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New freight flows from Liverpool docks investment

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Wavertreelad

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No need to discuss this as we have done so previously on another thread but just say we have a little difference of opinion on this subject although we both want "liner" trains to recommence to/from the docks. Interesting bit about China Shipping, that it now warrants a ship to carry the containers between the two ports were previously they may been transferred to Felixstowe (?) and then transferred by train.

Agree, and to be fair I am looking at it from a slightly different angle. Basically all the global major shipping lines all work with groups, 2M comprising Maersk and MSC (No 1 & 2 globally in capacity), G6 comprising six lines Hapag Lloyd, OOCL, NYK, APL, Mitsui, and Hyundai. CHYK includes Hanjin, K Line Yang Ming and Evergreen and finally 3 Oceans comprising CMA-CGM, China Shipping and United Arab Shipping (UASC) to which Hamburg Sud cooperates. Some of the groups are global, others are confined to specific trades like on Europe to Montreal Hapag partner OOCL both of G6, with 2M member MSC. The rest of G6 serves Canada via Halifax NS on a Southampton service operated by Hapag, whilst Maersk operates a completely independent service to both Montreal and Halifax that has no UK Port call. All four groups operates between North Europe including the Meditterrean and the Far East, China with multiple weekly services covering different port combinations. Some Carriers call eastbound at the Middle East, and westbound at Colombo but none call at Indian west coast ports and Pakistan which are not equipped to handle much above 9000 teu vessels. The four groups all operate multiple sailings across the Atlantic but port call combinations differ but Liverpool only handles vessels to and from ports north of Cape Hatteras. At the moment all bar one service from North Europe turn back to North Europe either on the USA East Coast or Gulf Ports, including Mexico. The one exception transits the Panama Canal and calls at Los Angeles and Oakland before transiting the Pacific to China and Japan before returning the same route. The four groups all operate in the Pacific and from the Far East to USA East Coast via Suez.

At the moment only a limited number of US Ports can handle anything about 9000 teu, and critically this excludes New York and New Jersey which is by far the largest port on the US East and Gulf Coasts. At the moment much of America's trade with the Far East and China moves through Los Angeles and Oakland and is railed across the country. When the widened Panama Canal locks open for traffic next year the present restriction of about 5000 teu will be removed making it possible for vessels of up to 14000 teu to sail to and from the East Coast of America to the Far East and China, potentially reducing costs and also avoiding the chaos that tends to happen when the stevedores contracts expires and work to rules start.

The ability to use these larger ships on more trades and particularly the Atlantic will allow the carriers to configure their various services and port calls to better utilise these large containerships on a global basis and could have significant implications for Liverpool and the UK presence reliance on services into the south of England. Only this week, G6 and CMA have introduced direct port calls on their Europe Far East services to Gdynia in Poland and Iskerderun in Turkey as the cargo flows can justify the call, and with the present overcapacity and falling rate levels , carriers are looking for niche markets.

The Port of Liverpool is at the moment a none base port as far as the carriers serving the Far East trades are concerned, so they impose a premium charge of about US$200.00 per container on containers transhipped into the port from Antwerp, Rotterdam and Le Havre. If the Carrier serving Felixstowe or Southampton charges a full round trip cost of the import move to say Manchester, the cost could be as high as GBP800.00 or more. Paying the premium and the local haulage from Liverpool would be considerably cheaper but the transit time because of the feeder operation is increased by about a week, so at the moment the feeder operation really only tends to appeal to owners of none time sensitive or low value cargo. Any carrier calling direct would probably reduce the base port premium or even waive it in a effort to secure support and gain market share. MSC have the most experience and are now operating two sailing a week to and from Antwerp, I would estimate exchanging about 3000 teu per week judging by the size of vessel employed. CMA-CGM operate two smaller 800 teu vessels from Le Havre plus a similar size vessel from Rotterdam which is part of it's Iberian coverage through subsidiary Macandrews. This subsidiary operates a weekly service to Portugal and three services a week to Bilbao all in the 800/900 teu range. Some North American Carriers serving Liverpool use these services as feeder operation to service the Iberian peninsular. CMA-CGM and Macandrews serve Dublin, Belfast and Greenock on some of the Liverpool service, and they swap slots with Peel owned Coastal Container Line and Rotterdam based but Peel owner BG Freight Lines who provide up to three sailings a week serving Rotterdam and Liverpool as well as Dublin, Belfast and Greenock with one service also calling Felixstowe en route to Liverpool. Finally X-express container lines offer a weekly feeder from Southampton to Liverpool.

