Sunderland and Stirling Tickets now available from VTEC

[gavin]

Virgin Trains East Coast have made tickets available for booking for the new service to Sunderland which starts on Monday 14th December

Customers in Sunderland will see a new 05.40 departure, arriving in London King’s Cross at 09.08. With the return service departing London at 20.00, both services will be faster than existing direct trains to Sunderland, by seven minutes southbound and 11 minutes northbound.

The additional weekday Stirling service will launch on Monday 14 December with a 05.26 weekday departure, arriving in London King’s Cross at 10.52. This is 46 minutes faster than the existing 05.30 departure, which requires a change of train and arrives in London at 11.42.

https://www.virgintrainseastcoast.c...to-launch-new-service-from-sunderland-1224663

 

[Starmill]

'existing direct trains to Sunderland' OOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOH!

 

[ainsworth74]

'existing direct trains to Sunderland' OOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOH!

Yeah, I think we all knew that they were targeting Grand Central with this move but they never seemed to really acknowledge it. Now, however, I would say that they just pretty much abandoned any pretence of this being anything other than an attack on GCs territory!

 

[34D]

Does it fail the 'not primarily abstractive' test though?

 

[47271]

As a regular user of this route, I've still no idea who they think are going to use the Sunderland service. I often travel down in the morning but at 0540, I don't think so? Including Stirling, generally VTEC seem to think that their customers are ready to flatter their schedule by getting up at 430am. I don't know about you, but that isn't how I travel by train...

I might use the 2000 return but the only reason is to avoid the underfloor din of the GC Class 180 and to leave King's Cross that little bit later, but traipsing round Newcastle strikes me as something unnatural best avoided. As an attack on GC it seems to me no more than symbolic.

 

[Flying Snail]

As a regular user of this route, I've still no idea who they think are going to use the Sunderland service. I often travel down in the morning but at 0540, I don't think so? Including Stirling, generally VTEC seem to think that their customers are ready to flatter their schedule by getting up at 430am. I don't know about you, but that isn't how I travel by train...

Are you likely to be purchasing Anytime First fares? It is those people who are generally found to a higher % on early trains arriving into London before 10am.

Half of a 1st class carriage of those people are worth as much to a TOC as half a trainload of people on cheap advance fares.

The business travel market is a huge earner on the routes that capture enough of it, how much Sunderland can generate with a 3 1/2 hour journey time is another question.

I suppose as it is only an extension of a Newcastle service it only has to cover the additional costs of leaving Heaton 45mns earlier to shuttle to Sunderland and back.

Also I am sure the opportunity to re-abstract some revenue from GC is part of the attraction to VTEC.

 

[47271]

Are you likely to be purchasing Anytime First fares? It is those people who are generally found to a higher % on early trains arriving into London before 10am.

Half of a 1st class carriage of those people are worth as much to a TOC as half a trainload of people on cheap advance fares.

The business travel market is a huge earner on the routes that capture enough of it, how much Sunderland can generate with a 3 1/2 hour journey time is another question.

I suppose as it is only an extension of a Newcastle service it only has to cover the additional costs of leaving Heaton 45mns earlier to shuttle to Sunderland and back.

Also I am sure the opportunity to re-abstract some revenue from GC is part of the attraction to VTEC.

I do use Anytimes occasionally but avoid them if I can plan better than that.

Anyway, I agree with all of what you're saying here. The bit that I missed earlier was how sceptical I am of a significant business market from Sunderland in the first place. Not only the three and a half hour bit, also GC's services really are pretty quiet north of York, and especially north of Northallerton.

 

[Stats]

As a regular user of this route, I've still no idea who they think are going to use the Sunderland service.

Neither do ORR's consultants who think 6,000 passenger journeys a year will be made using it. Which by my calculations, allowing for Christmas and Easter suspensions, is about 12 people on each service.

 

[SaveECRewards]

I generally fail to see the point of this service too. It's easy enough to reach Newcastle by Northern Rail or the Metro and Sunderland station (not the city) is a terrible place to wait I'd rather jump on the first train out of there.

