New freight flows from Liverpool docks investment

[8A Rail]

Currently I'm in work to give a proper reply. But to clarify loads out of docks is as follows:
25 "Drax" hoppers = 2400 tonnes
21 "I/B" hoppers = 1900 tonnes
23 "DBS coal" hoppers = 2100 tonnes.
19 "HTA" coal hoppers = 1700 tonnes(?)
45 "HAA" coal wagons = 2200 tonnes.
Being in work need to recheck the HTA load but it was around that tonnage.

Interesting. When coal was still being moved out of the LBT, a loaded 23 set of HTAs with a single class 60 wasn't far off 2700t (usually around 2400-2600t) and we managed (most of the time) to get out of the docks. This was a dry weather figure by the way. Wet weather was more like 21 loaded.

23 HTA's x 102t GLW = 2346 tonnes maximum and assuming they were fully loaded would be about 2336 tonnes maximum. So the figure I quoted above is about right for most of the FFPS coal trains at 2100 tonnes. To back that up, even EWS / DBS's own paperwork confirmed that tonnage too. HTH.

I'd say your full loads figures are probably a little out. HTA and derivatives are around the 76.5 t capacity mark (prepared to be corrected here). So 27 x 76.5 works out at around 2065 tons.

My figures of 2700 tonnes (posted in June) was based on the trial biomass trains that operated last year which were 27 Drax hoppers, not the 25 as they are now operating. Likewise, I did say, I have doubts but it was approx guide not a definite guide.

(Edit: Add approx 30t per hopper x 27 = 810 tonnes. Add load of 2065 tonnes with hoppers of 810 tonnes = 2875 tonnes, But I accept that the hoppers will carry less weight allowing for the "mass" of the product, so may be 2700 tonnes is about right ot thereabouts?).

 

[Ash Bridge]

Observed the afternoon train (6E10) for the first time today, passing Ash Bridge Junc. around 14:40, a most impressive sight with 66706 Nene Valley on the front.

 

[childwallblues]

Without double checking, I would have thought the small hours would throw up a path or two, although the quarries along that route would be keen to keep paths open for their expansion.

I think that you are correct.

 

[mwmbwls]

I very much doubt that they could traverse the Hope Valley unless the line was resignalled between Hazel Grove and Dore. Then there would be problems finding paths between Sheffield Station and Hexthorpe Junction. Very much a no no I think.

https://consultations.networkrail.c...ents/Hope Valley Consultation Pack Jan15.pdf

These original Hope Valley Capacity proposals were presented to stakeholders and the public in November 2013. Passing loops at Chinley.Grindleford and Dore were considered. However, as the rail industry reviewed the scope of the whole Northern Hub programme, of which the Project is a key component, the specification for the Project was changed.
The result of this review was that the specification to which Network Rail was remitted to develop the Project was changed to the Project enabling the delivery of three fast trains per hour rather than four along the route of the Hope Valley line. There also aspirations for an hourly weekday stopping service through the Hope Valley and easier freight train pathing.
As a result of the change in the specification for the Project Network Rail carried out a review of the proposals which identified the provision of a 1,000m passing loop from the east end of Bamford station to the Jaggers Lane overbridge as a more appropriate engineering solution.
The proposals to be included in the Project for a passing loop at Dore remain largely in line with the proposals Network Rail originally consulted on in November 2013 The Dore aspect of the Project consists of the existing Dore South Curve single line being extended to provide space for a 520m freight train. In addition, it is proposed to double the track capacity around Dore following the resignalling of the Heeley Loop north of the station and the reconstruction of a second platform at Dore & Totley station with a new access bridge and lifts
Chinley appears to have dropped off the radar at this stage but might need to be revived should biomass trains through the Hope Valley come to pass.
The revised proposals are now being considered by the DfT as part of the T&WA application.
The other complicating factor arises from the Stockport MBC and TfGM rail study which envisages the operation of tram trains over parts of the route through southern Manchester used/ or could be used by biomass trains. This could involve redoubling of stretches of track between Northenden and Hazel Grove, together with the development of protocols to allow mixed mode /operation.
These factors would tend to put the prospect of Biomass trains through the Hope Valley at some point in the future. In the meantime there is the present to cope with. 6E10 starts at the Biomass Terminal at 08.20 hours,drops the banker (or should that be header at Tuebrook after arriving at 08,56 but then has to wait until 12.21 before departing to Drax arriving at 19.03.The return journey is quicker with a maximum speed of 75mph as opposed to 60mph. This would suggest a wagon set utilisation of one rotation per day which seems relatively inefficient. Now I appreciate that stock diagrams have to exist not only to and from Tuebrook but also Immingham,Hull and Port of Tyne and that we are only in a shakedown phase of one train per day but I still wonder when we ramp up to five trains per day in each direction (which I take to be the meaning of press comments about 10 trains per day) whether the current round the houses route will remain viable in terms of the number of vehicle sets required? Could it be that after North Trans Pennine electrification we might see GBRF liveried TRAXX electric locomotive, with last mile diesel capability for the merry go round loaders and unloaders, zipping over Standedge at 75mph. If so is this being built in to the track upgrade plans of the now unpaused project?

