Refused access to Birmingham Lounge with York - Winchester ticket

[matt_world2004]

As I said above, it will be a portion of all of their revenue. This includes ticket sales, but it also includes their retail activities, investor money, cross-subsidy from other operations, payments from the DfT and payments from Network Rail.

So Taxpayers money and money from their customers? The argument that the first class lounge should have been refused by the OP is looking thinner and thinner.

 

[najaB]

So Taxpayers money and money from their customers? The argument that the first class lounge should have been refused by the OP is looking thinner and thinner.

I'm not bothered either way if the OP was allowed in or not, my point is that lounge access is a perk and Virgin, as the lounge operator, is allowed to grant or deny access on whatever grounds they want as long as they aren't in breach of the Equality Act.

 

[Bletchleyite]

I'm not bothered either way if the OP was allowed in or not, my point is that lounge access is a perk and Virgin, as the lounge operator, is allowed to grant or deny access on whatever grounds they want as long as they aren't in breach of the Equality Act.

I agree. However, it seems far from clear that this wasn't just staff getting it wrong. Virgin should have a policy on lounge access, and as a matter of good customer service (something they are supposed to be big on) should state it clearly to avoid possible embarrassment.

 

[Barn]

I'm not bothered either way if the OP was allowed in or not, my point is that lounge access is a perk and Virgin, as the lounge operator, is allowed to grant or deny access on whatever grounds they want as long as they aren't in breach of the Equality Act.

I sometimes wonder if people visit this disputes forum merely to play devil's advocate with OPs for the sake of arguing.

We understand that lounge access is a perk and not the core service for which a ticket is sold. Despite that, I'm pretty sure that you would feel aggrieved if you were turned away from a lounge without what you considered to be a good reason (it's pretty embarrassing, for one thing).

If you think a topic is petty and not worth discussing, there's an easy solution - switch to another thread!

 

[Seacook]

No it doesn't - the policy says "a valid Virgin Trains ticket" rather than "a ticket valid on Virgin Trains".

It does not say a "Virgin Trains Only" ticket either. How do you identify a VT ticket unless it has TOC restriction? If a ticket is valid for VT (not 'only VT') then it is a Virgin Trains ticket. It is irrelevant that it may also be a London Midland or Cross-Country ticket as well.

I would consider it an affront if I were refused entry with an ALR.

I have a First Class add-on for my n-Network season ticket. This allows access to the lounges at Wolverhampton, Birmingham New Street, Birmingham International and Coventry, but I am under no obligation to arrive or depart on a Virgin train (or any train at all come to that).

 

[matt_world2004]

The OP had a First Class ticket, they weren't allowed into the First Class lounge. In other news, people were burned to death today for being gay. Women were stoned to death for adultery while their husbands had three other wives and there are people being arrested simply because they are black. Get some perspective.

Which would be quite relevent if this forum was a forum to discuss social justice . It however is not, it is a forum to discuss "disputes and prosecutions" relating to the railways in which case it is hardly petty in the context of that.
--- old post above --- --- new post below ---
To the OP. I would contact virgins customer services you may recieve some rail travel vouchers, Particularly if you were embarassed by the incident.

 

[Mag_seven]

What was the situation re first class lounges in BR business sector days? I seem to recall a 1st class lounge at Euston - was that for "Intercity" 1st class ticket holders or could holders of 1st class tickets to "Network South East" destinations also get entry?

 

[Brucey]

I disagree that lounge access is a "perk".

It is advertised that First Class Lounges are available for holders of 1st class tickets. I make a purchase based on this information. Therefore my contract with the TOC includes this entitlement that was advertised to me at the point of purchase.

If denied, then either: a) the advertising is misleading, b) the TOC has breached the contract.

 

[yorksrob]

This is disgusting. If I'd forked out an anytime first class fare and been refused use of the lounge, I would be writing an angry complaint.

Virgin should be running the station services for all legitimate passengers that use the station, and if they can't be trusted to do that, they should have the responsibility given to someone else and be charged for it.

 

[CheesyChips]

Thankfully they don't have "dressed suitaly". Can you imagine the trouble if they did.

I always get a few glances when I walk in in a hoody and trainers I routinely travel Bham to Coventry so a FC ticket isn't overly expensive.

 

[Bletchleyite]

Virgin should be running the station services for all legitimate passengers that use the station, and if they can't be trusted to do that, they should have the responsibility given to someone else and be charged for it.

While it would be good if it was, this is not the case for First Class lounges. The question in this case arises from why, if the OP had a ticket valid for travel on Virgin Trains, he was not given access, and why, if VT have chosen to mean only a subset of those tickets, they are not specific as to which ones to avoid embarrassment of those who have paid dearly for First Class travel.

Having a sign saying something like "Open only to those who have tickets valid for travel to and beyond Rugby or Stafford by Virgin Trains" would not be rocket science and would make things clear.

