What is a 'link'?

[notadriver]

If an organisation pays you to do a job and pays someone else to be your manager then you are being paid to do what you are asked by that manager. That's basically what most employment contracts consist of. It is not necessary for your manager to know your job inside out in order to manage you successfully. In the case of a train driver, a manager who has not been a driver might bring other useful wider experience to the role. There obviously needs to be some oversight of your work by an experienced driver but that doesn't have to be from your manager.

What happens in the bus industry is that managers go on a quick 2 week training course to get the pcv licence and do a bit of driving to show they've done it. That doesn't work in the rail industry however lol

 

[Minilad]

What happens in the bus industry is that managers go on a quick 2 week training course to get the pcv licence and do a bit of driving to show they've done it. That doesn't work in the rail industry however lol

Unless you are a strike busting guard

 

[Shaggy]

Stop being a drama queen, I didn't swear at you.

Your attitude only shows how completely out of touch you are with people you're supposed to manage.
Have you ever been in a mess room?

Never said that you did. Read what I said before name calling please.

Also you have assumed I am a driver manager. I am not.

Yes. Many times.
--- old post above --- --- new post below ---

God no. I use it all the time. However; one is as bad as the other. Why should you be allowed to be sarcastic and someone else not be allowed to swear. Neither behavior can be condoned but neither can hypocrisy.

We are all as bad as each other and sometimes having the ability to walk away from an argument is a good trait to have but people (not specifically you) often use it to avoid discussion when viewpoints are called into question.

I feel like relations are thawing.

I'm happy to debate/chat anything with anyone (hence being a member on here) I just can't be bothered with swearing. I don't see it as an equivalent with sarcasm but I guess we will disagree on that!

Understand your point about avoiding discussion. If so then it's a very weak manager who does. However, regardless of who they are, if a colleague in a professional conversation starts swearing (at/to/with/whatever) I simply ask them not to. 99.99% of the time they (and this includes traincrew whom I deal with daily though not on a managerial basis) apologise and carry on. Maybe it's because I'm a relative new entrant to the industry but I have never put up with it in any other walk of working life and do not now either regardless of the "railway/messroom culture" that prevails. To clarify also, I wouldn't use sarcasm in professional life either.

So anyway, links....

 

[Wallicio]

Wow.... Although this thread has gone a little off topic, before it dies a death... could anyone answer my question on page 1 referring to Link 1 please?

 

[ComUtoR]

Wow.... Although this thread has gone a little off topic, before it dies a death... could anyone answer my question on page 1 referring to Link 1 please?

Oooh apologies as I thought it had already been answered.

Links may have some form of progression. Or simply something to separate drivers out.

Our depot has 3 links and you go from Link 3 - 2 - 1 it is separated by route knowledge and link 1 knows everything and link 3 is for the new Drivers.

You also get a supply link, senior driver link, old mans link.

 

[Shaggy]

Am interested to hear the take on this 'Link 1' as it is not a term i am familiar with....




Is this due to it being the hardest/most demanding Link, or a Link that is worked up to in seniority therefor (pardon the term) a cushty number?



Would these "favourable jobs" im guessing would be down to the fact you have done your time, worked your way up the links and now your 'top link'. This i would assume again being favourable, would mean you have a prefferable link.



So they get the easier link? Or have the hardest more demanding link due to having more XP/Knowledge.

Cheers guys.
Great topic
Wallicio

Unless I'm mistaken (and I'm happy for my driver brothers to correct me), if there is a progressive link structure in place, then it is down to seniority at the depot. When one driver retires/moves on from Link 1, the most senior driver in link 2 moves up then the senior driver in link 3 moves up etc. I'm not sure if they have a choice or not but the vast majority move up.

Higher links (due to their experience etc) tend to have a wider variety of routes and traction. Also, they tend to have earlies which are not quite so early and lates which are not quite so late etc. So it's yes harder in that they have a wider knowledge base to keep up, but less hard due to their shift patterns.

Some also link progression as a reward for loyalty. Most drivers have no career promotion (other than instructing/route assessing) and all are paid the same so this I believe is seen as a way of something to work to etc.

As I said, one of the actual drivers may well correct me but I think that's right.

 

[Wallicio]

Ok with reference to comments reffering to Link 1 being more desirable etc, why is that? Is it due to it being (in the drivers eyes) easier/shorter/longer/more difficult etc?

I understand you are not going to be competant to do all links day one of pass out and there may be a natural progression to learn all the routes your TOC provides. But specifically referring to link one why is it deemed so desirable? Just out of interest?

