than argue with the attendants I didn't want the chance of missing another train if there was one within a few minutes wait, I went back to the main foyer to check the next train. There was one 10 mins later but it was Virgin. I looked at the ticket which was pre-booked and it was only for London Midland. So i waited until the 18:52 train. It was on this train that the conductor charged me the £50 for the journey quoting it was for "insurance reasons" for the journey that I have a valid ticket, even after I explained the train had departed from the station early. He actually suggested that the timing couldn't be wrong as it takes "5 people" to move a train and that it was my watch that was wrong.



The reason it angered me so much was the fact I was in London for a funeral firstly, that I had tackled my way through the London masses at rush hour and that I pride myself on being an honest and punctual person.



I have complained to London Midland directly about the whole situation and I am awaiting a reply. My original question asking about obtaining evidence, cctv, is because it does seem it is a case of my word verses theirs.



In hindsight I should have used my phone to take a photo of the train leaving and the platform clock as indisputable truth of the situation, but i guess that is why they say hindsight is 20:20!



Cheers,

VampArmand

I'm not disbelieving you or suggesting you are wrong but I'm very surprised a train could leave a major station like Euston that early in the height of the evening peak, if nothing els getting a clear path out the station almost 3 mins before departure time seems somewhat odd. You would imagine an awful lot of people would have missed the 1816 rush hour train if it left that much earlier than planned.

Are you sure you didn't go to the wrong platform an watch a train leaving scheduled for 1813/1814 and assume it was yours?

As I say, I'm not trying to say you are wrong or have made a mistake but it's very surprising that at that time of day at a major terminal a train could be sent off quite so early without platform staff, guard, driver or even possibly signaller noticing. Especially as RTT data suggests it departed bang on time.

 

[najaB]

Are you sure you didn't go to the wrong platform an watch a train leaving scheduled for 1813/1814 and assume it was yours?

That's a good spot. The LM 1813 departure for Birmingham departed platform 2 bang on time. The LM 1816 depature left platform 12 at 1815¾.

 

[A-driver]

That's a good spot. The LM 1813 departure for Birmingham departed platform 2 bang on time. The LM 1816 depature left platform 12 at 1815¾.

Well I'm glad it's taken an entire thread of people suggesting staff and the industry are unable to keep time and that airlines are about to take over from trains as a preferred method of transport because people havnt got the common sense to not turn up at the platform 10secs before departure then decide the industry is at fault when they miss their train just to realise that what sparked it off was someone heading to platform 2 instead of platform 12! (Honestly no offence to the OP as it is an obviously easy mistake to make).

I'd strongly suggest that this is what happened here as its a very strong coincidence if a train to Birmingham left 3 mins early from plat 2 despite RTT showing it as on time whilst a different Birmingham bound train departed on time on plat 12 at the same time.

 

[reb0118]

You just beat me to it here.

Platform 2 versus platform 12?

It would be surprising to many how many folk turn up at platform 7 at the Waverley when their train is actually scheduled from 17 or are adamant that their service departs from 5 (which doesn't currently exist in passenger use) when in fact they want 15.

TBF even I as a member of staff sometimes go to the wrong platform () - although I usually give myself 10mins to get there so have not (yet) departed late because of it. That said generally I have the luxury that the train will not depart without me.......

 

[A-driver]

You just beat me to it here.



Platform 2 versus platform 12?



It would be surprising to many how many folk turn up at platform 7 at the Waverley when their train is actually scheduled from 17 or are adamant that their service departs from 5 (which doesn't currently exist in passenger use) when in fact they want 15.



TBF even I as a member of staff sometimes go to the wrong platform () - although I usually give myself 10mins to get there so have not (yet) departed late because of it. That said generally I have the luxury that the train will not depart without me.......

A colleague of mine who works on the platforms at kings cross recently had an argument with a passenger who was adamant they had let the Glasgow train leave 5 mins early as the tail lights were disappearing Into gasworks tunnel as they ran down the platform. Turns out the passenger was correct and the Glasgow train was infact due to leave platform 3 in 5 mins time. But from platform 3 at Euston, not kings cross. I highly doubt they managed to catch the train from Euston either.

 

[robbeech]

If you had a ticket for the 18:16 train, that one left Platform 12. it's very easy in the midst of rushing about to look on some departure boards (or a phone screen) and see a Birmingham train leaving around quarter past, think it's yours, remember a 2 in the platform from looking earlier, and head to platform 2 as that is where a train is leaving.
This all might be a red herring there may be something else to it, but it appears a platform mix up might be responsible here. The annoying thing is that given platform 2 and 12 are roughly the same sort of distance from the underground (ignoring any potential congestion for LO services from platform 9 etc that go the same way) you'd have likely made the correct train.
You won't be the first and you won't be the last. A colleague of mine got a Nottingham train from St Pancras to go to East Mids Parkway on Friday afternoon. He had travelled down on a train from Nottingham so got on a train TO Nottingham, it wasn't until they had departed that he realised it didn't call there so had to do a change at leicester and wait 40 minutes or so due to a delay on the next train that DID go where he wanted. he had an open return and it was considered a valid route so didn't have to pay any extra but we all slip up sometimes.

Rob

 

[Bletchleyite]

Whoops. That one does I think confuse people like the OP. I guess he will have to take his 50 quid on the chin.

There is one worse one, though - there are at one point in the evening two departures from Euston at the same time, both LM, one of which is a fast and one a semifast. I'm pretty sure they are both to Northampton, to add to the confusion...as it's only one hour affected I don't see why they don't retime one of them a minute earlier on the public timetable and always run it a minute late.

Must admit I didn't think the 1816 went past Northampton, but I stand corrected.

 

[A-driver]

Whoops. That one does I think confuse people like the OP. I guess he will have to take his 50 quid on the chin.

There is one worse one, though - there are at one point in the evening two departures from Euston at the same time, both LM, one of which is a fast and one a semifast. I'm pretty sure they are both to Northampton, to add to the confusion...as it's only one hour affected I don't see why they don't retime one of them a minute earlier on the public timetable and always run it a minute late.

Must admit I didn't think the 1816 went past Northampton, but I stand corrected.

There used to be a 1744 kings X Peterborough (stopping) and 1744 kings X-Lynn (fast). Passengers often got on the wrong one. But a driver was booked pass to Finsbury Park on the Peterborough and on a few occasions it had to be specially stopped at potters bar to let them off so they could get back and relive their train from Moorgate!