Future of Heathrow Express

[jon0844]

Today I came back from a short trip to Berlin, and literally missing my Heathrow Express service by seconds, I got chatting to the guy on the platform and got to talk a bit about Crossrail like where the trains would actually stop and so on.

With further chatting, he then said about nobody knowing what was going to happen to the Heathrow Express and that people were fearing for their jobs. Now I believe it's safe for a fair few years yet, but it seems that internally people are already looking elsewhere.

Is there really a company wide view that HEX will be axed, and everyone made redundant? If so, management perhaps need to give some reassurances?

He said people are leaving in large numbers, including three senior managers in just one week - many going to Crossrail. The reason is so people can get their 'feet under the table' but I didn't even know that they'd be taking that many people on this early (although I suppose it's not actually that far away now).

If too many people leave HEX then surely there will be a risk to services? Certainly the usual problem of the best people going, meaning quality falls and people begin to notice, which causes a reduction of users....

Does anyone on here work for HEX and can clarify things or go into more detail? I always thought HEX was the company a lot of people wanted to go and work for!

 

[SpacePhoenix]

If HEX does get axed who would likely get their paths out of Paddington (and to where)?

 

[swt_passenger]

HEx track access contract ends in 2023. They will then have to renegotiate, or give up the service, which may well have been rendered redundant by Crossrail anyway, depending on passenger's preferences for onward travel from Paddington.

One proposal is to transfer the paths to Crossrail, and they will then have 10 tph spread over both Heathrow terminal stations. The four paths would possibly become Crossrail skip stop 'semifasts', and/or fast line services in the off-peak, but run on the reliefs in the peaks making the fast line slots available for peak extra LDHS services.

A second possibility is to utilise the four paths for through services from Paddington via the future Western Heathrow access, (WRatH) to four destinations beyond Reading, such as Oxford, or Southampton via Basingstoke.

This is hardly news though, it is well documented and has been discussed in the forums on a number of occasions, sources are in the London and SE RUS and in the Western Route Study.

 

[Uzair]

Certainly hope that Heathrow Express stays. I really like having a premium service from central (sort of) London to the airport. That being said, its ridiculous ticket prices may make things unfeasible and I wouldn't be surprised seeing it replaced by Crossrail .

 

[wellwhatitis]

Personally I think it is an extortionate racket and I hope it becomes obsolete very quickly.

 

[klewer]

Personally I think it is an extortionate racket and I hope it becomes obsolete very quickly.

I disagree. As the main hub airport for London, Heathrow must have a premium, non-stop service straight into the capital. Business people do use it and will continue to do so thanks to its speed and regularity.

There's cheaper/slower services available for those who don't want to spend so much (personally I take the Connect unless I'm in a hurry) but the Heathrow Express does have a place on the railway.

 

[ivanhoe]

Heathrow Express was the result of a typical British compromise between the need to have a fast train out of the airport to somewhere in London. Paddington was probably the cheapest option and was funded on the basis that you could get a decent return by charging rip off prices to people who had been seated in an aluminium tube for anything between 4 and 24 hours. After sitting in cattle class and then undergoing interrogation by the UK Border, they will gladly in their thousands pay extra to get out of the place. Then they are deposited in Paddington! Hopefully Cross Rail will be able to put them out of their misery and actually deposit them in or near where they want to go. Not a slight on Heathrow Express Staff, but just a rant on this country's record on infrastructure decisions and investment post WW2.

 

[berneyarms]

Personally I think it is an extortionate racket and I hope it becomes obsolete very quickly.

No one is forcing you to use it - if you don't like it, use an alternative service.

I disagree. As the main hub airport for London, Heathrow must have a premium, non-stop service straight into the capital. Business people do use it and will continue to do so thanks to its speed and regularity.

There's cheaper/slower services available for those who don't want to spend so much (personally I take the Connect unless I'm in a hurry) but the Heathrow Express does have a place on the railway.

I would agree.