Whilst X-press operates as a pure feeder operator, BG also offers it's own European service , but the main business is also feedering for the major carriers, their biggest customer being Maersk. Typically, the X-press service will carry containers from APL, Hapag, ACL, CMA and it's subsidiaries, NYK, OOCL although some of these lines may restrict their use to certain customers or trades. BG services, carry containers for Evergreen, ACL, Hapag, MSC, Hamburg Sud, CMA-CGM, China Shipping and Maersk for mainly for Dublin and Belfast. Maersk and some of these carriers restrict the service to certain customers only.

ACL feed cargo to and from Antwerp for their Grimaldi services to West Africa, Brasil and Mediterranean on their North Atlantic service as does Hapag Lloyd, whilst Hapag/OOCL and MSC all have the option of the joint Montreal service to feeder containers to and from Antwerp, Bremen and Le Havre if necessary.

Due to all the slot sharing and multiple port rotations it's impossible to provide accurate numbers of containers using the feeder operations but given the size and number of vessels deployed the assumption must be in the numbers are in the several thousands a week. Of course, most of these containers will be destined or originate from "local" industry so distribution by rail in most cases would not be economic. However, securing these local volumes using feeder operations is crucial to encourage the global carriers to call Liverpool, the big difficulty is that Peel has now to convince multiple carriers in a group to secure a port call, instead of just one carrier.

As far as the China Shipping question is concerned, I would doubt that this policy is a question of volume exceeding train capacity, I suspect it's more to do with gaining local market share to reduce the number of empties being returned to China which have to be paid for by the shipowner.
 
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Wavertreelad

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It's been posted on the Skyscraper City forum

"Mersytravel Committee voted last week to end the safe guarding of the Canada Dock Branch and make it available to the Homes and Communities Agency (who own it and want to sell it for development) for development. A rail connectivity study was commissioned to see if it would damage future freight access to the Port of Liverpool and it found reusing the branch would cost £40m while extending a new line south from Alexandra Dock along Regent Road to Canada Dock would only cost £17-25m and so the ability to cater to future demand would be preserved"

http://www.skyscrapercity.com/showpost.php?p=125295919&postcount=3102
 

Wavertreelad

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Carried over from the Halton Curve thread.

Please stray back on topic in this thread! If you want to discuss the future of rail freight (or anything else) then feel free to start a new, dedicated thread, but please can we keep this one related tot eh Halton curve? Thanks!

Agree, so am quoting the last few posts to this thread which was created earlier for the purpose.

The big picture is not so rosy.
Biomass trains from Liverpool replace coal from somewhere else (Hunstanton, Immingham?) to Drax - meaning less traffic over lines like the S&C.
It needs new generating capacity for real growth, and there's no sign of that for solid fuel types.
The closure of Ferrybridge, Ironbridge and Longannet power stations means a decline of train movements overall.
Hopefully nuclear traffic from Wylfa will come back one day.

The very big picture is that coal and, eventually, biomass will cease altogether. They will be replaced with gas and, hopefully, renewables, which don't need rail. We are not talking far distant futures either.

Hatfield and Thoresby pits have shut recently (meaning the end of conventional revenue-earning service on the LDECR unless the Shirebrook-Ollerton dream comes to pass, by the way) leaving just one British pit, and that not for long.

For rail freight to have an expanding future (or even to hold its own) it has to crack the cost and convenience conundrum.

Most freight is wagonload or less, just look at any motorway. If rail freight can't crack wagonload traffic its future outside containers from ports is bleak.

What became of Freight Multiple Units?


I fear we may be straying from the thread but I'm not even sure containers is a guaranteed growth area in the longer term. Once Liverpool2 opens and starts to attract the deep sea shipping lines there could be less demand for the present number north to south and vice versa rail movements as business is transferred to the new terminal. Now I emphasise that these north to south movements will not totally disappear because there will be operation in the south of England that are not served from Liverpool2, but with growth in the market likely to be centred on the Seaforth railhead, what long term future is there for Garston, and perhaps even Trafford Park I believe is also on Peel land? Liverpool2 could generate traffic for the south of England and the Midlands, as well as east of the Pennines, but Peels own water based feeder services to Greenock could capture a large amount of traffic to and from Scotland. I think there was a thread started on the Liverpool2 development, perhaps it's something that needs further discussion?

