Refused access to Birmingham Lounge with York - Winchester ticket

[bnm]

To be fair, that does fit in with the impression of XC as being overpriced, not very good and worth avoiding.

That's not my experience of them. I regularly bag some very good value XC 1st Advances, often on the day, or day before, travel. On board staff provide excellent customer service. These days I actively seek out the CrossCountry option when there are alternatives.

I also can't remember the last time I faced delays and disruptions which were CrossCountry's fault.

As for lounge access at New St, if I'm on an XC specific ticket or route that isn't served at all by Virgin then, if I want to bother with the frankly crap lounge at BHM, I'll buy a Virgin Only FDS to Brum Intl.

 

[yorksrob]

That's not my experience of them. I regularly bag some very good value XC 1st Advances, often on the day, or day before, travel. On board staff provide excellent customer service. These days I actively seek out the CrossCountry option when there are alternatives.

I also can't remember the last time I faced delays and disruptions which were CrossCountry's fault.

As for lounge access at New St, if I'm on an XC specific ticket or route that isn't served at all by Virgin then, if I want to bother with the frankly crap lounge at BHM, I'll buy a Virgin Only FDS to Brum Intl.

It's good that they are competitive somewhere, However in terms of price and (where HST's aren't available) comfort, I usually find it preferable to go via London.

 

[yorkie]

To be fair, that does fit in with the impression of XC as being overpriced, not very good and worth avoiding.

Yes I agree completely (and so do many others i know) but this thread has nothing to do with XC.

The passenger held a ticket valid on Virgin Trains, which should meet the criteria for lounge access.

 

[notakida]

That's nonsense; you have no way of knowing what train inter available ticket holders are going to catch (unless you ask them). Even so, you admit th ticket is valid on Virgin Trains qnd still claim admittance should be refused. You obviously work for Virgin Trains. Is this your personal opinion or the view of management at Virgin Trains?

Obviously its my personal view as is your view, not fact, just what you think should be correct .

Virgin lounge at Euston at busy times will turn away valid tickets which are cheap advances. This is not unusual behaviour. These are all valid tickets. As Virgin fund the lounges and no other Toc's contribute it's their gaff, their rules.

As it is XC choice to offer a first class ticket but not provide (or need to) a lounge waiting area for Ist class customers. If it was a right they would need to do this. But it isn't, its a perk of Virgin.

 

[yorkie]

1. Yes these are views, but what is Virgin's view? I urge the OP to write to Virgin about this to obtain them. If Virgin's view is that they will turn away passengers on interavailable tickets then let's get that information circulated so people can make an informed choice and know not to waste their time being turned away.

2. yes if its full they will turn people away for that reason, but that is not the reason given to the OP so is surely not relevant to this discussion?

3. The customer was not using an XC ticket. They were using an interavailable ticket valid on Virgin (plain and East Coat varieties), Northern, TPE, London Midland, XC, Chilterns, EMT and any other operator on a permitted route. I wouldn't expect any of these operators to treat a customer any different to a customer holding a ticket only valid on that partit TOC. Would you?

 

[35B]

Virgin state that "All you need to do to get into our First Class lounges is show a valid Virgin Trains ticket – either Virgin Business, First Anytime or Advance First".

If the OP was using a First Anytime ticket, refusing access was against the letter but not the spirit of this - the route was valid on VT but can't seriously be described as a Virgin route.

Unless it was full, I think the host was wrong to turn the OP away - the cost of a free drink and biscuit is far less than the impression of cheapness they've just got themselves.

 

[notakida]

1. Yes these are views, but what is Virgin's view? I urge the OP to write to Virgin about this to obtain them. If Virgin's view is that they will turn away passengers on interavailable tickets then let's get that information circulated so people can make an informed choice and know not to waste their time being turned away.

2. yes if its full they will turn people away for that reason, but that is not the reason given to the OP so is surely not relevant to this discussion?

3. The customer was not using an XC ticket. They were using an interavailable ticket valid on Virgin (plain and East Coat varieties), Northern, TPE, London Midland, XC, Chilterns, EMT and any other operator on a permitted route. I wouldn't expect any of these operators to treat a customer any different to a customer holding a ticket only valid on that partit TOC. Would you?

1,Would it not be better use of the OP's time to write to XC to ask why they don't offer a First Class waiting room like other TOCs? In fact reading the r OP he even made this point later on in the thread.

