What's the guard checking for before opening the doors?

[Phil.]

It really makes one wonder how we weren't all killed. "Safety checks" - pah!

 

[455driver]

I am afraid that should the doors on 125s be released before the train came to a halt, we'd be back to the situation before it applied, and people would try to open the doors whilst the train was moving.

This is dangerous enough for the passengers inside the coaches, but is also very dangerous for passengers on the platform. In the past, I've nearly been hit by coach doors because the person inside didn't take enough care when they opened it and it swung wide open.

Whilst I'm not always happy about the delay in opening doors, I would be very much unhappier if this change happened.

So you were stood too close to the edge of the platform then!
If you were a sensible distance back the door wouldn't be anywhere near you.

 

[D1009]

It is very frustrating when so many practices that worked perfectly well for generations have now been rendered unsafe by the current requirement for everyone to be responsible for the actions of the terminally stupid.

I'd tend to agree, but these days it does not matter if a railway accident is caused by a terminally stupid person, it's still an accident which will be blamed on the railway. If you look at the DOO debate (which I have no wish to reopen), people's jobs are now being justified on the basis of checking for stupidity on the part of other people.

 

[Crossover]

Not uncommon to see people trying to get off the train whilst the guard walks away (especially at Shipley p5, where, due to the curve on the platform, there is quite a trek to make sure the train is platformed on a platform with fairly little to spare!)

I always think that to the untrained eye, watching a guard do this off a 2 car Pacer on the IC225 length platform at Wakefield Westgate must look a bit bonkers! Many guards just have a quick lean out with one leaf only open, but some will step on to the platform then come back to the train again

I believe it's a voluntary agreement with local residents. Normal automated announcements continue, but manual ones (a lot louder) don't.

It not too surprising - I was in Scarborough a few weeks ago, about 10pm and a mile or so from the station. I could hear the bongs from the station that precede an announcement

 

[40129]

In the last 2 years of conducting there have been eight occasions when I've had to give six due to the driver stopping short. On my patch almost every line has at least one intermediate station where the platform is on the opposite side of the track to all the others. There's also at least one station where alternate trains have the platform on apposite sides (Train 1 left side, train 2 right side, train 3 left side, etc.)

I'm therefore not comfortable with the idea of drivers releasing doors on trains that stop frequently. Conductors do at least have to move to the correct side of the train even if they don't step out before releasing

 

[TEW]

At Southern the rule is that the local door must be opened first, the conductor must step out and ensure the train is on the platform in the correct place, and release the right number of doors only when they know this. It is not strictly speaking mandatory to see the whole train in the platform at once, as there are some stations where this is pretty much completely impractical (London Road Guildford, Crystal Palace, Ashurst, Edenbridge Town etc.).

Are Southern guards not permitted to use the CCTV despatch equipment at London Road Guildford then? It's in pretty much the optimum position for a guard working an 8-car 455 from the middle cab, and allows them to check the whole length of the train.

 

[tsr]

Are Southern guards not permitted to use the CCTV despatch equipment at London Road Guildford then? It's in pretty much the optimum position for a guard working an 8-car 455 from the middle cab, and allows them to check the whole length of the train.

In the Down direction, CCTV equipment is usually used for despatch only and not for door release. You can check that the train is fully on the platform by walking down slightly and observing the position of the rear coach against the end of the platform (8 coach 455) or by the position against the station buildings (4 coach 455). Unfortunately the CCTV does not actually line up properly for Southern stock and only seems to have been designed for guards using the conductor panels on SWT 455s. There are subtle and rather annoying differences; it's not unsafe but it adds a delay. It would take a long time to both open and close the doors using it, when an adequate use of landmarks can be made for door opening.

CCTV is only used for 9 or 10 coach services operated by Southern for Up direction services at London Road. 455s in 4 or 8 coach formation do not need CCTV if the conductor moves a couple of feet in each direction for the relevant checks.

 

[EbbwJunction1]

So you were stood too close to the edge of the platform then! If you were a sensible distance back the door wouldn't be anywhere near you.

This was not the case at all, I assure you.

 

[theironroad]

This was not the case at all, I assure you.

I'd have thought standing away from platform edge would include standing far enough away not to be hit by opening doors on older stock.

So either you weren't standing far enough away or there were some trains running around with massive outward opening patio doors..

 

[wellwhatitis]

I'm surprised I've never seen the London Underground idea of giving dispatchers portable devices which they can use to make platform announcements on NR routes.

