What's the guard checking for before opening the doors?

[northwichcat]

It's to check the train is platformed. Where we are opening the local door first is optional though. I don't bother very often as my route knowledge tells me we're platformed. If you're not sure you can make the check to be sure. If I'm at the back of a train going into a terminal platform or at the back of a 2 car set where I always stop next to a certain bin or whatever I know I'm on. If I'm working an unusual length or train or the stop feels wrong (driver obviously chucking the anchors in or I feel the train slide etc) then I make the check.

I've noticed some guards working 2 car services stopping at platforms with 80m+ length not make a check first and really if the train is stopped towards the back of the platform and they release the doors from the back they know the front doors are definitely on the platform.

 

[387star]

On fgw. You don't have to step out first anymore

 

[Dieseldriver]

Because - apparently - each TOC seems to believe that their way is best. Truth is, the best and safest way is for the Driver to be in control of the door release and the Guard/Conductor to be in charge of door closing. As for the Driver - as has been mentioned in other posts - forgetting/not realising that the train is longer/shorter than at first thought - a simple liason pre-journey chat with the Guard/Conductor like wot we used to do should sort that out. As for joining/detaching en-route goes...."hello mate, that's (insert number of coaches) we've got now".
Seemples! (but now someone will complicate it)

I mention the length of any train I take over from another driver. I discuss the length with my guard where I can. I leave the cab at slightly longer station calls to stretch my legs and stand on the platform visually checking the length of my train. I look back along the train at every platform on my side to check all is safe before departing as well as occasionally looking back on low speed left hand curves. And on top of all that I use a formation card if I feel it's necessary to act as a constant visual aid within the cab.
I've still had occasions where I have nearly stopped short. I've still thought I've had more coaches on and stopped further along the platform than I should hav. Many of my perfectly conscientious and competent colleagues have had stop short incidents. It is not down to 'not knowing' your train length, we are talking about a lapse in concentration at a critical point (as with pretty much all incidents). No matter how professional a driver you are, unfortunately, that can happen to anyone.

 

[LowLevel]

What happens if Network Rail moves some of the platform furniture, or moves some benches to make way for a new shelter etc?

I was simplifying it really - my knowledge of the stations I work through goes a lot deeper than 3rd bin from the right next to the hole in the fence

In much the same way the driver knows where to speed up or slow down, I know when I'm platformed. The key is being switched on enough to realise things aren't as normal or aren't right. I'm generally at the panel before the train enters the platform so I'm concentrating only the doors on arrival.

Really it's just where I am on the station, and all the elements of that environment added together. As part of the route knowledge assessment for example we have to draw stations at platform level.

Anything like works shortening the usual platform length goes in the notice cases as well and gets written on my job card.

 

[craigybagel]

Isn't it now the majority of trains that operate with driver door release? This is quicker because this step is not necessary.

It can be quicker but not always. Bring a stopwatch on a London Overground service some time, its shocking how long it takes the doors to open at every stop.

. Truth is, the best and safest way is for the Driver to be in control of the door release and the Guard/Conductor to be in charge of door closing.

Obviously as a Guard who opens all his own doors I'm a bit biased, but I'm not sure I see the safety advantages in the driver opening the doors?

 

[notadriver]

It can be quicker but not always. Bring a stopwatch on a London Overground service some time, its shocking how long it takes the doors to open at every stop.

Sorry I'm going to have to take issue with that statement as I don't think it's true.

Obviously as a Guard who opens all his own doors I'm a bit biased, but I'm not sure I see the safety advantages in the driver opening the doors?

How does it work on a Pendolino as I always thought that driver put up a door release?

 

[James Wake]

My slowest guard release from a correct stop on a SWT class 455 has been 15 seconds at Fulwell, some guards are really quick. My Pendo last month at Euston from Liverpool I'm sure the driver released the doors. Southern do the driver open and conductor close, which tends to be safer in my opinion because the driver knows they are safely stopped in the right place and don't have to worry about the guard not being on the ball.