2.Of course its relevant, the Lounge can turn away who they wish, even valid tickets if they have good reason. It seems a good enough reason that if XC refuse to contribute to a lounge their customers who have no intention of using a Virgin service need to sit elsewhere.

3. We are talking about Ist Class tickets. And if the XC passenger wished to sit in Virgin Ist Class to Cov/Wolves/Bhi, of course they would be welcome. But the Lounge is perk paid only by Virgin. Not part of the service, a perk.

It's interesting as it seems no good deed goes unpunished. That Virgin are trying to offer more as part of their service and a willing to pay to do this that the onus isn't on the other Toc's who refuse to join in.

 

[bb21]

1,Would it not be better use of the OP's time to write to XC to ask why they don't offer a First Class waiting room like other TOCs? In fact reading the r OP he even made this point later on in the thread.

There is nothing stopping the OP doing both.

 

[yorksrob]

Yes I agree completely (and so do many others i know) but this thread has nothing to do with XC.

The passenger held a ticket valid on Virgin Trains, which should meet the criteria for lounge access.

Yes, that's true in terms of the individual case.

I suppose the make up of different TOC's does have a bearing on company policy though!

 

[DerekC]

Didn't appreciate that XC had refused to contribute to the First Class lounge at New Street. That makes a difference, of course. When I get a minute I will write to both Virgin and XC. What makes the XC situation worse is that the number of XC through South (Bournemouth/Southampton) to North East (Newcastle/York) services was cut drastically about 5 years ago at DfT's edict for service robustness reasons, so a change at New Street is now normal.

Talking about XC onboard service, that going north (Winchester to York, through) was excellent after Reading (a bit ropey before). Returning south (change at New Street) it was the complete opposite - inattentive, grumpy, had to ask for everything, only one item on the free menu was available .... Just shows it's down to the people on the day.

The other point I noted on the return journey is that the seat reservation system changes you at New Street, whereas in fact the Newcastle service was going through to Reading. Staying on it wouldn't have got us there any earlier, but the change is much quicker and more convenient at Reading, now the station reconstruction is complete. I don't think you can force the system to change you at your choice of intermediate point, however. Unless someone knows better....

 

[Bletchleyite]

To be fair, that does fit in with the impression of XC as being overpriced, not very good and worth avoiding.

It is a real pity DB didn't go for the ICE level of quality and service with XC, and stuck with being a slightly faster version of the megabus.

 

[DerekC]

However in terms of price and (where HST's aren't available) comfort, I usually find it preferable to go via London.

Hmm - well I spent an awful lot of time (and money) commuting to London and it's worth a few quid not to have to do the Waterloo to Kings Cross underground bit. Even though Bakerloo to Victoria change at Oxford Circus is very easy, you still have to walk miles and climb lots of stairs in the new labyrinth at Kings X. Even New Street is better than that, and Reading is just great! Allowing for the fact that SWT first class gives you zilch, Virgin service would have to be pretty wonderful and XC pretty lousy to make me go via London.

 

[yorksrob]

Hmm - well I spent an awful lot of time (and money) commuting to London and it's worth a few quid not to have to do the Waterloo to Kings Cross underground bit. Even though Bakerloo to Victoria change at Oxford Circus is very easy, you still have to walk miles and climb lots of stairs in the new labyrinth at Kings X. Even New Street is better than that, and Reading is just great! Allowing for the fact that SWT first class gives you zilch, Virgin service would have to be pretty wonderful and XC pretty lousy to make me go via London.

I usually stretch my legs and get some lunch in London.

Funnily enough, Waterloo - Exeter is a route I use for my 'cross country' travels and I found steerage class to be more comfortable than first on their 159's.

 

[Bletchleyite]

Virgin lounge at Euston at busy times will turn away valid tickets which are cheap advances. This is not unusual behaviour. These are all valid tickets. As Virgin fund the lounges and no other Toc's contribute it's their gaff, their rules.

I agree, but they should state clearly what is valid and what is not and have it on a sign. Many people find it cringeworthily embarrassing to be turned away, some even to the point that they won't use the service at all. That is no way to treat someone paying the railway dearly for First Class travel.

So if VT want to be open only for tickets to Rugby/Stafford and beyond, say, that's their right, *but they need to state it on a clear sign*. Airline lounges always have a clear sign showing who will and won't be admitted.