It's gone very quiet on the rail connection to Port Salford too.

I suspect this may also be in limbo until the autumn when the Government complete their spending review.

In the meantime Peel is continuing to ramp up feeder services into Liverpool whilst CMA-CGM has also reconfigured it's services, dropping Le Havre as the feeder hub for their Irish Sea services and moving it to Southampton. I've posted a full summary on the Skyscraper City thread

http://www.skyscrapercity.com/showpost.php?p=125911536&postcount=564
 

chorleyjeff

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Freights out of Liverpool for Blackburn and the S & C / Hebden Bridge routes used to run up to Preston via Ormskirk and then via a curve at Farington through Lostock Hall that was taken out of use a few decades ago. It would be easy to put it back. I remember seeing a Brush Type 4 with about 50 wagons on going round the curve circa 1968.

What curve?
My recollection is that Ormskirk to Blackburn was a straight run through Lostock Hall ( crossing over the WCML just South of Farington Curve junction) and Bamber Bridge and on to Blackburn. This being the route the L&Y passenger trains from Liverpool to Scotland via Blackburn used)
The line from Lostock Hall to Ormskirk was a fast straight double track road rather than the single track rock and roll ride it is now.
Or is my memory ( not of L&Y trains !) wrong?
 

childwallblues

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What curve?
My recollection is that Ormskirk to Blackburn was a straight run through Lostock Hall ( crossing over the WCML just South of Farington Curve junction) and Bamber Bridge and on to Blackburn. This being the route the L&Y passenger trains from Liverpool to Scotland via Blackburn used)
The line from Lostock Hall to Ormskirk was a fast straight double track road rather than the single track rock and roll ride it is now.
Or is my memory ( not of L&Y trains !) wrong?
Quite correct except that the passenger traffic to Scotland travelled via Farington Curve Junction and through Preston.
 

Senex

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Quite correct except that the passenger traffic to Scotland travelled via Farington Curve Junction and through Preston.

If you go back to pre-Grouping days there were Midland Railway Liverpool-Scotland services which ran via Blackburn and thus took the direct line over the top at Lostock Hall.
 

Greybeard33

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I'm not even sure containers is a guaranteed growth area in the longer term. Once Liverpool2 opens and starts to attract the deep sea shipping lines there could be less demand for the present number north to south and vice versa rail movements as business is transferred to the new terminal. Now I emphasise that these north to south movements will not totally disappear because there will be operation in the south of England that are not served from Liverpool2, but with growth in the market likely to be centred on the Seaforth railhead, what long term future is there for Garston, and perhaps even Trafford Park I believe is also on Peel land? Liverpool2 could generate traffic for the south of England and the Midlands, as well as east of the Pennines, but Peels own water based feeder services to Greenock could capture a large amount of traffic to and from Scotland.
It's gone very quiet on the rail connection to Port Salford too.
I do not think the Trafford Park intermodal terminals are on Peel land? Peel does own land in Trafford Park, but further north, on the other side of the Bridgewater Canal. As I understand it, of the two adjacent but rival terminals, the Euroterminal, next to the CLC rail line, is now owned by DB Schenker and also used by GB Railfreight, while the Freightliner terminal, behind it to the north, is owned by ...er... Freightliner.

The Freightliner terminal is the better used of the two, with regular services to/from the southern ports. The Euroterminal was a "white elephant", built in the '90s for Chunnel traffic that never materialised. Recently, however, DBS has been attracting more traffic from London Gateway (see https://www.rail.dbschenker.co.uk/rail-uk-en/News_Media/news/8810462/Rail_UK_doubles_services.html?start=10) as well as existing services from Southampton and Mossend and GBRf services from Felixstowe.

I believe it has been suggested that the proposed rail connection from Port Salford to the Chat Moss line could enable Port Salford to supplant the Trafford Park terminals and so release freight paths on the congested line through Manchester Oxford Road for more passenger services. However, as Wavertreelad points out, Peel's strategy for Liverpool2, if successful, will cannibalise intermodal rail freight from the southern ports to the North West. So entrusting Peel with the future of Manchester's intermodal rail freight might be akin to putting the fox in charge of the henhouse! Although Peel seems to be dragging its feet over the Port Salford rail link: http://www.manchestereveningnews.co.uk/business/business-news/culina-group-create-280-jobs-8899409
 

Wavertreelad

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I do not think the Trafford Park intermodal terminals are on Peel land? Peel does own land in Trafford Park, but further north, on the other side of the Bridgewater Canal. As I understand it, of the two adjacent but rival terminals, the Euroterminal, next to the CLC rail line, is now owned by DB Schenker and also used by GB Railfreight, while the Freightliner terminal, behind it to the north, is owned by ...er... Freightliner.