I've used Grand Central a few times for Sunday journeys back to London because on a weekend because I prefer the trip to VTEC on a weekend (as VTEC first class offers neither hot food or alcohol on a weekend and on Grand Central I can order a bacon baguette and a couple of beers with the money I saved) however after recently suffering a delay on GC (not under their control) I've decided in future it's much more pleasant to wait in NCL with a lounge and numerous other facilities than it is to go to Sunderland, there's just no contingency if things go wrong.

With one service a day VTEC will have no incentive to want to improve the station so it doesn't seem that appealing to me.

I'm sure most people who travel Grand Central will get GC Only tickets. This may mean VTEC get a slightly higher share of Sunderland - London revenue

 

[najaB]

Does it fail the 'not primarily abstractive' test though?

Now there's an interesting question - does a franchised operator have to pass the NPA test against an open-access operator?

 

[ainsworth74]

I believe the NPA is to protect the funds available for the Secretary of State or, in other words, the amount of subsidy/premium the franchises receive/generate. As OAOs live or die on their own feet without the direct support of the Government I do not think they are granted the same protections.

 

[yorkie]

No. 34D was joking.

Back into the subject of fares, are they the same price as from Newcastle?

The 20:00 used to be the meal train but sadly isn't any longer, I know several people who wish they would change it back. It offers a good last direct train to Sunderland and APs on it are cheap when bought far enough in advance

 

[najaB]

I believe the NPA is to protect the funds available for the Secretary of State or, in other words, the amount of subsidy/premium the franchises receive/generate. As OAOs live or die on their own feet without the direct support of the Government I do not think they are granted the same protections.

I didn't think they would - that's why the question caught my attention.

 

[Starmill]

It doesn't matter if nobody uses these services. That's not why they've done it.

They're doing it because:
a) they will get their share of Newcastle - Sunderland revenue and perhaps importantly their share of Nexus product revenue.
b) they get to make themselves look good by shouting about (correct me if I am wrong here) the first thing the new franchisee has done that has been a passenger improvement (N.B vinyl wraps =/= passenger improvement) despite the many negatives they've introduced.

 

[SaveECRewards]

b) they get to make themselves look good by shouting about (correct me if I am wrong here) the first thing the new franchisee has done that has been a passenger improvement (N.B vinyl wraps =/= passenger improvement) despite the many negatives they've introduced.

Have they really introduced many negative? The only one I can think of (and indeed it's a big one for me) is Nectar.

They seemed to have learned somewhat from that and all changes seem to be slow so they can have time to see what people value and what they don't care about.

They do seem to like making a big deal about small things such as the introduction of prosecco on board but I've not seen much in the way of negatives. Service on board is still the same as it has been for the past few years.

One recent change is they've made the Twitter team 24/7 which will help during disruptions. Getting the customers involved in the wine tasting to select the on board wines is a nice touch.

My main aim now is they build on what they have and don't start cutting back like NXEC did. We'll see what happens but I've not found anything big (except rewards) to complain about.

 

[455driver]

Does it fail the 'not primarily abstractive' test though?

That probably only applies if the 'little' company is taking on the 'big' company, the DaFT have to protect their premium payments!

 

[Darandio]

That probably only applies if the 'little' company is taking on the 'big' company, the DaFT have to protect their premium payments!

Although 'little' hardly applies these days when the company in question is German state owned!

It's now fair game as far as I am concerned.

 

[Stats]

Now there's an interesting question - does a franchised operator have to pass the NPA test against an open-access operator?

Yes, it does. The ORR have a duty that any new franchised service must not force an existing open access operator to withdraw their services and reduce competition.

 

[Coolzac]

Forgive my ignorance but will this VTEC service go the same route as the Grand Central trains, or north to Newcastle and then via the ECML as usual?

 

[Darandio]

Forgive my ignorance but will this VTEC service go the same route as the Grand Central trains, or north to Newcastle and then via the ECML as usual?