 

[gray1404]

Having looked at the information given on the Virgin Trains website, my own experiences of using the lounge and that of others I have spoken to, I think an error was made on the part of the person on the door of the lounge controling entry on the day in question. There is no doubt that the OP had a ticket that was valid Virgin in and out of Birmingham New Street so they should have been admitted. I believe what might have happened here is that the person on the door looked at the ticket and, because it was not to or from a destination served by Virgin (and was rather one of the destinations people might associate with Cross Country) told them that they could not come in. This is plain wrong and unacceptable. The customer had paid for a ticket and, in line with Virgin's current policy, was entitled to use the lounge. This matter is down to limited staff training and a lack of knowledge of ticketing. I fear that many of the staff on the door to the lounge may think that your ticket is only valid if its to/from a destination served by Virgin Trains directly from the station question (or at least operate on that unwritten basis).

What needs to happen now is that the OP writes to or emails Virgin Trains with a copy of their ticket. Virgin need to seriously respond to this matter in a detailed reply and advise what actions they have taken to make sure this does not happen again. I would also expect them to issue some compensation.

I trust that the OP will do this and report back here to let us know how they get on.

 

[WestCoast]

It is a real pity DB didn't go for the ICE level of quality and service with XC, and stuck with being a slightly faster version of the megabus.

I'd love to see it, but you can't polish a turd. I don't know exactly what was in Arriva's franchise specification (seems so long ago now :roll, but I'm pretty sure it didn't include an ICE level of service. How exactly would this be delivered on often overcrowded Voyagers with no buffets, stopping frequently to carry "regional" passengers and lack of that all important (for the UK) London terminus?

 

[45107]

What no one has cimmented on is

I didn't expect quite such a comprehensive selection of replies - thanks all!

To take some of the points raised:

1) The ticket was issued by XC but (as a full-fare) would have been valid on Virgin services on the "via Birmingham" route - so New Street to Coventry should have been OK, but I wasn't about to lie my way in since I didn't have any intention of travelling Virgin

.).

In the event of complaining to VTWC will you mention this minor detail ?

My understanding is that lounges are provided for Virgin passengers and you have stated you were not an intending passenger of them.

 

[Starmill]

Virgin lounge at Euston at busy times will turn away valid tickets which are cheap advances. This is not unusual behaviour. These are all valid tickets. As Virgin fund the lounges and no other Toc's contribute it's their gaff, their rules.

I'm tempted to believe you are making much of your post up, because, you don't seem to understand how Virgin's London pricing works. At 'busy times' Advance First Class tickets cost hundreds and hundreds of pounds. But there are some incredibly cheap £27 First Anytime Day Singles to Milton Keynes. Who gets let into the lounge, someone with a £200 Advance First to Crewe, or a £27 FDS to Milton Keynes?

 

[45107]

I'm tempted to believe you are making much of your post up, because, you don't seem to understand how Virgin's London pricing works. At 'busy times' Advance First Class tickets cost hundreds and hundreds of pounds. But there are some incredibly cheap £27 First Anytime Day Singles to Milton Keynes. Who gets let into the lounge, someone with a £200 Advance First to Crewe, or a £27 FDS to Milton Keynes?

And can you provide examples of these £200 Advance tickets to Crewe. Seem a tad expensive or maybe an exaggeration

 

[Darandio]

And can you provide examples of these £200 Advance tickets to Crewe. Seem a tad expensive or maybe an exaggeration

It's not that much of an exaggeration really, plenty available for £165.

 

[crehld]

And can you provide examples of these £200 Advance tickets to Crewe. Seem a tad expensive or maybe an exaggeration

Here you go! http://www.brfares.com/#faredetail?orig=EUS&dest=CRE&grpo=1072&rte=452&tkt=BFO

 

[Mag_seven]

My understanding is that lounges are provided for Virgin passengers and you have stated you were not an intending passenger of them.

They are provided for people with valid 1st class tickets, whether or not the ticket is actually used (or is intended to be used)on a Virgin Train or not.

 

[Seacook]

My understanding is that lounges are provided for Virgin passengers and you have stated you were not an intending passenger of them.

It may be pedantic but the VT website mentions only possession of a valid ticket. There is no compulsion to make use of it. If pressed I would say "I may be using it on a Virgin service" which is true enough since it depends on whichever train is most convenient when I decide to move.