 

[Greybeard33]

In the meantime there is the present to cope with. 6E10 starts at the Biomass Terminal at 08.20 hours,drops the banker (or should that be header at Tuebrook after arriving at 08,56 but then has to wait until 12.21 before departing to Drax arriving at 19.03.The return journey is quicker with a maximum speed of 75mph as opposed to 60mph. This would suggest a wagon set utilisation of one rotation per day which seems relatively inefficient. Now I appreciate that stock diagrams have to exist not only to and from Tuebrook but also Immingham,Hull and Port of Tyne and that we are only in a shakedown phase of one train per day but I still wonder when we ramp up to five trains per day in each direction (which I take to be the meaning of press comments about 10 trains per day) whether the current round the houses route will remain viable in terms of the number of vehicle sets required? Could it be that after North Trans Pennine electrification we might see GBRF liveried TRAXX electric locomotive, with last mile diesel capability for the merry go round loaders and unloaders, zipping over Standedge at 75mph. If so is this being built in to the track upgrade plans of the now unpaused project?

From GBRf press release of 27th October (my bolding):

The Port of Liverpool is a loading location included on GBRf’s contract for hook and haul services with Drax Power. GBRf currently runs two sets of Drax wagons.

This operation represents the start of Phase 1 of the Liverpool project, with phase 2 to be completed in 2016. The objective is to stimulate greater throughput at the new terminal increasing trains from this location, and ultimately using four sets of wagons to move up to 3mt of biomass per annum from Liverpool (Peel Ports) to Drax Power Station.

A major challenge to establishing this new flow to Drax was securing paths across the TransPennine rail network. Previously the majority of freight operations east-west have been residual traffic. Two years ago Drax, working with Network Rail and GBRf, identified viable paths that could support a train plan to and from the Port. GB Railfreight has since been working closely with Network Rail and Drax to make this service a reality.

http://www.gbrailfreight.com/media-centre/news-releases/

The above suggests to me that GBRf sees the current route and traction from Liverpool as the long term solution. http://orr.gov.uk/__data/assets/pdf_file/0006/18897/s17-gb-railfreight-appendix-a-liverpool-drax-biomass-supporting-info.pdf gives more details of the planning process and says that trains will be permitted to run on the Heaton Norris to Ashton Moss line Sunday daytimes. The Network Rail Track Access Application says that the new Level 2 Rights are for up to 9 daily return trains per day from Liverpool/Tuebrook to Drax (not sure where the press story got 10 from).

 

[furnessvale]

GBRF will move upto 3m tonnes pa. at 1600 tonnes per train that equates to 36 trains a week over 52 weeks, which equals 6 loaded trains, 6 days a week.

Allowing for Chrismas, weekends, variations in flow etc., I could well envisage days on which 10 loaded trains would move.

 

[Greybeard33]

GBRF will move upto 3m tonnes pa. at 1600 tonnes per train that equates to 36 trains a week over 52 weeks, which equals 6 loaded trains, 6 days a week.

Allowing for Chrismas, weekends, variations in flow etc., I could well envisage days on which 10 loaded trains would move.

Thanks, I was hoping someone would do the maths and save me the trouble! According to the NR document, Drax has a total of 275 wagons on order for delivery by next year, enough to form 11 trains. So no problem filling all nine paths with each train making one round trip per day.

I imagine Drax will have an option to order more wagons if the conversion of a fourth generation unit goes ahead.