The Freightliner terminal is the better used of the two, with regular services to/from the southern ports. The Euroterminal was a "white elephant", built in the '90s for Chunnel traffic that never materialised. Recently, however, DBS has been attracting more traffic from London Gateway (see https://www.rail.dbschenker.co.uk/rail-uk-en/News_Media/news/8810462/Rail_UK_doubles_services.html?start=10) as well as existing services from Southampton and Mossend and GBRf services from Felixstowe.

I believe it has been suggested that the proposed rail connection from Port Salford to the Chat Moss line could enable Port Salford to supplant the Trafford Park terminals and so release freight paths on the congested line through Manchester Oxford Road for more passenger services. However, as Wavertreelad points out, Peel's strategy for Liverpool2, if successful, will cannibalise intermodal rail freight from the southern ports to the North West. So entrusting Peel with the future of Manchester's intermodal rail freight might be akin to putting the fox in charge of the henhouse! Although Peel seems to be dragging its feet over the Port Salford rail link: http://www.manchestereveningnews.co.uk/business/business-news/culina-group-create-280-jobs-8899409

I know that Peel, as owners of the Manchester Ship Canal own large amounts of land either side it for it's whole length and as far as I know this is the case at the Salford end of the canal. This 1924 map of the area is said to show the Trafford Park estate although exactly where the boundaries are is a little bit of a mystery. Any clarification would be welcome.

https://commons.wikimedia.org/wiki/File:Salford_docks_1924.jpg#/media/File:Salford_docks_1924.jpg

Assuming that Peel own the land on which the railheads are built and given their proposals for the area, I suspect the land could be worth considerably more if redeveloped. Port Salford is happening although it may be sometime before the rail connection is completed.
 

chorleyjeff

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Quite correct except that the passenger traffic to Scotland travelled via Farington Curve Junction and through Preston.

In later years yes. I remember those trains well and used them from time to time.
But the context was a flow of traffic from Liverpool to Blackburn and onwards which was a straight route South of Preston and was the route used by L&Y/Midland trains to Scotland in the early years. Also by Liverpol to East Lancashire trains. In BR days the stopping trains from Liverpool used the straight line on to Lostock Hall and then did a sharp left to join the EL line into Preston.
 

childwallblues

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In later years yes. I remember those trains well and used them from time to time.
But the context was a flow of traffic from Liverpool to Blackburn and onwards which was a straight route South of Preston and was the route used by L&Y/Midland trains to Scotland in the early years. Also by Liverpol to East Lancashire trains. In BR days the stopping trains from Liverpool used the straight line on to Lostock Hall and then did a sharp left to join the EL line into Preston.

Sharp left - Todd lane Junction into platforms at Preston were the multi-storey car park is today.
 

Greybeard33

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I know that Peel, as owners of the Manchester Ship Canal own large amounts of land either side it for it's whole length and as far as I know this is the case at the Salford end of the canal. This 1924 map of the area is said to show the Trafford Park estate although exactly where the boundaries are is a little bit of a mystery. Any clarification would be welcome.

https://commons.wikimedia.org/wiki/File:Salford_docks_1924.jpg#/media/File:Salford_docks_1924.jpg

Assuming that Peel own the land on which the railheads are built and given their proposals for the area, I suspect the land could be worth considerably more if redeveloped. Port Salford is happening although it may be sometime before the rail connection is completed.
According to Wikipedia, the Bridgewater Canal forms the southern boundary of the Trafford Park estate:
Trafford Park is almost entirely surrounded by water; the Bridgewater Canal forms its southeastern and southwestern boundaries, and the Manchester Ship Canal, which opened in 1894, its northeastern and northwestern boundaries.
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Trafford_Park

The two rail terminals both lie south of the Bridgewater Canal so are not on estate land. I think the site was owned by BR before privatisation.

In any case I believe it is an incorrect assumption that Peel owns all of the estate land, which historically was never owned by the Ship Canal Company. Canmoor Asset Management appears to be a major lessor. See http://www.canmoor.com/news/view/project-merlin-completes, https://www.trafford.gov.uk/business/locations-for-business/docs/trafford-park-brochure.pdf and http://www.traffordpark-manchester.com/contact.html.