I do think that people overplay the impact that Crossrail will have in the case of Heathrow.

Having used the Heathrow Connect (with luggage) during the evening peak one day from Paddington to Heathrow, it proved to be a very uncomfortable journey due to the peak commuter loading and people trying to squeeze on and off the train, particularly west of Ealing Broadway.

Heathrow Express offers space for luggage and a non-stop service which will remain important for the airport.

Crossrail will undoubtedly take pressure off the Piccadilly line, and will take some of the loading off Heathrow Express, but I still think that there will be a sufficient market for the non-stop express which is designed for people carrying large luggage.

 

[wellwhatitis]

I disagree. As the main hub airport for London, Heathrow must have a premium, non-stop service straight into the capital. Business people do use it and will continue to do so thanks to its speed and regularity.

There's cheaper/slower services available for those who don't want to spend so much (personally I take the Connect unless I'm in a hurry) but the Heathrow Express does have a place on the railway.

I understand your point and yes there are alternatives and I am fortunate enough to know about them. Not so for the bewildered foreigners who arrive at the end of passport control to be greeted by several purple uniforms at the bottom of the escalators carrying Avantix machines. Nobody tells them that there is an alternative!

 

[hwl]

As SWT Passenger says the track access contract ends in 2023, however other contracts for example rolling stock maintenance end (2017?) and rolling stock leases that end earlier unless renewed so there are a number of points in time starting in 2017 where the cost of exit for HEx becomes much lower than currently.

HEx have also stated that they wanted to reduce headcount for while which suggests they know what Crossrail will do in the medium term. Given very few Londoners or visitors want to go to Paddington as their ultimate destination Crossrail with fewer changes and only a marginally slower journey if you include the change will probably win for most.

I can see some firms saying Crossrail is expensible but not HEx post 2018.
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Having used the Heathrow Connect (with luggage) during the evening peak one day from Paddington to Heathrow, it proved to be a very uncomfortable journey due to the peak commuter loading and people trying to squeeze on and off the train, particularly west of Ealing Broadway.

But the number of trains and their length will increase so they are less likely to be crowded.

Ealing Broadway 9tph to 14tph with the average length of train more than doubled so triple the current capacity with Crossrail should help with space.

 

[AM9]

As SWT Passenger says the track access contract ends in 2023, however other contracts for example rolling stock maintenance end (2017?) and rolling stock leases that end earlier unless renewed so there are a number of points in time starting in 2017 where the cost of exit for HEx becomes much lower than currently.

HEx have also stated that they wanted to reduce headcount for while which suggests they know what Crossrail will do in the medium term. Given very few Londoners or visitors want to go to Paddington as their ultimate destination Crossrail with fewer changes and only a marginally slower journey if you include the change will probably win for most.

I can see some firms saying Crossrail is expensible but not HEx post 2018.
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But the number of trains and their length will increase so they are less likely to be crowded.

Ealing Broadway 9tph to 14tph with the average length of train more than doubled so triple the current capacity with Crossrail should help with space.

Having used HEx many time on arrival at LHR, I can say that it was expensive but not for me as I wasn't paying. In getting to Thameslink, the time taken changing at Paddington was a drudge. In 4 years time it would be a no-brainer to get Crossrail to Farringdon. It would also help those leaving London via Liverpool St, Stratford, London Bridge, - even Waterloo. I think that HEx may fade away in the '20s when passenger receipts fall to Crossrail's benefit. If the decision to expand Gatwick is chosen, (which I think will be the case) then Heathrow will lose some business traffic anyway.
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I understand your point and yes there are alternatives and I am fortunate enough to know about them. Not so for the bewildered foreigners who arrive at the end of passport control to be greeted by several purple uniforms at the bottom of the escalators carrying Avantix machines. Nobody tells them that there is an alternative!

Don't underestimate the coverage of TfL, who already offer tourist travelcards in the home countries of visitors. They have signage at heathrow for buses, the Picadilly line, so expect Crossrail to have large indicators throughout the path of the arrivals traipse, maybe with their competitive prices!