 

[pdq]

It's not uncommon to wait a minute or so in Northernland, whilst the guard completes a ticket sale and then has to get back to the rear doors. Can take a while on TPE sometimes as well.

Of course, one only remembers the delays, not the majority of journeys where the doors are released quickly.

 

[craigybagel]

Sorry I'm going to have to take issue with that statement as I don't think it's true.

I noticed on previous journeys it seemed to take forever so I checked my watch on my most recent NLL journey. Worked out at about 9 seconds from the train stopping to the doors being released. Not just once, but at every stop. Even on a 158 with sticky doors I can beat that with a full platform check. Obviously the guard needs to actually be at the panel when the train stops and not selling tickets for this to be the case, and I know that on other DOO/DCO routes the doors are normally released quicker than when there's a guard, but this does not seem to be the case at London Overground for some reason.

How does it work on a Pendolino as I always thought that driver put up a door release?

My slowest guard release from a correct stop on a SWT class 455 has been 15 seconds at Fulwell, some guards are really quick. My Pendo last month at Euston from Liverpool I'm sure the driver released the doors. Southern do the driver open and conductor close, which tends to be safer in my opinion because the driver knows they are safely stopped in the right place and don't have to worry about the guard not being on the ball.

On Pendolinos the driver does indeed release the doors.
My argument was that I don't believe it is safer than the guard opening them. A guard can step out on to the platform and see the train, a driver is relying on stopping at the right stop car marker. The driver also has more distractions in the run in to the station.

Don't get me wrong, I believe that driver opening is relatively safe (and certainly a lot safer than driver closing) but I fail to see how it is safer than guard opening.

 

[Matt Taylor]

It could be said that the door check is irrelevant anyway at some stations where commuters are stood so close to the side of the train that you can't see the back anyway. Guildford, Haslemere, Winchester, Woking and Basingstoke are good examples of this.

 

[tsr]

My slowest guard release from a correct stop on a SWT class 455 has been 15 seconds at Fulwell, some guards are really quick. My Pendo last month at Euston from Liverpool I'm sure the driver released the doors. Southern do the driver open and conductor close, which tends to be safer in my opinion because the driver knows they are safely stopped in the right place and don't have to worry about the guard not being on the ball.

I'm sorry but that's not entirely correct. Southern conductors must release the doors on 171s working at any point on the entire Uckfield line (and indeed on services stopping at smaller stations on the Marshlink line where the train is more than 2 coaches in length). In addition, conductors must be competent to release the doors on any route they sign which can be worked by 455s, and must know the relevant platform lengths etc. This is mainly because the driver cannot release the doors using door deselect (171s over 2 coaches) / manual door locking (455s) where short platforms exist.

377s can't have the doors released by the conductor due to various software issues, but door release buttons are provided in the cabs next to the conductor's signal bell in case this is ever needed. Obviously that would mean that conductor panels would become near-obsolete as they only have door close & signal buttons (no idea why, it's just the way it is).

At Southern the rule is that the local door must be opened first, the conductor must step out and ensure the train is on the platform in the correct place, and release the right number of doors only when they know this. It is not strictly speaking mandatory to see the whole train in the platform at once, as there are some stations where this is pretty much completely impractical (London Road Guildford, Crystal Palace, Ashurst, Edenbridge Town etc.). However, it is mandatory to step out. This makes sure the doors are opened on the correct side as the conductor has to actually place their feet onto the platform, and also ensures that a short platform can be seen as a reminder before door deselect (etc.). Some conductors have been known to ignore such rules which is unacceptable and can fortunately end up being flagged up very easily. The train recorder systems will provide a replay of door opening, closing, sides released, door errors and so on, so any problem can be analysed minutely.

 

[the sniper]

Southern do the driver open and conductor close, which tends to be safer in my opinion because the driver knows they are safely stopped in the right place and don't have to worry about the guard not being on the ball.

As a Guard who releases doors, three times this year it was lucky that I was 'on the ball' when the drivers stopping short seemingly were not. Three likely occasions where they'd have been taken off trains (at least) were it not for there being a Guard in charge of releasing the doors.