 

[furnessvale]

Thanks, I was hoping someone would do the maths and save me the trouble! According to the NR document, Drax has a total of 275 wagons on order for delivery by next year, enough to form 11 trains. So no problem filling all nine paths with each train making one round trip per day.

I imagine Drax will have an option to order more wagons if the conversion of a fourth generation unit goes ahead.

GBRF are talking about allocating 4 rakes. If they can run one and a half trips a day per rake, those 4 rakes can just maintain the necessary 6 loads per day, perhaps augmented with other rakes at busy times.

 

[8A Rail]

GBRF will move upto 3m tonnes pa. at 1600 tonnes per train that equates to 36 trains a week over 52 weeks, which equals 6 loaded trains, 6 days a week.
Allowing for Chrismas, weekends, variations in flow etc., I could well envisage days on which 10 loaded trains would move.

Nope! "Drax" trains are using 25 hopper sets allowing for upto 2400 tonnes per train to be shifted. I believe that four sets will be in use when the full programme is implemented in July 16. One / two of those sets on a good day, will do two turns in 24 hrs to Drax PS.

 

[Greybeard33]

Nope! "Drax" trains are using 25 hopper sets allowing for upto 2400 tonnes per train to be shifted. I believe that four sets will be in use when the full programme is implemented in July 16. One / two of those sets on a good day, will do two turns in 24 hrs to Drax PS.

According to RTT, 2400 tonnes is the gross weight of the loaded train, while the returning empties weigh 800 tonnes. This gives a biomass weight of 1600 tonnes per train, as stated in the GBRf press release I linked above and used by furnessvale in his calculation. The round trip is currently taking more than 12 hours, so I do not think two trips a day by the same set will be feasible.

 

[Camden]

If Drax are using up 6 out of 9 paths per day, and may use up to the whole 9 in due course, is this the entire rail capacity out of the port used up already?

 

[Greybeard33]

If Drax are using up 6 out of 9 paths per day, and may use up to the whole 9 in due course, is this the entire rail capacity out of the port used up already?

The Track Access Application identified

...three key bottlenecks along the lines of route – namely
Heaton Norris Junction (Stockport), Heaton Lodge Junction/Mirfield East Junction and
Brewery Curve/Thorpes Bridge Junction.

This implies that there could still be capacity out of the port to other destinations, which would not use this route.

 

[8A Rail]

According to RTT, 2400 tonnes is the gross weight of the loaded train, while the returning empties weigh 800 tonnes. This gives a biomass weight of 1600 tonnes per train, as stated in the GBRf press release I linked above and used by furnessvale in his calculation. The round trip is currently taking more than 12 hours, so I do not think two trips a day by the same set will be feasible.

Thank you for correction (brain was not in gear although I write earlier about GLW!! ) However, current paths have some slack in them and did say on a good day! By the time the whole plan is implemented the paths will be amended as you have two timetable changes before then too.

The Track Access Application identified

This implies that there could still be capacity out of the port to other destinations, which would not use this route.

Yes, at least two paths per hour from the docks if pushed but then the other problem to overcome although possible, gaining access to the L&M line or crossing over to Wapping to go LNWR route. Easier over night obviously.

 

[mwmbwls]

The Track Access Application identified
The Track Access Application identified...three key bottlenecks along the lines of route – namely Heaton Norris Junction (Stockport), Heaton Lodge Junction/Mirfield East Junction and Brewery Curve/Thorpes Bridge Junction.
This implies that there could still be capacity out of the port to other destinations, which would not use this route.This implies that there could still be capacity out of the port to other destinations, which would not use this route.

IIRC around 2010 Network Rail noted constraints from the port arising from the long signalling sections on the dock branch. Have these matters been already resolved or are they being resolved as part of this current round of expansion? With regard to other destinations, the Welsh Press has reported that the new CHP power station facility to be built on the Angelsey Aluminium Site at Holyhead may be a potential user of Liverpool's facility - although it is intended to re-engineer the former smelter's pier and conveyor system at the Port of Holyhead to import biomass as well..

 

[Camden]

If Drax are using up 6 out of 9 paths per day, and may use up to the whole 9 in due course, is this the entire rail capacity out of the port used up already?

Can I have a more qualified and expansive answer to this, if anyone is able to please.

I'm looking for a proper quantification of what capacity there likely now is in/out of the port.