 

[berneyarms]

Being honest about it, it will be a case of wait and see.

Human behaviour often defies expectations.

But the number of trains and their length will increase so they are less likely to be crowded.

Ealing Broadway 9tph to 14tph with the average length of train more than doubled so triple the current capacity with Crossrail should help with space.

Fair point - that will help. But there may well still be room for both products.

We'll have a fair idea in 4 years time!!

 

[AM9]

Having used the Heathrow Connect (with luggage) during the evening peak one day from Paddington to Heathrow, it proved to be a very uncomfortable journey due to the peak commuter loading and people trying to squeeze on and off the train, particularly west of Ealing Broadway.

Heathrow Express offers space for luggage and a non-stop service which will remain important for the airport.

Crossrail will undoubtedly take pressure off the Piccadilly line, and will take some of the loading off Heathrow Express, but I still think that there will be a sufficient market for the non-stop express which is designed for people carrying large luggage.

Crossrail trains will start from Heathrow so they will be empty. It will be up to passengers boarding between Hayes and Ealing Broadway whether they squeeze onto the (first) ex Heathrow crossrail train or wait for the next ex Maidenhead/Reading one. Similarly travelling to Heathrow, passengers will board at various stations in central London, so the luggage issue will be more diffuse.
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.... but run on the reliefs in the peaks making the fast line slots available for peak extra LDHS services. ...

What are 'LDHS services'?

 

[berneyarms]

Crossrail trains will start from Heathrow so they will be empty. It will be up to passengers boarding between Hayes and Ealing Broadway whether they squeeze onto the (first) ex Heathrow crossrail train or wait for the next ex Maidenhead/Reading one. Similarly travelling to Heathrow, passengers will board at various stations in central London, so the luggage issue will be more diffuse.

I was careful to state that my journey was from Paddington outbound.

But again I'd avoid the Connect inbound if I landed during the morning peak rail period for the same reason.

What are the luggage facilities planned to be like on the Crossrail trains, or do we know this level of design detail yet?

 

[swt_passenger]

Crossrail trains will start from Heathrow so they will be empty. It will be up to passengers boarding between Hayes and Ealing Broadway whether they squeeze onto the (first) ex Heathrow crossrail train or wait for the next ex Maidenhead/Reading one. Similarly travelling to Heathrow, passengers will board at various stations in central London, so the luggage issue will be more diffuse.
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What are 'LDHS services'?

Long distance high speed. 125 mph intercity in old money...

 

[lincolnshire]

I understand your point and yes there are alternatives and I am fortunate enough to know about them. Not so for the bewildered foreigners who arrive at the end of passport control to be greeted by several purple uniforms at the bottom of the escalators carrying Avantix machines. Nobody tells them that there is an alternative!

I have to agree with the above, if you don,t know you think this is the only way to get into central London and you think I might as well get a ticket here right now from these nice men with there ticket machines and no queue and that will save me some time. I always use the tube as going to Kings Cross its the easiest way and just about the quickest and cheapest way to get there, going by them would only get me to Paddington then luggage off the train then down on to the Underground to get to Kings Cross, all in all i will be sticking with the tube and not an overpriced Heathrow Express.

 

[glbotu]

What are 'LDHS services'?

"Long Distance High Speed". When DfT do Route Utilisation Strategies, that's how they define them.

The main issue is how will the services be differentiated at Heathrow Central? I mean, the trains will obviously be rather different, but I can imagine lots of tourists getting on a Heathrow Express train instead of a Crossrail train and Vice Versa (unless you plan on having announcements in all 100 or so languages arriving at Heathrow). I appreciate there might be scope for a more sensibly priced Heathrow Express (run by the Greater Western franchisee), which could just operate on the Oyster system (depending on your touch-out location at Paddington, charges you a different fare - in line with National Rail fares, rather than premium-rate). I can't see Heathrow Express persisting as it does though.