I wonder if I was travelling from Wolverhampton to Coventry and stop off at Birmingham New Street, I could legitimately stay in the lounge for three hours - one after arrival and two before departure?

 

[Bletchleyite]

I'm tempted to believe you are making much of your post up, because, you don't seem to understand how Virgin's London pricing works. At 'busy times' Advance First Class tickets cost hundreds and hundreds of pounds. But there are some incredibly cheap £27 First Anytime Day Singles to Milton Keynes. Who gets let into the lounge, someone with a £200 Advance First to Crewe, or a £27 FDS to Milton Keynes?

I half remember that Milton Keynes passengers are not permitted access at all (in the same way as they get reduced complimentaries on board), though that may have changed now there exist VT only tickets.

 

[yorkie]

What is so concerning about it? Virgin lounge, Cross Country ticket, why would anyone expect to get access? Sorry, but Virgin provide the lounge for their passengers, not anyone elses...

It's an inter-available ticket, valid for travel on Virgin Trains. Do you deny this?

As Naja keeps (rightly) pointing out the lounge is a perk not an entitlement. To get that perk, you have to travel on Virgin. Seems pretty simple. Now if people want to complain about why Cross Country don't provide lounge facilities OR arrange with Virgin to accept Cross Country passengers, then I would happily agree.

Is this the official view of Virgin Trains? If so, let's hear it from them. If not, I take the view that a ticket valid on Virgin Trains services into and/or from Birmingham New Street should be accepted in the lounge at Birmingham New Street.
--- old post above --- --- new post below ---

My understanding is that lounges are provided for Virgin passengers and you have stated you were not an intending passenger of them.

He was turned away without such a conversation taking place. The person turning him away did not know whether or not he was going to be catching a Virgin Train - as was his entitlement - or not.

The ticket held was valid on Virgin Trains.

 

[anme]

What I do think they should do is make clear, on publicity and signage, which tickets they do accept, as it can be rather embarrassing to be turned away in front of others.

I think this is the fundamental point here.

 

[yorkie]

And can you provide examples of these £200 Advance tickets to Crewe. Seem a tad expensive or maybe an exaggeration

http://www.brfares.com/#faredetail?orig=EUS&dest=CRE&grpo=1072&rte=452&tkt=BFO

ADVANCE 1ST [VU]
From LONDON TERMINALS
To CREWE
Route VTWC &CONNECTNS
ADULT £211.00

--- old post above --- --- new post below ---

Virgin lounge at Euston at busy times will turn away valid tickets which are cheap advances. This is not unusual behaviour. These are all valid tickets. As Virgin fund the lounges and no other Toc's contribute it's their gaff, their rules.

Interesting. Can you supply more information on this?

It sounds like you are saying that when the lounge approaches capacity, there will be some criteria based on ticket price. Do you have any examples of what criteria are specified, and is it only Advance fares at the lower tiers which may see passengers turned away, or does that include walk-up fares at lower prices too?

Of course Virgin can specify criteria, such as minimum ticket price, if they wish, but I think it would be very helpful if this was made clear to people, to avoid embarrassment at being turned away and so people know where they stand.

When this occurs, if a suitable notice was displayed specifying the criteria, that would be very helpful.

 

[Bletchleyite]

http://www.brfares.com/#faredetail?orig=EUS&dest=CRE&grpo=1072&rte=452&tkt=BFO

Isn't that one of those business inclusive packages? Otherwise I don't know why that would ever be sold, as the First Anytime Single is a more reasonable (!) £194.

 

[Clip]

Is this the official view of Virgin Trains? If so, let's hear it from them. If not, I take the view that a ticket valid on Virgin Trains services into and/or from Birmingham New Street should be accepted in the lounge at Birmingham New Street.
.

Have you asked them? If not why not? get to it on twitter and FB and email.Find out and enlighten us all please.

 

[Starmill]

Have you asked them? If not why not? get to it on twitter and FB and email.Find out and enlighten us all please.

If you're so eager to know, why on earth haven't you done that? yorkie didn't claim that they were and probably doesn't even need to know personally. He merely refuted a very bold and definite claim to the contrary because that was made on the basis of absolutely no evidence whatsoever.

What makes you think you have the 'If not, why not?' right to demand that someone do anything anyway?