Can you excess a ticket bought with a railcard?

[Hellfire]

I bought an advance first class return on VT from Preston to Euston, travelling out on 4th Nov and back on the 5th. I used my Senior Railcard.

A change of plan means I cannot make the journey and, as it's an Advance, I cannot get a refund. I understand and accept that.

However, could someone else, who doesn't have a Senior Railcard, utilise the ticket and pay an excess to bring the far back to the full Advance level?

 

[najaB]

owever, could someone else, who doesn't have a Senior Railcard, utilise the ticket and pay an excess to bring the far back to the full Advance level?

Technically you cannot excess away a Railcard discount. You may find that some ticket office staff are able/willing to do so.

 

[greatkingrat]

Officially it is non-transferable so even someone with a Senior Railcard wouldn't be able to use the ticket.

 

[najaB]

Officially it is non-transferable so even someone with a Senior Railcard wouldn't be able to use the ticket.

You are allowed to buy a ticket for someone else - not sure if that would apply if you are excessing a ticket for someone else to use.

 

[Hellfire]

Officially it is non-transferable so even someone with a Senior Railcard wouldn't be able to use the ticket.

Interesting. How would anyone checking the ticket know that?

 

[Wallsendmag]

Technically you cannot excess away a Railcard discount. You may find that some ticket office staff are able/willing to do so.

They are excesses all the time when people forget their railcards.

 

[mikeg]

They are excesses all the time when people forget their railcards.

It's actually against industry policy to do this but some companies do this on a discretionary basis. Afaik not all systems can do this either.

 

[Wallsendmag]

Some companies so it as sop

 

[najaB]

They are excesses all the time when people forget their railcards.

The Railcard T&Cs say that if you don't have the railcard you are supposed to be treated as having no ticket at all.

5. You must carry your Railcard with you on your journey and when asked by rail staff, you must show a valid ticket and valid Railcard. If you fail to do so, you will be required to pay the full price Standard or First Class Single fare as appropriate for your journey as if no ticket was purchased before starting the journey and in some cases a Penalty Fare.

There's no right to an excess in the T&Cs or in the NRCoC.

 

[yorkie]

However, could someone else, who doesn't have a Senior Railcard, utilise the ticket and pay an excess to bring the far back to the full Advance level?

The ticket is not transferable so that wouldn't be legitimate.

However..
--- old post above --- --- new post below ---

Technically you cannot excess away a Railcard discount. You may find that some ticket office staff are able/willing to do so.

...can people please stop saying this? It is the policy of some Train Companies that you cannot excess away a Railcard discount, but it is the policy of more sensible Train Companies that it can be done.

Interesting. How would anyone checking the ticket know that?

They wouldn't.
--- old post above --- --- new post below ---

The Railcard T&Cs say that if you don't have the railcard you are supposed to be treated as having no ticket at all.

Yes, if a passenger simply boarded the train (not what this topic is about!) then they can, as you say, be treated as having no ticket at all, however in practice an excess will be charged if travelling on certain Train Companies and the passenger is treated as making mistake. I don't doubt this happens on Wallsendmag's route.

There's no right to an excess in the T&Cs or in the NRCoC.

There's no right to a single to return excess in the T&Cs or in the NRCoC, but that doesn't mean it can't be done (indeed New Cross Gate ticket office told me that is the only type of excess they can do, and those to which there is an entitlement cannot be done!)

 

[najaB]

...can people please stop saying this? It is the policy of some Train Companies that you cannot excess away a Railcard discount, but it is the policy of more sensible Train Companies that it can be done.

What exactly is wrong with my statement? As I posted above both the T&Cs and the FAQs on the railcard website say that you have to pay for a new full-fare ticket if you don't have your railcard.

The fact that some ticket offices run by some TOCs will issue an excess doesn't make it the correct advice to give. Do you have a list of TOCs who have officially stated they will issue the excess at all ticket offices and/on board rather than charging for a new ticket?

Edit: Actually, the more I think about it I can't see any difference at all between what I said and you did. I said there isn't a right to an excess, you said that it depends on company policy. I said that some ticket offices will issue it and some won't, you said that some train companies' policy allows offices to issuing them and some don't.

 

[yorkie]

It's actually against industry policy to do this but some companies do this on a discretionary basis. Afaik not all systems can do this either.

There is nothing to say it is "against industry policy". The policy of TOCs varies. Some are sensible, and some are not.
--- old post above --- --- new post below ---

What exactly is wrong with my statement? As I posted above both the T&Cs and the FAQs on the railcard website say that you have to pay for a new full-fare ticket if you don't have your railcard.

The fact that some ticket offices run by some TOCs will issue an excess doesn't make it the correct advice to give. Do you have a list of TOCs who have officially stated they will issue the excess at all ticket offices and on board rather than charging for a new ticket?

It's an incomplete answer, you know some will do it and some won't do it, so why not just say that please? As for a list... do you have such a list? If not, just say some do and some don't.

I know FGW, Northern and Virgin Trains East Coast do them, for a start. The first two I know of staff who do it but I do not know if they have a policy either way, and the last one I have seen the policy is to do it and seen it happen numerous times.