Peel Land and Property is promoting its Trafford Waters development, http://www.traffordwaters.co.uk/, but that is to the west, on Ship Canal land, near the intu Trafford Centre (which Peel developed but has since sold to Capital Shopping Centres, although Peel is a large minority shareholder in CSC).
 

Wavertreelad

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According to Wikipedia, the Bridgewater Canal forms the southern boundary of the Trafford Park estate:

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Trafford_Park

The two rail terminals both lie south of the Bridgewater Canal so are not on estate land. I think the site was owned by BR before privatisation.

In any case I believe it is an incorrect assumption that Peel owns all of the estate land, which historically was never owned by the Ship Canal Company. Canmoor Asset Management appears to be a major lessor. See http://www.canmoor.com/news/view/project-merlin-completes, https://www.trafford.gov.uk/business/locations-for-business/docs/trafford-park-brochure.pdf and http://www.traffordpark-manchester.com/contact.html.

Peel Land and Property is promoting its Trafford Waters development, http://www.traffordwaters.co.uk/, but that is to the west, on Ship Canal land, near the intu Trafford Centre (which Peel developed but has since sold to Capital Shopping Centres, although Peel is a large minority shareholder in CSC).

According to my information, the Manchester Ship Canal Act of 1885 committed the company to buying the Bridgewater Canal Company within two years, although whether it happened I am yet to verify and of course that does not necessarily guarantee that the MSC still owns the area. I also believe that an asset management company does not necessarily have to own the asset as it may simply manage it on behalf of others. Peel does operate some sites with joint ventures so it might make sense for an established location to be run by an alternative party.
--- old post above --- --- new post below ---

First Phase of £100m Liverpool biomass terminal nears completion


Transport Select Committee chair Louise Ellman MP visits facility, which will soon support the EU’s largest decarbonisation project at Drax Power Station

Work is nearing completion on the first phase of the new £100m biomass terminal at the Port of Liverpool, which will eventually handle three million tonnes of wood pellets a year as part of the decarbonisation of Drax Power Station.

Liverpool Riverside MP, Louise Ellman visited the site on Friday, (August 7) to inspect the project, which will connect one of the busiest ports in the north to the UK’s single largest generator of renewable power.

The first phase of the new terminal, which will create 47 permanent jobs at the Port of Liverpool, will open in October when four trains a day begin carrying wood pellets to Drax.

Mrs Ellman, chair of the House of Commons Transport Select Committee, met with senior representatives from Peel Ports and Drax Group, to find out more about the project which proves the importance of east west connectivity across the north of England.

The wood pellets – to be shipped to Liverpool from North America – are a by-product of the commercial forestry and saw-milling industry and will provide the Selby-based power station with a sustainable and affordable low carbon fuel source.

Drax’s gradual conversion to biomass, which generates carbon savings of around 86% compared to coal, is a key part of the UK’s efforts to meet its 2020 renewable targets whilst keeping energy costs down for businesses and consumers. The power station is the largest decarbonisation project in Europe and accounted for 12.3% of the UK’s renewable power last year.

All of the wood pellets arriving at the Port of Liverpool will be sent to Drax by rail, ensuring there is no impact on the local road network. Up to 10 train loads of pellets will travel to the power station every day in custom-made biomass rail wagons once the terminal is fully completed in 2016.

The new biomass terminal is an important part of Peel Ports’ strategy around the transfer of freight from road to more sustainable rail and water solutions. The terminal will contribute to the ambitious growth plans for the Port of Liverpool, with the Company already investing £300m to create the UK’s most centrally located deep water container terminal, known as Liverpool2 and which is due to open in December 2015.

Liverpool2 will enable the port to handle the largest container ships in the global fleet while at the same time doubling the port’s container capacity.

During the visit, Mrs Ellman emphasised the important role rail freight plays in powering economic growth in the north of England. She also discussed the employment opportunities associated with the project.

Louise Ellman MP said: “This project must be supported as part of The Northern Powerhouse. It will bring great benefits to Liverpool, including innovation, jobs and new trade opportunities. It is also a fantastic demonstration of the type of investment that will drive economic growth in the region through new port infrastructure, greater connectivity between east and west and new partnerships between great northern assets like the Port of Liverpool and Drax Power Station.”

Drax Head of Supply Chain & Logistics, Graham Backhouse said: “This new Liverpool terminal will add to the facilities on the east coast of England, bolstering our supply chain still further. A robust supply chain is crucial to our operation as we continue the transition from coal to sustainable biomass providing the UK with reliable and affordable energy.”