 

[AM9]

I have to agree with the above, if you don,t know you think this is the only way to get into central London and you think I might as well get a ticket here right now from these nice men with there ticket machines and no queue and that will save me some time. I always use the tube as going to Kings Cross its the easiest way and just about the quickest and cheapest way to get there, going by them would only get me to Paddington then luggage off the train then down on to the Underground to get to Kings Cross, all in all i will be sticking with the tube and not an overpriced Heathrow Express.

Or you could go to Farringdon on Crossrail, then double back either on Thameslink to St Pancras, or the SSL to Kings Cross. That would certainly be quicker and presumably, as both the Met/Circle/H&C and Thameslink services will be high frequency there would be minimum waiting at Farringdon, and the Crossrail interchange should be pretty easy.
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I was careful to state that my journey was from Paddington outbound.

But again I'd avoid the Connect inbound if I landed during the morning peak rail period for the same reason.

OK, I thought that your mention of travel from Paddington was a 'frinstance'. As has been said, the trains will be longer and more frequent so finding seats and space in a starter shouldn't be an issue even at 08:00 on a weekday morning. The decision to board the Crossrail train, (if there is still the choice of HEx) will have already been taken. Regular commuters from Hayes etc. inbound will know their options and also know which train to take, e.g. full of people standing or with both people and cases. It is also likely that the passengers with cases will all congregate nearest the Heathrow platform entrance, so experience will tell the regulars that other coaches have more room.

What are the luggage facilities planned to be like on the Crossrail trains, or do we know this level of design detail yet?

I imagine that they will be similar to the 700s, i.e. high capacity with plenty of standing room, but no designated luggage space. For passengers boarding an empty train at Heathrow some of that standing space could safely be used for their luggage without blocking doors. The size of luggage flown into Heathrow is most probably going to be less than is allowed in the NRCoCs, (even that for the USA).
If the service becomes the majority carrier for airline passengers, it might be practical that some trains are modified to have more luggage space, with signage and run faster, only stopping at OOC and Ealing Broadway, providing there isn't any contractual prohibition to that in any surviving HEx arrangement. (In so many instances, explicit commercial restrictions disadvantage everybody else!)

 

[jon0844]

I have to agree with the above, if you don,t know you think this is the only way to get into central London and you think I might as well get a ticket here right now from these nice men with there ticket machines and no queue and that will save me some time. I always use the tube as going to Kings Cross its the easiest way and just about the quickest and cheapest way to get there, going by them would only get me to Paddington then luggage off the train then down on to the Underground to get to Kings Cross, all in all i will be sticking with the tube and not an overpriced Heathrow Express.

It is overpriced, for sure, but it is a very pleasant experience and now with the free Wi-Fi (and I got over 10Mbps in both directions on the train yesterday, so that's pretty good for tourists who can use that 15 minutes to get a good Internet experience). The refurb of the trains also makes them look and feel luxurious, although I can't imagine why you'd pay for first class given how nice standard is.

I bet plenty of people do though, especially those on expenses. And for what, 1+1 seating and loads of empty space, plus a free paper?

I can see why they set up all over to sell tickets, and actively try and upsell first class (and I saw first hand people saying 'yeah, why not') but I was a bit concerned about the desk immediately outside the HEX entrance in the corridor (T2/3) that I assumed was for giving information, but actually had a lady selling tickets and trying to upsell. The problem is the queue backed up into the corridor and was hindering movement of people.

What was particularly annoying is that if people skipped her, there are of course LOADS of ticket machines down the ramp. Machines that will also sell Heathrow Connect tickets! (Something the lady wasn't going to be mentioning).

I do think people expect some sort of airport express train though. But if it's all up in the air (sic) and staff are all jumping ship, then there's going to be no HEX service left to run anyway.

 

[wellwhatitis]

I can see why they set up all over to sell tickets, and actively try and upsell first class (and I saw first hand people saying 'yeah, why not') but I was a bit concerned about the desk immediately outside the HEX entrance in the corridor (T2/3) that I assumed was for giving information, but actually had a lady selling tickets and trying to upsell. The problem is the queue backed up into the corridor and was hindering movement of people.