 

[najaB]

It's an incomplete answer, you know some will do it and some won't do it, so why not just say that please?

While it's not phrased in your exact words I think anyone reading:

Technically you cannot excess away a Railcard discount. You may find that some ticket office staff are able/willing to do so.

Will understand that it may or may not be possible depending on who they speak and which ticket office they go to.

 

[Wallsendmag]

Technically you can depending upon where you go

 

[yorkie]

The staff at my local ticket office CAN excess away a Railcard discount and will be willing to do so because it is entirely correct for them to do so. Your statement suggests they'd be doing something wrong, which is clearly not the case.

There is no rule to say it can't be done! So some TOCs apply common sense, and some leave it to their staff to decide, and some lack common sense.

If we had a proper ombudsman standing up for our rights and ensuring fairness and consistent common standards, then we could avoid all this uncertainty and get the excess done anywhere.

 

[Hellfire]

The staff at my local ticket office CAN excess away a Railcard discount and will be willing to do so because it is entirely correct for them to do so. Your statement suggests they'd be doing something wrong, which is clearly not the case.

There is no rule to say it can't be done! So some TOCs apply common sense, and some leave it to their staff to decide, and some lack common sense.

If we had a proper ombudsman standing up for our rights and ensuring fairness and consistent common standards, then we could avoid all this uncertainty and get the excess done anywhere.

I've e mailed Virgin to see if they are willing to use the 'common sense' that Yorkie rightly says is missing in some areas of the industry.I will report back.

 

[Wallsendmag]

I've e mailed Virgin to see if they are willing to use the 'common sense' that Yorkie rightly says is missing in some areas of the industry.I will report back.

Which side ,east or west?

 

[yorkie]

Which side ,east or west?

The side with no geographical boundaries and no suffix. (West )

(As they're about to be all the same brand, I trust they will be getting consistent conditions so that where there was any difference in policy, it will be harmonised in the customers' favour.... so problem solved, I hope!)

 

[bb21]

I thought East Coast were pretty good at doing such excesses anyway, so not much to harmonise in this case.

 

[Wallsendmag]

Afaik they are both now Virgin Trains except for ticket routings

 

[yorkie]

Afaik they are both now Virgin Trains except for ticket routings

It hasn't happened yet, loads of things still say "Virgin Trains East Coast" so I am assuming they will change soon, but this is best continued in the branding thread.

 

[Hellfire]

Which side ,east or west?

If you check my OP you'll see the journey starts at Preston

 

[DaveNewcastle]

I can confirm Wallsendmag's advice that VT East Coast will sell an 'excess' to remove the Railcard discount and this is, in practice, offered to passengers at East Coast stations without hesitation.
However, I feel I should give some cautionary advice to people who might wish to try this when they hold a Railcard discounted ticket and will be unable to produce the appropriate Railcard on the day of travel: The issuing of the 'excess' is likely to incur a £10 'admin fee' * and the replacement will be sold at the price-tiers which are available at the time of issuing the 'excess', which may be higher than those which were bought at the time of the original booking. Furthermore, if the original ticket was booked on-line (and therefore attracted a VT East Coast on-line booking discount), that discount will NOT be available on the cost of the replacement ticket. Both of the above additional costs will frustrate any simple 'rule-of-thumb' calculation that it is only the removal of a discount of a third of the real price.

There might be an alternative solution which would involve seeking the guard's approval before boarding, and to ask for simply the difference in fares. But if the ticket held is an Advance, then a refusal will of course invalidate the ticket at a stroke.

* I do not agree that VT East Coast's application of a £10 fee for the removal of a Railcard discount should incur the "admin fee of up to £10" which is defined as applying to "a change of journey plans". But that still seems to be their practice.

 

[Wallsendmag]

But you could have bought it anywhere .VTEC just add back on any discount no £10 fee, obviously you lose any web discount you may have had

 

[DaveNewcastle]

. . . .
VTEC just add back on any discount no £10 fee, . . . .

I'm sorry to disagree with you, but that is not my experience (at Newcastle Central, Edinburgh Waverley and Kings Cross stations) where a £10 fee has always been applied (and always questioned). And always with EC tickets bought from EC stations or web site)

 

[Wallsendmag]

Strange as I've never seen that

 

[island]

So in summary, whilst an excess fare may or may not be offered to remove a Railcard discount (and my view is that it should not be), it is a breach of the ticket terms and conditions in this instance as tickets are non-transferable.

 

[DaveNewcastle]

Strange as I've never seen that

Well, it's reassuring to think that the experience that I and those I know have just been unlucky!

(Off topic, but I will agree that booking office staff and guards will exchange a Railcard discounted ticket with the wrongly named Railcard-type without an admin fee (or just accept the ticket as it is when presented with the 'wrong' Railcard).)

 

[yorkie]

I've known people obtain the excess without admin fee too. I agree it's not a change of travel plans if you have, for example, forgotten to carry the Railcard.

 

[najaB]

So in summary, whilst an excess fare may or may not be offered to remove a Railcard discount (and my view is that it should not be), it is a breach of the ticket terms and conditions in this instance as tickets are non-transferable.

That seems like a fair assessment. Though there is an argument that obtaining the excess counts as 'buying' the ticket for someone else.