ECML

http://www.realtimetrains.co.uk/train/Y80467/2015/12/14/advanced

 

[Tommy1581]

Will the Sunderland to Newcastle stretch of this service have the same ticket acceptance as Northern Rail? eg. Explorers, Network One, A+B+C Metro tickets etc.

 

[47271]

To give VTEC their due, I might give it a go on the 2000 ex King's Cross next time - from December - I need to get to Sunderland from London. The First Advance price is competitive within £4 or so. If I get fed for that - no more than a biscuit on GC - then that's a saving.

No chance of seeing me on Sunderland station at 530am though.

 

[Starmill]

Have they really introduced many negative? The only one I can think of (and indeed it's a big one for me) is Nectar.

They seemed to have learned somewhat from that and all changes seem to be slow so they can have time to see what people value and what they don't care about.

They do seem to like making a big deal about small things such as the introduction of prosecco on board but I've not seen much in the way of negatives. Service on board is still the same as it has been for the past few years.

One recent change is they've made the Twitter team 24/7 which will help during disruptions. Getting the customers involved in the wine tasting to select the on board wines is a nice touch.

My main aim now is they build on what they have and don't start cutting back like NXEC did. We'll see what happens but I've not found anything big (except rewards) to complain about.

In more than 6 months they have scrapped rewards, jacked up Advance prices significantly and much increased the use of unrefurbished HSTs - one of which doesn't even have sockets.

What have they done on the plus? Made a sickeningly huge fuss about how amazing they are, while doing nothing but add some really expensive wine to the menu!

 

[sheff1]

One recent change is they've made the Twitter team 24/7 which will help during disruptions.

You think so ?

When I tweeted them about ticket acceptance during recent disruption they 100% failed to understand my question. I tried again in words of one syllable and they didn't reply at all.

 

[najaB]

...and much increased the use of unrefurbished HSTs - one of which doesn't even have sockets.

Personally I would prefer to travel in a train with no sockets rather than no have train at all. But to each their own.

 

[IanXC]

Will the Sunderland to Newcastle stretch of this service have the same ticket acceptance as Northern Rail? eg. Explorers, Network One, A+B+C Metro tickets etc.

Seems not, well, yet at least...

Transport bosses have been urged to allow commuters to use Metro passes and travelcards on Sunderland’s new rail link with Tyneside.

A Nexus spokesman said talks on a deal were under way: “We are in discussions with Virgin Trains East Coast to see if Metro tickets can be accepted on their new services between Newcastle and Sunderland which start in December.

http://www.sunderlandecho.com/news/...l-be-just-the-ticket-for-passengers-1-7538469

 

[greatkingrat]

Cue someone pointing out that unless they say "Not Virgin" on the ticket, they are valid anyway.

 

[Starmill]

I imagine it's a revenue distribution point that needs to be worked out, and that the tickets will be accepted no problems - there isn't a reason why they wouldn't be.

Certianly on the basis that T&W Metro have a long-standing agreement that tickets issued by TOCs for journeys via Newcastle to Sunderland or Heworth (and vice versa) are valid on the Metro. They aren't going to go back on their side of that agreement methinks.

Personally I would prefer to travel in a train with no sockets rather than no have train at all. But to each their own.

Listen very carefully, for I shall reply to your impudence but once more; the choice that's relevant is the one between a train which has been 'painted red' and lacks sockets and which retains an older livery but has sockets. I think I know what most people would prefer, but each to their own.

 

[najaB]

Listen very carefully, for I shall reply to your impudence but once more; the choice that's relevant is the one between a train which has been 'painted red' and lacks sockets and which retains an older livery but has sockets. I think I know what most people would prefer, but each to their own.

The EC sets are going to go in for painting and cleaning so the options are (a) a substitute train with no sockets; or (b) no train. Any clearer?

 

[ainsworth74]

The EC sets are going to go in for painting and cleaning so the options are (a) a substitute train with no sockets; or (b) no train. Any clearer?

They don't need painting as that was done by East Coast instead they are getting vinyl's (or even if it is paint it is not necessary to paint them as it has just been done). As far as I can tell the re-liveried sets are no cleaner (or dirtier) than any other set or before they were 'cleaned'.