Warren Marshall, Group Planning Director, Peel Ports said: “It was a pleasure to be able to show Louise around and talk her through the project as it nears completion. Not only are we opening Liverpool up to new trade opportunities but we are creating greater links across the North and unlocking the economic potential of The Northern Powerhouse.”

The announcement of the new terminal in June came shortly after Drax announced that it had saved its 20 millionth metric tonne of carbon since it started burning biomass. The company expects to reach the 50 millionth metric tonne mark in an additional two and a half years and the new terminal at Liverpool is now an important part of that journey.


http://peelports.com/news/first-phase-of-100m-liverpool-biomass-terminal-nears-completion
 
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Greybeard33

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This week GBRf started its biomass service from Peel's new Liverpool Bulk Terminal to Drax - see http://www.placenorthwest.co.uk/news/first-freight-train-leaves-100m-drax-terminal/. Yesterday evening I saw 6E27 passing through Altrincham. The brand new, 18m long, hoppers looked impressive in their gleaming paintwork. There have been two trains daily this week, with the eastbound workings via the Mid-Cheshire and Calder Vale lines and the returns running via Manchester Victoria and the Chat Moss line.

The Mid-Cheshire has also seen a daily coal train from Immingham to Fiddlers Ferry and return. What with the regular binliners from Manchester to Runcorn and the limestone deliveries from the Peak District to the Lostock soda ash works, the line seems busier than it has been for years!
 

8A Rail

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This week GBRf started its biomass service from Peel's new Liverpool Bulk Terminal to Drax - see http://www.placenorthwest.co.uk/news/first-freight-train-leaves-100m-drax-terminal/. Yesterday evening I saw 6E27 passing through Altrincham. The brand new, 18m long, hoppers looked impressive in their gleaming paintwork. There have been two trains daily this week, with the eastbound workings via the Mid-Cheshire and Calder Vale lines and the returns running via Manchester Victoria and the Chat Moss line.

The Mid-Cheshire has also seen a daily coal train from Immingham to Fiddlers Ferry and return. What with the regular binliners from Manchester to Runcorn and the limestone deliveries from the Peak District to the Lostock soda ash works, the line seems busier than it has been for years!

I am pleased you put in "new" LBT (Peel) terminal in your message as they were not the first biomass trains to Drax from LBT. That happened last week using a set of 23 Ironbridge PS hoppers with the biomass coming from the original LBT (Eon) terminal. That particular train has continued this week too using the same set and will continue until 50000 tonnes of Drax graded biomass has been cleared. Hence the two trains per day at this current time. Late next week two trains should start operating from LBT (Peel) terminal.
 

furnessvale

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Interesting. When coal was still being moved out of the LBT, a loaded 23 set of HTAs with a single class 60 wasn't far off 2700t (usually around 2400-2600t) and we managed (most of the time) to get out of the docks. This was a dry weather figure by the way. Wet weather was more like 21 loaded.

I'd say your full loads figures are probably a little out. HTA and derivatives are around the 76.5 t capacity mark (prepared to be corrected here). So 27 x 76.5 works out at around 2065 tons.

I presume this talk is about biomass in which case it cubes out before it weighs out therefore a fully loaded wagon, even the new Drax ones, does not weigh 102 tonnes.

GBRF state that each train of 25 Drax wagons carries 1600 tonnes which works out at 64 tonnes per wagon. Allowing about 27 tonnes per wagon tare gives a GVW of around 91 tonnes.
 

mwmbwls

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The Real Time Timetable indicates an eastbound (i.e. loaded) trailing load of 2400 tonnes and a maximum speed of 60mph - whilst westbound the trailing load is 800 tonnes and a maximum speed of 75 mph.This would suggest a tare weight of 32 tonnes per vehicle and a GVW of 96 tonnes. The higher tare weight is not a surprise as Lloyds Register's major design challenge was to maximise the cubic capacity within the existing loading gauge. They shoehorned 116 cubic metres into the design - about 30% more than an IIA. Solving the cubing out problem must have necessitated achieved with some increase in tare weight.This was largely achieved by moving from the classic trapezoid shape of an HAA by using the space at each end of the wagon.