 

[ComUtoR]

Its TOC/Depot specific

I would say it is safe to assume that the more knowledgeable you become and the more experienced the happier people are. More respect etc

It is also beneficial to your career in some circumstances. With experience and more route knowledge it opens up opportunity to progress into other areas, Instructor for example.

Route/Traction are typically the main separators and in some instances the better work comes with a change in traction/route. Our 100mph work is link 1 only and link 2 is totally suburban work. New routes and traction again, make people happy.

More RDW as you sign everything.

I got asked if I signed "the main" last night so I was able to take a diversion which saved me some time.

The Old Man links are usually time specific as they were used for the old boys. No earlies, no lates, no nights. Some would say that is preferential.

Generally it is subjective.

 

[MichaelAMW]

Michael, I have no trouble listening to my manager if his suggestions are doable.

To give you an example, I'm having a ride out with a manager. Driving a 153, after leaving a station he asks me why I'm not looking out of the window when moving off as per NROHB our operational handbook.
Anybody that ever driven one of our 153 would know that it's completely impossible to do ...

Fair enough. I suppose my point is that a bit of humility is needed on both sides: in this specific example, the manager needs to recognise where they don't fully understand the role of the driver they manage and the driver needs to recognise the authority of the manager, in the sense that they represent the company - certainly not suggesting you personally don't do this. That mutual humility, which often merely needs a bit of "shut your mouth and open your ears", can often lead to a very fruitful working relationship.

I just Googled a bit of video of a 153 and I think I can see what you mean - perhaps a good sugggestion for a driver who is a giraffe?! (The window seems very high, particularly at the end with the new cab.)

 

[Pinza-C55]

Ok with reference to comments reffering to Link 1 being more desirable etc, why is that? Is it due to it being (in the drivers eyes) easier/shorter/longer/more difficult etc?

I understand you are not going to be competant to do all links day one of pass out and there may be a natural progression to learn all the routes your TOC provides. But specifically referring to link one why is it deemed so desirable? Just out of interest?

I answered that earlier, though my info is slightly out of date. At Kings Cross a driver was in Link One (commonly referred to as the Main Line Link) if they signed Newcastle. I think they got mileage money (Guards certainly did) which added so much to their basic pay that it was deemed unfair for them to work 6 Newcastle returns in a week therefore they only worked 3 Newcastles and and the other 3 days they would work Outer Suburbans or be spare, this having the advantage that they kept their route knowledge via Hertford for diversions.
A guard's Mileage Money for a Newcastle return was nearly £30 in 1987 so it was a big promotion to get into Link 1.

 

[Wallicio]

Answered and understood.

Thank you all I feel suitably enlightened.

Many thanks ??????

 

[craigybagel]

Ironically enough, at my depot the only difference between the two drivers links (guards are in one link at every depot at my TOC) is one extra traction for the higher link, that seemingly everyone in that link hates driving! But maybe it's just the senior men tend to moan more

 

[greatkingrat]

Is it compulsory or optional to move to a higher link?

 

[ComUtoR]

Compulsory.

We do have a few "medically" restricted who have been allowed to remain in a lower link but that comes under a whole different umbrella.

 

[notadriver]

Compulsory.



We do have a few "medically" restricted who have been allowed to remain in a lower link but that comes under a whole different umbrella.

The High speed is like higher link work but that's not compulsory. In fact getting onto it requires a good record and passing a tough interview process.

 

[Wallicio]

Notadriver, what is the benefit of working high speed? I assume as you have to pass a tough interview there will be some form of perk to it?

 

[A-driver]

Compulsory.



We do have a few "medically" restricted who have been allowed to remain in a lower link but that comes under a whole different umbrella.

That's company specific. It certainly isn't always compulsory to move up links.

 

[notadriver]

Notadriver, what is the benefit of working high speed? I assume as you have to pass a tough interview there will be some form of perk to it?

More money is one which causes resentment from others

 

[Wallicio]

Ooo an interesting development, I was under the impression all drivers were paid the same and the perk of seniority was a higher link ergo not so unsociable hours.
I didn't know you could earn more money from driving at high speeds.. Is it a relative increase in pay? Don't quite understand the resentment factor if its deemed as a higher skill set to drive at a higher speed...

 

[A-driver]

Ooo an interesting development, I was under the impression all drivers were paid the same and the perk of seniority was a higher link ergo not so unsociable hours.

I didn't know you could earn more money from driving at high speeds.. Is it a relative increase in pay? Don't quite understand the resentment factor if its deemed as a higher skill set to drive at a higher speed...

You've misunderstood. SE high speed is effectively a different company as opposed to a higher link. Links traditionally have some sort of progression without needing to apply for a move, although his progression can be voluntary. A top link man will be paid the same as a bottom link.