What was particularly annoying is that if people skipped her, there are of course LOADS of ticket machines down the ramp. Machines that will also sell Heathrow Connect tickets! (Something the lady wasn't going to be mentioning).

That is exactly my point. In my opinion these desks are a very cynical ploy to honeytrap the unsuspecting and you're right they do cause bottlenecks into the bargain.

I'm glad it's not just me.

 

[bramling]

Today I came back from a short trip to Berlin, and literally missing my Heathrow Express service by seconds, I got chatting to the guy on the platform and got to talk a bit about Crossrail like where the trains would actually stop and so on.

With further chatting, he then said about nobody knowing what was going to happen to the Heathrow Express and that people were fearing for their jobs. Now I believe it's safe for a fair few years yet, but it seems that internally people are already looking elsewhere.

Is there really a company wide view that HEX will be axed, and everyone made redundant? If so, management perhaps need to give some reassurances?

He said people are leaving in large numbers, including three senior managers in just one week - many going to Crossrail. The reason is so people can get their 'feet under the table' but I didn't even know that they'd be taking that many people on this early (although I suppose it's not actually that far away now).

If too many people leave HEX then surely there will be a risk to services? Certainly the usual problem of the best people going, meaning quality falls and people begin to notice, which causes a reduction of users....

Does anyone on here work for HEX and can clarify things or go into more detail? I always thought HEX was the company a lot of people wanted to go and work for!

There will always be a need for some staff to operate and manage the privately owned section of railway.

In the future, HEx's future *should* be determined by a combination of demand versus the impact to the rest of the railway of their paths out of Paddington.

If HEx can consistently fill long trains with the express service then their use of scarce paths, as well as the disruption they cause, is justified.

Being cynical, the worst outcome is if the service is maintained as a lightly used revenue generator for Heathrow Airport Limited, which is I suspect what could end up happening.

The Stansted Express is a good example of poor utilisation of railway capacity. Fitting these trains onto a congested railway has had negative effects further than one might think - lack of paths into Liverpool Street has in turn led to most of the Cambridge-London market being transferred to King's Cross, with consequential capacity issues on that route. At least HEx doesn't share the same tracks as stopping services.

 

[Bletchleyite]

GatEx still exists despite cheaper (non-)competition. So I see no reason HEx shouldn't survive unless the paths are required for other things.

 

[jon0844]

The new National Rail machines are also not exactly well marked or promoted, and that also means you can now buy through tickets, pay less money (for example if you have a railcard) and buy your tickets in advance so you have more time to compare options. [Edit: I forgot to say for anyone who might get excited, that these ONLY issue tickets booked online for collection so you still can't buy tickets at the airport for anything but HEX and HC].

IMO there's no need to attempt to trick anyone. Even if all the options were explained, HEX would win in many cases. If you're tired and want to get home, or you're running late then it wins every time. If it didn't exist, a lot of people would find it a lot more frustrating to get to the airport by having to allow more time.

Heathrow can already be slow enough as it is. Not so much clearing security, but the waiting time for take offs and landing. It all makes the door to door time when using Heathrow is often quite poor.

 

[DynamicSpirit]

One other point that could affect things is that somewhere around 2026-ish, Old Oak Common is likely to open and become a very important interchange point for people going to Heathrow (although perhaps less so for foreigners coming in - as they are more likely to be heading for London). It's hard to tell what impact that would have, but I would imagine it would become harder to justify providing paths for Heathrow trains that don't stop there. So possibly if HEX survives, it may no longer be able to be a non-stop service. I'm not sure if that would dent its appeal somewhat.

On the other hand, I can also imagine there would be quite a strong market for people who've just got the HS2 down from Manchester or Glasgow wanting a fast train at OOC to Heathrow - could that be the thing that saves HEX?