Details were given at the Press Launch at the NRM
The wagon will transport biomass from the Ports of Tyne, Hull and Immingham to Drax Power Station, near Selby, for use in generating low carbon, renewable electricity. At 18.9m long with top doors stretching 18.2m and bottom doors of 3.7m, the supersize wagon has a capacity of 116 cubic metres allowing a biomass load weighing 71.6 tonnes. Its volume is almost 30 per cent bigger than any freight wagon currently used in the UK.
The wagon is technically advanced, with unique door designs and a patented product flow control system to manage the biomass during discharge.
http://www.lr.org/nl/news_and_event...gns-uks-first-biomass-rail-freight-wagon.aspx
 
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furnessvale

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The Real Time Timetable indicates an eastbound (i.e. loaded) trailing load of 2400 tonnes and a maximum speed of 60mph - whilst westbound the trailing load is 800 tonnes and a maximum speed of 75 mph.This would suggest a tare weight of 32 tonnes per vehicle and a GVW of 96 tonnes. The higher tare weight is not a surprise as Lloyds Register's major design challenge was to maximise the cubic capacity within the existing loading gauge. They shoehorned 116 cubic metres into the design - about 30% more than an HAA. Solving the cubing out problem must have necessitated achieved with some increase in tare weight.This was largely achieved by moving from the classic trapezoid shape of an HAA by using the space at each end of the wagon.

Details were given at the Press Launch at the NRM

Yes. I also have no doubt that biomass will vary in density and some allowance will have been made for that in wagon design and pathing.

Incidentally, when I first saw this design I speculated how long it will be before someone realises its potential for polystyrene granules and other low density products.
 
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Ash Bridge

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I've seen this evening Drax bound service on both last Thursday & Friday evenings pass by where we reside which is close to the top of the 1/132? climb up from Ash Bridge Junc. and from an observers point of view that class 66 really seems to have its work cut, out it appears to be making about 15-20 mph at best and this is around 1.25 miles up from Heaton Norris Junc. it would be interesting to know how it manages over the much more severe Pennine grades.
 
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furnessvale

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I've seen this evening Drax bound service on both last Thursday & Friday evenings pass by where we reside which is close to the top of the 1/132? climb up from Ash Bridge Junc. and from an observers point of view that class 66 really seems to have its work cut, out it appears to be making about 15-20 mph at best and this is around 1.25 miles up from Heaton Norris Junc. it would be interesting to know how it manages over the much more severe Pennine grades.

Looking at RTT, at the moment they seem to be routed via Summit which is the slackest graded Pennine route.

Whether they can find paths for all 10 trains daily after January via that route I don't know. Maybe I'll be spotting one or two up my way (Hope valley). :)
 

Ash Bridge

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Looking at RTT, at the moment they seem to be routed via Summit which is the slackest graded Pennine route.

Whether they can find paths for all 10 trains daily after January via that route I don't know. Maybe I'll be spotting one or two up my way (Hope valley). :)

Bet they would make an impressive sight rolling through Edale or similar :)
 

LNW-GW Joint

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The Real Time Timetable indicates an eastbound (i.e. loaded) trailing load of 2400 tonnes and a maximum speed of 60mph - whilst westbound the trailing load is 800 tonnes and a maximum speed of 75 mph.This would suggest a tare weight of 32 tonnes per vehicle and a GVW of 96 tonnes. The higher tare weight is not a surprise as Lloyds Register's major design challenge was to maximise the cubic capacity within the existing loading gauge. They shoehorned 116 cubic metres into the design - about 30% more than an HAA. Solving the cubing out problem must have necessitated achieved with some increase in tare weight.This was largely achieved by moving from the classic trapezoid shape of an HAA by using the space at each end of the wagon.

Just looking at the route specifications, there are no trans-Pennine routes cleared for more than W7, which must restrict the size of vehicles.
This is the gauge for the CLC and L&Y routes.
The recent work to increase the gauge out of Liverpool to W10 can't be used past Manchester, and only via Chat Moss.
No doubt this would allow larger vehicles to run.
Maybe the TP electrification upgrade will increase the freight gauge too.
 
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furnessvale

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Just looking at the route specifications, there are no trans-Pennine routes cleared for more than W7, which must restrict the size of vehicles.
This is the gauge for the CLC and L&Y routes.
The recent work to increase the gauge out of Liverpool to W10 can't be used past Manchester, and only via Chat Moss.
No doubt this would allow larger vehicles to run.
Maybe the TP electrification upgrade will increase the freight gauge too.

Losing track of my gauges! Just how restrictive is W7 compared to W8a?