 

[455driver]

Here is a really far out idea, why not have an area at the side of the train (lets call it a window*) where the guard can look out as the train arrives at the station then as soon as the train stops the guard will know the train is fully accommodated and can release the doors immediately, the guard will than also be able to watch the complete train out of the platform as well!

* A door which is off the interlock circuit will do just as well, a la SWT 455s!

 

[crehld]

Here is a really far out idea, why not have an area at the side of the train (lets call it a window*) where the guard can look out as the train arrives at the station then as soon as the train stops the guard will know the train is fully accommodated and can release the doors immediately, the guard will than also be able to watch the complete train out of the platform as well!

* A door which is off the interlock circuit will do just as well, a la SWT 455s!

Careful now. That sort of suggestion sounds like innovation to me

 

[the sniper]

Here is a really far out idea, why not have an area at the side of the train (lets call it a window*) where the guard can look out as the train arrives at the station then as soon as the train stops the guard will know the train is fully accommodated and can release the doors immediately, the guard will than also be able to watch the complete train out of the platform as well!

* A door which is off the interlock circuit will do just as well, a la SWT 455s!

But then people couldn't argue how fantastically quicker DOO is...!

Seriously though, it's ridiculous that the way you describe isn't permitted officially where it's very safely possible in many circumstances.

 

[455driver]

It was the way I was taught to work when I started out, no delay in releasing the doors, no problems for the guard doing it and just soooo much better all round than anything that has come since.

 

[wimbledonpete]

On some Underground lines the doors can slide open before the train has quite stopped - normally on the older stock so I guess that can't happen on the newer?

 

[Chris M]

London Underground uses a "correct side door enable" system that only allows the doors to be opened when the cab is within a short distance of the stopping mark. This can be overridden, but the control is on the rear wall of the cab and I believe the procedure requires that the driver place one foot on the platform before doing so to ensure they are opening the doors on the correct side of the train.

Slightly separately from this, the doors on some stocks can be released when the train has decellerated to (I think) 2 mph and is in the CSDE zone so that they are fully open as soon as the train has come to a stop. I don't know about all newer stocks not doing this, but certainly the 09s on the Victoria line don't where it takes at least 3 seconds after stopping for the doors to start opening.

 

[Flying Snail]

It was the way I was taught to work when I started out, no delay in releasing the doors, no problems for the guard doing it and just soooo much better all round than anything that has come since.

It is very frustrating when so many practices that worked perfectly well for generations have now been rendered unsafe by the current requirement for everyone to be responsible for the actions of the terminally stupid.

When CDL was first retrofitted to Mk2+3 hauled stock it was regular practice for guards to release a few seconds before the train came to a stop, presumably as many passengers were used to opening the doors before the trains were stationary.

Nowadays there is a delay while the current safety procedures are completed which handily gives anyone not familiar with the CDL system plenty of time to do their best to rip the door off it's hinges. I have been on a number of sets over the years with CDL faults, I am sure the slow unlocking procedures causing passengers to put extreme pressure on the locks is a big factor in this.

 

[BestWestern]

Why does practice vary by TOC? Doing the doors is often cited as a safety critical task, so if that's the case why isn't there some sort of national standard?

Because the UK rail network is confused, empire-ridden mess of wildly differing corporations with wildly differing ideas of what is best and who is right.

Southern do the driver open and conductor close, which tends to be safer in my opinion because the driver knows they are safely stopped in the right place and don't have to worry about the guard not being on the ball.

That is a complete reversal of the reality. The reason the Guard is required to check the platforming of the train is because the Driver may have stopped short, and in doing so is often unlikely to realise in the split second between pulling up and hitting the release buttons. Driver releasing can be safer now, but only because there is technology available (though not in use in a majority of cases) which can prevent any door release in the wrong circumstances. To suggest it is somehow unsafe for a Guard to release a local door and check is a nonsense.

As for those TOCs who no longer desire their Guards carry out that check, all I can say is each to their own...