 

[8A Rail]

Can I have a more qualified and expansive answer to this, if anyone is able to please.
I'm looking for a proper quantification of what capacity there likely now is in/out of the port.

Capacity at the port, hinges on the capacity of the Bootle Branch Line which you already appreciate.

In theory (& in practice), only three (four?) trains are allowed on the branch at any one time, two in up direction, one in down direction. If I'm correct, the reason for one only in down direction, I think that NR like a train to clear Strand Road Crossing before they let one on the Branch again. Although, there is another section on the Branch whether it is Edge Lane Junction to Olive Mount Junction or Bootle Branch Junction, I have never seen a train at held at either of those sections and a train at the home signal for Edge Lane Junction. So assumption is made that it is either not possible or there is preference not to allow it to happen?

As far as I am aware, one section is Strand Road Crossing to Bootle Junction, the other is from there to Edge Lane Junction. For the latter section they generally timed / allowed approx 20 minutes to clear before another train is allowed into it. So in theory again, you could have two trains every hour in each direction in and out of the docks, given that there is four loading areas (EMR Alex Dock, LBT, Atlantic Terminal and Seaforth CT), so you could have four trains at least inside the docks complex.

When the "coal" trains were operating, given this was over a 20+ year period, there were 12 paths alone for those trains every week day although it never happened. But on top of those 12 paths, there were paths in for the Scrap and Freightliner trains too which could be another 2/3/4 on any given day. And this was before the Branch was upgraded to take account of the reopened Olive Mount Spur.

The capacity of the Branch could be increased if NR upgrade the line again, and put in another signalled section. Personally, as stated before, the Branch is not the issue, it is getting off the Branch is the real issue whether at Bootle Bch Junction or Olive Mount Junction.

However, if my answer is not what you are seeking, then hopefully there is a NR railway employee member who will be able to assist and clarify. I for one would appreciate it and I may learn something new whether correction or otherwise again.

 

[Camden]

I think you're getting close at the end. Getting off the branch and out to the wider country, via the various options.

How many paths out of Liverpool docks into/from the rest of the UK are realistically left after drax? (And I suppose a knock-on, how quickly might those get used up?).

 

[8A Rail]

I think you're getting close at the end. Getting off the branch and out to the wider country, via the various options.

How many paths out of Liverpool docks into/from the rest of the UK are realistically left after drax? (And I suppose a knock-on, how quickly might those get used up?).

There lies the 64000 dollar question! I dont think anyone actually knows. Currently the only "other" trains that use the docks is the weekly Tinsley-Seaforth Steel train and may be just the odd scrap train. That's it! Until someone shows an interest in wanting to run in and out of the docks by train, then I doubt anyone is going to worry about it! Don't bank on Liverpool 2 generating any train movements for container traffic in the short to medium term though. Watch this space and see what happens.

 

[Camden]

There are only so many lines radiating out from the Port and out of Liverpool, though - there must be a way of us roughly mapping that ourselves?

In the UK, rail itself gets very little done in the short to medium term!!!

 

[mwmbwls]

Rail Magazine reported on the 16th March 2012

Final Operations Cease at Once Important Yorkshire Railway Yards

One of the UK’s most well-known freight railway locations has finally closed after a protracted run-down, as DB Schenker closed its staff depot at Healey Mills, West Yorkshire. The 140-acre site was once one of Europe’s largest marshalling yards, but over the past two decades the yards have become obsolete, the depot closed and now freight trains no longer call there to change crews.

Healey Mills opened in 1963 in attempt to modernise wagon-load traffic. It replaced a dozen smaller yards in the area and its purpose was to improve the efficiency of sorting and marshalling wagons into trains before sending them off to their destination. The yards featured hump-shunting, in which wagons were pushed over a ‘hump’, freewheeled into the required siding, and braked using special retarders next to the rails - all controlled from a centralised operations tower.

A purpose-built diesel depot opened alongside the yards at the end of 1966 and the two facilities saw round the clock activity with a claimed capacity of 4,000 wagons per day. Situated to the west of Wakefield, Healey Mills was ideally located for sending and receiving trains to all parts of the country, as well as handling the large number of local coal trains at the time.