Traditionally the top link had less anti social hours and better work but that's not the case now and links tend to be in place to make the distribution of work and retention of road and traction knowledge easier.

 

[Wallicio]

Ah sorry, get you now.

Apologies, the terminology is all new and I am very green.

Thankyou for the enlightenment

All the best ??????

 

[notadriver]

You've misunderstood. SE high speed is effectively a different company as opposed to a higher link. Links traditionally have some sort of progression without needing to apply for a move, although his progression can be voluntary. A top link man will be paid the same as a bottom link.

Traditionally the top link had less anti social hours and better work but that's not the case now and links tend to be in place to make the distribution of work and retention of road and traction knowledge easier.

You say it's a different company but it's still SE just like FGW HSS is still FGW and they get more money too. I would say rightly or wrongly driving at high speeds means more money.

 

[CC 72100]

You say it's a different company but it's still SE just like FGW HSS is still FGW and they get more money too.

That entirely depends on the depot whether it is separated. If it is separated into a HSS depot and a non-HSS depot, with dedicated staff for each, then yes, the HSS drivers get more money but is entirely separated, HSS does not represent a link within the same depot - probably in the same vein as high-speed on SE.

At some of the smaller depots the situation is different.

 

[A-driver]

You say it's a different company but it's still SE just like FGW HSS is still FGW and they get more money too. I would say rightly or wrongly driving at high speeds means more money.

Regarding FGW that is partially to do with high speed being a seperate company to start with which was joined by Thames and Wessex trains.

SE HSS is still part of SET but as drivers have to apply and be formally interviewed to join a HSS depot or 'link' it's more a seperate company with a seperate contact than a traditional link set up.

 

[bramling]

If an organisation pays you to do a job and pays someone else to be your manager then you are being paid to do what you are asked by that manager. That's basically what most employment contracts consist of. It is not necessary for your manager to know your job inside out in order to manage you successfully. In the case of a train driver, a manager who has not been a driver might bring other useful wider experience to the role. There obviously needs to be some oversight of your work by an experienced driver but that doesn't have to be from your manager.

Yes and no. At a location near me there was a case of a manager trying to pursue a driver for a SPAD on a yellow/green signal. That's just plain ridiculous, and the worst thing about it was how far it went before being thrown out. Meanwhile I can think of another case of two managers being involved in investigating a (reported) SPAD, neither were able to interpret clear evidence strongly suggesting the signal returned to danger, and it had to wait for a third manager to return from annual leave before it got sorted out.

My view would be it's not necessary for a manager to be an ex-driver, but nonetheless they definitely should be properly trained and competent.

 

[notadriver]

How does progression to FGW HSS work at say Paddington? Is it a case of simply waiting your turn or will they look at your record before accepting you ?

 

[A-driver]

How does progression to FGW HSS work at say Paddington? Is it a case of simply waiting your turn or will they look at your record before accepting you ?

You put your name down on a list if you wish to move into the HS link and are called up in seniority order as a vacancy comes up AFAIK. But it's just because they merged the companies. At kings X you have suburban company and a HS company with no natural progression between the two.

 

[Thewanderer]

In Ireland we generally call train diagrams "links".

 

[GB]

At a location near me there was a case of a manager trying to pursue a driver for a SPAD on a yellow/green signal. That's just plain ridiculous, and the worst thing about it was how far it went before being thrown out.

Sorry but you are gonna have to run that one by me again. How is one supposed to have spaded a signal that isn't at danger? The clue is in the acroymn isn't? I hope the "manager" got his bollox suitably chopped off!:roll:

 

[MichaelAMW]

Yes and no. At a location near me there was a case of a manager trying to pursue a driver for a SPAD on a yellow/green signal. That's just plain ridiculous, and the worst thing about it was how far it went before being thrown out. Meanwhile I can think of another case of two managers being involved in investigating a (reported) SPAD, neither were able to interpret clear evidence strongly suggesting the signal returned to danger, and it had to wait for a third manager to return from annual leave before it got sorted out.

My view would be it's not necessary for a manager to be an ex-driver, but nonetheless they definitely should be properly trained and competent.

Well, that's just some people being a bit on either the stupid side or arrogant side. As I said earlier, humility is needed on both sides of a management relationship and here, from the basic details you've given, the managers in question should have simply admitted they couldn't deal with the issue alone. In the first case, the "SPAD" at a signal that can't even show "D", the person hasn't checked the absolute basics - that or they have it in for their victim... As you say, driver or not, they need to be competent at whatever they are doing.