 

[island]

Some passengers almost fell down the gap at Cardiff Central on Sunday when the guard refused to release the doors on the 1936 HST to Paddington. The reason was that the passengers (returning from the rugby) crowded around the doors to the extent that the guard could not see and make his safety checks. The passengers further back started shouting at those in front that the doors were manually operated and to open them, which of course accomplished nothing due to the CDL.

After a minute and a half of yelling over the tannoy, people eventually stepped back far enough. Then the poor misfortunates who stood in the arc the door described ended up with no seats.

I would emphasise that this is primarily the said passengers' fault rather than a procedural issue.

 

[BestWestern]

Never have I seen a conductor not do the platform check before releasing the doors

Edit: I'm from Scotland and roll with ScotRail

Are you in Glasgow?

 

[James Wake]

I'm sorry but that's not entirely correct. Southern conductors must release the doors on 171s working at any point on the entire Uckfield line (and indeed on services stopping at smaller stations on the Marshlink line where the train is more than 2 coaches in length). In addition, conductors must be competent to release the doors on any route they sign which can be worked by 455s, and must know the relevant platform lengths etc. This is mainly because the driver cannot release the doors using door deselect (171s over 2 coaches) / manual door locking (455s) where short platforms exist.

I actually didn't know that about the Class 171s, I can see both sides of the argument between guards and DOO operation. I've been thinking and i'm not sure whether anything is really safer. The only time I've seen a driver make an error is on platform 1 at Richmond, he was running an 8 car 455 and stopped on the 4 car mark. He had to buzz the guard to tell her not to release the doors, then moved forward to the correct stopping position. That day trains were terminating at Richmond due to engineering works at Twickenham.

 

[northwichcat]

On some Underground lines the doors can slide open before the train has quite stopped - normally on the older stock so I guess that can't happen on the newer?

On the Paris Metro the doors are released when the train has slowed down to something like 5mph meaning it's possible for passengers to alight before the train has come to a complete stop.
--- old post above --- --- new post below ---

But then people couldn't argue how fantastically quicker DOO is...!

It would still depend on the conductor not being otherwise engaged in revenue duties.

I'm surprised I've never seen the London Underground idea of giving dispatchers portable devices which they can use to make platform announcements on NR routes.

 

[jon0844]

I'm surprised I've never seen the London Underground idea of giving dispatchers portable devices which they can use to make platform announcements on NR routes.

That's what they use at Hatfield now, although I have no idea what determines when they will actually hold a bat and show the driver the doors are clear as they aren't even on the platform all the time. Drivers do it themselves 99% of the time - perhaps A Driver can answer?

Although when it comes to the announcements, complaints from local residents mean they can't use them (well, make any announcements) after 9pm.

I am sure it has made a difference during busy times and disruption.

 

[EbbwJunction1]

The original question is one that has puzzled me for a while, and I am glad that I've now found out the answer - so thanks to all concerned for this.

 

[northwichcat]

Although when it comes to the announcements, complaints from local residents mean they can't use them (well, make any announcements) after 9pm.

I know there's legal noise limits that apply at night but I'm surprised the restriction starts at 9pm opposed to 10 or 11pm.

 

[EbbwJunction1]

I am afraid that should the doors on 125s be released before the train came to a halt, we'd be back to the situation before it applied, and people would try to open the doors whilst the train was moving.

This is dangerous enough for the passengers inside the coaches, but is also very dangerous for passengers on the platform. In the past, I've nearly been hit by coach doors because the person inside didn't take enough care when they opened it and it swung wide open.

Whilst I'm not always happy about the delay in opening doors, I would be very much unhappier if this change happened.

 

[jon0844]

I know there's legal noise limits that apply at night but I'm surprised the restriction starts at 9pm opposed to 10 or 11pm.

I believe it's a voluntary agreement with local residents. Normal automated announcements continue, but manual ones (a lot louder) don't.

 

[craigybagel]

I'm surprised I've never seen the London Underground idea of giving dispatchers portable devices which they can use to make platform announcements on NR routes.

Virgin have them now at some of their stations, including Stockport and Crewe in your neck of the woods.