But wagon-load railfreight came under increasing threat in the 1970s and 1980s due to competition from road transport. Then a double blow came with the decline of the Yorkshire coal industry and resultant reduction in coal trains, which had once formed up to 50 percent of traffic at Healey Mills.

As a result, the depot lost its own allocation of locomotives in 1984 and the marshalling yards closed in 1987 - although both were still used for stabling locomotives and trains until the early 2000s.

The redundant sidings were then used to store long lines of withdrawn Class 37, 47, 56 and 58 locomotives until 2010, after which the only operations at Healey Mills were for crew changes of passing freight trains.

From February 4, these crew changes now take place a few miles away at Wakefield Kirkgate station, where portable cabins have been installed as temporary offices. All that remains at Healey Mills are the overgrown sidings, a few redundant wagons, and the buildings awaiting demolition.

Has the site been redeveloped since 2012?

 

[Greybeard33]

There lies the 64000 dollar question! I dont think anyone actually knows. Currently the only "other" trains that use the docks is the weekly Tinsley-Seaforth Steel train and may be just the odd scrap train. That's it! Until someone shows an interest in wanting to run in and out of the docks by train, then I doubt anyone is going to worry about it! Don't bank on Liverpool 2 generating any train movements for container traffic in the short to medium term though. Watch this space and see what happens.

There are also the GBRf biomass trains from the Bulk Terminal to Ironbridge Power Station. There seem to be 2-3 per day at the moment.

 

[LNW-GW Joint]

There are also the GBRf biomass trains from the Bulk Terminal to Ironbridge Power Station. There seem to be 2-3 per day at the moment.

Ironbridge is due to close at the end of the year.

 

[Freightmaster]

Ironbridge is due to close at the end of the year.

End of this month, more like!

MARK

 

[furnessvale]

End of this month, more like!

MARK

Given the rapid rundown of coal capacity, it seems strange to be closing a biomass station, even if it is approaching end of life.

 

[Freightmaster]

Given the rapid rundown of coal capacity, it seems strange to be closing a biomass station, even if it is approaching end of life.

Eon don't have a choice in the matter - Ironbridge will soon reach
the maximum permitted number of hours (20,000) that it is allowed
to continue generating for without installing prohibitively expensive
'emission abatement' measures.

More info is available on Eon's website:

http://www.eon-uk.com/1421.aspx


MARK

 

[Wavertreelad]

I know Peel have looked at the number of paths available to and from the Port and at time, about eighteen months ago, and a figure of about 14 was mentioned. However, whether that included existing movements at the time or not was not clear. At the time the discussion was about reopening the Canada Dock route for the scrap metal trade in Husisson and Canada Docks. This route is no longer going to be developed and instead Peel has indicated it will connect these docks to the existing network at Alexandra Dock.

 

[childwallblues]

There are only so many lines radiating out from the Port and out of Liverpool, though - there must be a way of us roughly mapping that ourselves?

In the UK, rail itself gets very little done in the short to medium term!!!

Signalling improvements between Edge Lane Junction and the Docks could vastly increase the number of paths.

 

[Camden]

That is also something that would need quantifying, in order to answer the question fully. And that only covers from inside Liverpool to the dock, it doesn't cover getting into Liverpool in the first place.

However I'm really only interested in present state. There are a lot of things that could be done to increase capacity (such as HS2 line, for example), but at present the capacity is finite according to its present limits, and I'd be interested to know how much is left, perhaps per direction.

 

[8A Rail]

I won't add anymore to this thread as clearly some members don't seem to read my responses and the "good faith" information given, especially I've been photographing and watching the trains in and out the docks since 1989 - along with knowing the layout at the docks and being familiar with the Bootle Branch line! I really don't know what more can be added in regards to the current and future operations in and out of the docks in the circumstances as I doubt N.R., Freight companies, Train operators and Peel Holdings know the answers either until some one wants a train in and out of the docks!

 

[Camden]

I won't add anymore to this thread as clearly some members don't seem to read my responses

If your answer is "I don't know" then what more would there be to add. I did read your response, but I'd like to see if anyone else can answer the question you can't.

There are only so many lines radiating out of the Port, through Liverpool, heading north, east and south. There are only so many paths available on all these lines, both converged and unconverged. Some people on these forums have a remarkable talent for being able to crunch these kinds of data sources and subsequent equations.

I feel sure that there are some on here who can get the answer to an approximation much closer than just "who knows".