 

[gray1404]

I always get a few glances when I walk in in a hoody and trainers I routinely travel Bham to Coventry so a FC ticket isn't overly expensive.

So I'm not the only one who dresses in such a way in the first class lounge then. Good! The behaviour on the part of a large portion of people who use first class lounges towards those they think don't fit the bill amuses me, but thats a discussion for another thread

In this case though I think given that if the OP was using either the via London or no via London fare, the ticket was valid on a VT out of BHM for part of their journey, because of this I would argue the ticket should have been valid in the lounge. These factors plus the high amount paid for the ticket makes me think they should write to VTWC telling them what happened and enclose their ticket and see what they get back.

 

[Minilad]

Maybe you didn't arrive awesome enough for them

 

[Aldaniti]

About a year ago I was denied access to the first class lounge at Euston because, apparently, I arrived 7 minutes and 11 seconds before I was 'entitled' to access, and I didn't have a cheapo ticket either. When I said nothing but just laughed, the woman behind the desk gave me an impression of a bulldog chewing a wasp. I haven't been back since....

 

[Bletchleyite]

About a year ago I was denied access to the first class lounge at Euston because, apparently, I arrived 7 minutes and 11 seconds before I was 'entitled' to access, and I didn't have a cheapo ticket either. When I said nothing but just laughed, the woman behind the desk gave me an impression of a bulldog chewing a wasp. I haven't been back since....

Didn't just wait in front of her for 7 minutes and 11 seconds then gain access, then?

 

[Aldaniti]

Didn't just wait in front of her for 7 minutes and 11 seconds then gain access, then?

Absolutely not, I wouldn't lower myself. I went to the Caffe Nero downstairs which was packed, but far more welcoming. And, for completely different reasons, I've since discovered the absolute joy of driving to Warwick Parkway for the Chiltern Silver service, so I now I can avoid the red peril altogether when heading to London!

 

[ian959]

For all those people who have responded, can you please explain how the OP could have a Virgin Trains West Coast ticket for the journey York to Winchester, going via Birmingham?

The ticket would be Cross Country ticket NOT a Virgin Trains West Coast ticket, so no admission to the lounge at Birmingham...

At least that is what NRE is saying...

 

[gray1404]

For all those people who have responded, can you please explain how the OP could have a Virgin Trains West Coast ticket for the journey York to Winchester, going via Birmingham?

The ticket would be Cross Country ticket NOT a Virgin Trains West Coast ticket, so no admission to the lounge at Birmingham...

At least that is what NRE is saying...

Hi Ian

If you have a look at the routing guide and bring up the maps associated with the routes that can be taken on that ticket, you will see that Virgin Trains West Coast operates services on those routes. Therefore the passenger is entitled to use VT service between such stations. The routing n the ticket would have been London or Not via London, so that basically means any permitted via/not via London. i.e. it can be used on any TOC on the permitted routes. i.e. the said ticket is not valid only on Cross Country in and out of Birmingham.

Have a look at the routing guide anyway and when you bring up the maps you'll see......

 

[ian959]

Hi Ian

If you have a look at the routing guide and bring up the maps associated with the routes that can be taken on that ticket, you will see that Virgin Trains West Coast operates services on those routes. Therefore the passenger is entitled to use VT service between such stations. The routing n the ticket would have been London or Not via London, so that basically means any permitted via/not via London. i.e. it can be used on any TOC on the permitted routes. i.e. the said ticket is not valid only on Cross Country in and out of Birmingham.

Have a look at the routing guide anyway and when you bring up the maps you'll see......

But since there is NO Virgin Trains West Coast services on that route via Birmingham, it is extremely likely that the ticket is a Cross Country ticket and therefore no access to the lounge. The lounge is only accessible to those holding a valid Virgin Trains West Coast ticket. It has nothing to do with what permitted routes are allowed under the routing guide. Talk about making mountains out of mole hills...

 

[bb21]

But since there is NO Virgin Trains West Coast services on that route via Birmingham, it is extremely likely that the ticket is a Cross Country ticket and therefore no access to the lounge. The lounge is only accessible to those holding a valid Virgin Trains West Coast ticket. It has nothing to do with what permitted routes are allowed under the routing guide. Talk about making mountains out of mole hills...

What is the definition of a Virgin Trains West Coast ticket and what is the definition of a Cross Country ticket?

 

[bnm]

But since there is NO Virgin Trains West Coast services on that route via Birmingham, it is extremely likely that the ticket is a Cross Country ticket and therefore no access to the lounge. The lounge is only accessible to those holding a valid Virgin Trains West Coast ticket. It has nothing to do with what permitted routes are allowed under the routing guide. Talk about making mountains out of mole hills...

Have you actually read the whole thread? The OP would be allowed to use a Virgin Trains service between Birmingham and Coventry.

 

[DerekC]

I didn't expect quite such a comprehensive selection of replies - thanks all!