Manchester waste travels in 8ft high ISO containers on standard 1m high flats over various pennine routes. The new Drax wagons used out of L'pool are allegedly built as large as possible to comply with BR "standard gauge", presumably meaning W8a.

If W7 is restrictive that could explain the rather convoluted routing of the biomass trains in places!
 

mwmbwls

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Bet they would make an impressive sight rolling through Edale or similar :)

The new Drax wagons were built to the following dimensions

Biomass Wagon – technical specification
1. Unique sole-bar design
2. Length over buffers 18.880m
3. Bogie centres 10.8m
4. Volume/Capacity 116m^3
5. Gauge W6a (W6b)
6. Tare weight 30t
7. Gross Laden Weight (GLW) 102t
8. Length of bottom doors 3724mm
9. Length of top doors 18.2m
10. Material 3CR12 stainless steel for main structure with under-frame in mild steel and aluminium roof doors / S355 at headstock and bolster areas
11. Door operation - fully automatic via lineside magnets (non-contact, zero power)
12. Product flow control - patented product control moveable surfaces
13. Unique discharge door design (to eliminate product spillage)
http://www.drax.com/news/news-artic...in-biomass-supply-chain/#sthash.jA0CdvV1.dpuf
Biomass trains should therefore be able to travel through the Hope Valley once the necessary loops at Bamford, Dore and Chinley are built. Is there any further word on those developments?
The odd OHLE train at Sheffield might be an issue – one day.
Could better informed members comment on any potential pinch points between Sheffield and Drax.
Using the link from Northenden to Hazel Grove could avoid the messy all lines crossing at Heaton Norris (Northbound) and Edgeley Junction (Southbound) and the wait at Ashton Moss.
 
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furnessvale

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The new Drax wagons were built to the following dimensions


Biomass trains should therefore be able to travel through the Hope Valley once the necessary loops at Hathersage, Dore and Chinley are built. Is there any further word on those developments?
The odd OHLE train at Sheffield might be an issue – one day.
Could better informed members comment on any potential pinch points between Sheffield and Drax.
Using the link from Northenden to Hazel Grove could avoid the messy all lines crossing at Heaton Norris (Northbound) and Edgeley Junction (Southbound) and the wait at Ashton Moss.

Thanks for that. I am most definitely getting my gauges mixed up. Where I got W8a from, God only knows. Of course the standard freightgauge is W6a, so W7 betters it, and all pennine routes can cope with the new wagons!
 

Greybeard33

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The new Drax wagons were built to the following dimensions

Biomass trains should therefore be able to travel through the Hope Valley once the necessary loops at Hathersage, Dore and Chinley are built. Is there any further word on those developments?
The odd OHLE train at Sheffield might be an issue – one day.
Could better informed members comment on any potential pinch points between Sheffield and Drax.
Using the link from Northenden to Hazel Grove could avoid the messy all lines crossing at Heaton Norris (Northbound) and Edgeley Junction (Southbound) and the wait at Ashton Moss.

Thanks for that. I am most definitely getting my gauges mixed up. Where I got W8a from, God only knows. Of course the standard freightgauge is W6a, so W7 betters it, and all pennine routes can cope with the new wagons!
If I am interpreting the Sectional Appendix correctly, Edgeley Jn to Northenden Jn (the ex-LNWR branch that the biomass trains currently traverse) is only cleared to W6A, whereas the ex-CLC line west from Northenden is cleared to W7, as is the rest of the Mid-Cheshire line. Northenden to Hazel Grove is also W7 cleared. It seems W7 means clear to W6A Exception Gauge for 8ft containers, while W8 means clear to W6A Exception Gauge for 8ft 6in containers.
 

childwallblues

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Looking at RTT, at the moment they seem to be routed via Summit which is the slackest graded Pennine route.

Whether they can find paths for all 10 trains daily after January via that route I don't know. Maybe I'll be spotting one or two up my way (Hope valley). :)

I very much doubt that they could traverse the Hope Valley unless the line was resignalled between Hazel Grove and Dore. Then there would be problems finding paths between Sheffield Station and Hexthorpe Junction. Very much a no no I think.
 

furnessvale

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I very much doubt that they could traverse the Hope Valley unless the line was resignalled between Hazel Grove and Dore. Then there would be problems finding paths between Sheffield Station and Hexthorpe Junction. Very much a no no I think.

Without double checking, I would have thought the small hours would throw up a path or two, although the quarries along that route would be keen to keep paths open for their expansion.
 
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