 

[Clip]

There are still going to be people who want a non stop train - or at least one that gets there quicker than an all stations crossrail effort so that needs to be provided for or else these people will just use Addison Lee or equivalent.

 

[anme]

That is exactly my point. In my opinion these desks are a very cynical ploy to honeytrap the unsuspecting and you're right they do cause bottlenecks into the bargain.

I'm glad it's not just me.

It's a rather grubby way to say "welcome to Britain", although entirely in keeping with what a visitor will experience for the rest of their trip.

The future of the HEx should be determined by whether it's the best use of capacity on a very busy section of the railway. Personally I'm not prepared to use a service that charges thirty euros to get from Heathrow to Paddington.

 

[berneyarms]

It's a rather grubby way to say "welcome to Britain", although entirely in keeping with what a visitor will experience for the rest of their trip.

The future of the HEx should be determined by whether it's the best use of capacity on a very busy section of the railway. Personally I'm not prepared to use a service that charges thirty euros to get from Heathrow to Paddington.

Well book online in advance - they have deals for £6.99! Again, no one is forced to use it, and most people do some research on travel options to/from an airport before they travel.

There are clearly plenty of people who are prepared to pay for a fast service with plenty of space, and from my experience they certainly are not all business travellers. I just don't see that changing, particularly at peak times.
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OK, I thought that your mention of travel from Paddington was a 'frinstance'. As has been said, the trains will be longer and more frequent so finding seats and space in a starter shouldn't be an issue even at 08:00 on a weekday morning. The decision to board the Crossrail train, (if there is still the choice of HEx) will have already been taken. Regular commuters from Hayes etc. inbound will know their options and also know which train to take, e.g. full of people standing or with both people and cases. It is also likely that the passengers with cases will all congregate nearest the Heathrow platform entrance, so experience will tell the regulars that other coaches have more room.

I imagine that they will be similar to the 700s, i.e. high capacity with plenty of standing room, but no designated luggage space. For passengers boarding an empty train at Heathrow some of that standing space could safely be used for their luggage without blocking doors. The size of luggage flown into Heathrow is most probably going to be less than is allowed in the NRCoCs, (even that for the USA).
If the service becomes the majority carrier for airline passengers, it might be practical that some trains are modified to have more luggage space, with signage and run faster, only stopping at OOC and Ealing Broadway, providing there isn't any contractual prohibition to that in any surviving HEx arrangement. (In so many instances, explicit commercial restrictions disadvantage everybody else!)

No it wasn't a "frinstance".

I don't relish travelling on a train that is/will become jammed with commuters of I have, for example, a suitcase and laptop bag with me. It becomes utterly uncomfortable, particularly if there is nowhere to store it.

The HEx takes that issue away, with a fast comfortable non-stop option to a location on the edge of central London, and lots of racking.

 

[Antman]

It's a rather grubby way to say "welcome to Britain", although entirely in keeping with what a visitor will experience for the rest of their trip.

The future of the HEx should be determined by whether it's the best use of capacity on a very busy section of the railway. Personally I'm not prepared to use a service that charges thirty euros to get from Heathrow to Paddington.

Me neither, never used it on principle!

I heard a story about some Americans arriving at their hotel in Russell Square moaning about rip off Britain having got the HEX to Paddington and a taxi from there, obviously they didn't know that they could have got the Piccadilly Line direct for a fraction of the price.

If there is a demand for a premium express then fair enough just as long as nobody is being duped into using it.

 

[Bletchleyite]

It's perfectly usual the world over for a premium airport service to be advertised, but for a cheaper slower option to remain in the background. It's hardly unique to London.

 

[matt_world2004]

Hex actually aint even that much quicker for journeys into most of central London granted the speed savings are significant for the Paddington/Edgware road /baker street locations but once you get to Charing cross and locations further east it is actually quicker to get a tube.

Also a 140 bus is quicker for journeys to Hayes and Harlington for most of the day than the Heathrow connect.