To take some of the points raised:

1) The ticket was issued by XC but (as a full-fare) would have been valid on Virgin services on the "via Birmingham" route - so New Street to Coventry should have been OK, but I wasn't about to lie my way in since I didn't have any intention of travelling Virgin.

2) The guy on the gate of the Virgin lounge was perfectly polite (so was I) - he said something like "sorry, this ticket is via a Cross-Country route so you can't use the Virgin lounge". I didn't argue - would only have had time for a quick cup of coffee anyway.

My argument (making it up as I go along) is that New Street is a major (Network Rail run) interchange and that if the industry wants to encourage 1st class travel it should provide facilities for all passengers changing there. Maybe DfT should ensure that shared 1st class lounge facilities are provided at this sort of location and the TOCs required in their franchises to support it. ATOC could run the catering (maybe not ....).

 

[yorkie]

Have you contacted Virgin yet? If not please do as I expect they will give you a good response and ensure that the problems are not repeated. I'd be interested to hear how you get on.

 

[gray1404]

But since there is NO Virgin Trains West Coast services on that route via Birmingham, it is extremely likely that the ticket is a Cross Country ticket and therefore no access to the lounge. The lounge is only accessible to those holding a valid Virgin Trains West Coast ticket. It has nothing to do with what permitted routes are allowed under the routing guide. Talk about making mountains out of mole hills...

You are totally wrong! Permitted routes under the routing guide is so relevant.
--- old post above --- --- new post below ---

Have you actually read the whole thread? The OP would be allowed to use a Virgin Trains service between Birmingham and Coventry.

Correct!

 

[notakida]

A little background on this; Virgin did ask XC if they wished to share the FC lounge with them. XC refused. They did not wish to contribute to the costs.

The route to Winchester one train an hour does stop at Cov. The other does not stop within the route(s) that Virgin service.

If the ticket states XC only or any other TOC other than Virgin the ticket holder does not hold a valid ticket to gain access to the lounge.

The staff have a lot of abuse directed at them from disgruntled XC customers. Any complaints really should be directed at XC. Why charge such a high price for their first class service without providing the full service like Virgin does.

 

[yorkie]

If the ticket states XC only or any other TOC other than Virgin the ticket holder does not hold a valid ticket to gain access to the lounge.

The staff have a lot of abuse directed at them from disgruntled XC customers. Any complaints really should be directed at XC. Why charge such a high price for their first class service without providing the full service like Virgin does.

Not applicable in this case; the OP held an inter-available ticket, valid on Virgin Trains (between York & Birmingham it can be used on Virgin between Manchester & Birmingham and between Birmingham & Winchester it can be used on Virgin between Birmingham & Coventry).

It would seem odd to accept tickets for a shorter journey, e.g. Manchester to Coventry or Birmingham to Coventry, and not for a longer journey valid via those places!

 

[notakida]

There are very heap first class virgin only tickets to Birmingham International (a 10 min journey) Cov and Wolverhampton. Many customers take advantage of the low cost and buy these to gain access to the lounge.

However they are using Virgin Train services. That is important. The admittance on the web site is that the customer will be joining a virgin train . The customer would have to really use part of the journey on the Virgin Service and then rejoin their train for the rest of their journey. Which would be a real hassle to be honest as they could add hours to their journey.

The problem is New Street is an interchange but as I've said, XC were asked to be part of the FC lounge at New Street but refused.

Its interesting because London Midland customers don't kick up such a fuss over admittance, the high cost of the ticket for XC means the customers feels that they should be admitted. As I said, I don't see why Virgin who are trying to offer a service are being castigated because another TOC refuses to offer the same service and Virgin turn away customers who are clearly not using their service.

 

[Mag_seven]

The key question here is should non TOC specific, fully inter-available first class tickets enable access to a first class lounge, regardless of who actually operates that lounge. I would say yes.

 

[yorkie]

The customer would have to really use part of the journey on the Virgin Service and then rejoin their train for the rest of their journey. Which would be a real hassle to be honest as they could add hours to their journey.

That's nonsense; you have no way of knowing what train inter available ticket holders are going to catch (unless you ask them). Even so, you admit th ticket is valid on Virgin Trains qnd still claim admittance should be refused. You obviously work for Virgin Trains. Is this your personal opinion or the view of management at Virgin Trains?

 

[yorksrob]

A little background on this; Virgin did ask XC if they wished to share the FC lounge with them. XC refused. They did not wish to contribute to the costs.

The route to Winchester one train an hour does stop at Cov. The other does not stop within the route(s) that Virgin service.

If the ticket states XC only or any other TOC other than Virgin the ticket holder does not hold a valid ticket to gain access to the lounge.

The staff have a lot of abuse directed at them from disgruntled XC customers. Any complaints really should be directed at XC. Why charge such a high price for their first class service without providing the full service like Virgin does.

To be fair, that does fit in with the impression of XC as being overpriced, not very good and worth avoiding.