Birmingham New St have these now although some of the staff are refusing to use them.

 

[theironroad]

I'm surprised I've never seen the London Underground idea of giving dispatchers portable devices which they can use to make platform announcements on NR routes.

Well I stood next to a guy yesterday using one at Tonbridge and I think I've seen them used at clapham jnc before on the Swt side, but could be mistaken on that one.

 

[tsr]

Well I stood next to a guy yesterday using one at Tonbridge and I think I've seen them used at clapham jnc before on the Swt side, but could be mistaken on that one.

They do use them at Tonbridge - in fact, it's one of the few times when I've been seriously impressed by the way they were being used. The whole thing sounded a lot clearer than at other stations, and the dispatch staff sounded very polished and professional - without any sort of timetable card or prompt, too. I can't say that about some of these radio mic setups.

Many Southern interchanges now have this equipment but it seems to be quite variable in the way it is used (many station staff still use fixed PA equipment located in platform offices by preference, as then the staff often have more information to hand) and it also is occasionally linked up to deteriorating amplification equipment anyway. Where it's done well, especially by staff standing on platforms who can see what's going on at closer quarters, I'm pleased it gives more flexibility.

 

[LowLevel]

Could I perhaps be the Devil's advocate here and put forward a theory, possibly nonsense, that most of the TOCs still making this check mandatory rather than relying on their staff to be professional and use their discretion and thus imposing a significant cumulative time penalty on guard operated trains are the ones seeking to remove their guards where possible in the near future (ScotRail, Northern etc)?

May be rubbish of course and FGW may be the exception.

 

[Phil.]

Could I perhaps be the Devil's advocate here and put forward a theory, possibly nonsense, that most of the TOCs still making this check mandatory rather than relying on their staff to be professional and use their discretion and thus imposing a significant cumulative time penalty on guard operated trains are the ones seeking to remove their guards where possible in the near future (ScotRail, Northern etc)?

May be rubbish of course and FGW may be the exception.

You may be on to something there. In a dubious contest for the slowest Guard platform times my monies on Great Western.

 

[notadriver]

Why can't they simply let the guards use the train fitted CCTV cameras to despatch from rear or intermediate cabs? That would speed things up rather than guards having to get onto the platform first etc

 

[LowLevel]

You may be on to something there. In a dubious contest for the slowest Guard platform times my monies on Great Western.

I just find it interesting as my TOC is quite heavily pro guard and I have the doors open, generally, and loading underway as soon as the train has settled down on it's suspension after stopping as I know my road and I tend to work my trains in a broadly similar way - and of course I have the ability to do the full check at my discretion.

Mandating this in daft circumstances such as trains arriving in terminal platforms with the guard at the back just serves to disadvantage the grade, in my opinion.

 

[tsr]

Could I perhaps be the Devil's advocate here and put forward a theory, possibly nonsense, that most of the TOCs still making this check mandatory rather than relying on their staff to be professional and use their discretion and thus imposing a significant cumulative time penalty on guard operated trains are the ones seeking to remove their guards where possible in the near future (ScotRail, Northern etc)?

May be rubbish of course and FGW may be the exception.

The exact current position of the Southern part of GTR regarding the conductor's role is unclear at present, but they do not seem to lose much if any time at most stations where conductors open the doors. And yet the conductor must alight and check the train is fully on the platform first. I have yet to speak to a Southern driver who prefers DOO, and many of them seem to think conductor working is actually just as quick when trickier situations such as dark platforms, disruptive passengers etc. are taken into account. It is only when the design of the stations is really awful (I've mentioned Crystal Palace once already, take heed future station designers, that curve on Platform 2 is not clever or funny!) that conductors can take a while to open doors.

Why can't they simply let the guards use the train fitted CCTV cameras to despatch from rear or intermediate cabs? That would speed things up rather than guards having to get onto the platform first etc

I can't think of any stock where guards can view the footage from bodyside CCTV cameras when onboard the train. You may need quite a few modifications to software and indeed possibly hardware systems. Older Electrostars have [often quite bad] internal CCTV screens on the conductor panels, but if that's the best that could be done for external footage, the MkI eyeball will suffice for now...

 

[BestWestern]

I just find it interesting as my TOC is quite heavily pro guard and I have the doors open, generally, and loading underway as soon as the train has settled down on it's suspension after stopping as I know my road and I tend to work my trains in a broadly similar way - and of course I have the ability to do the full check at my discretion.

Mandating this in daft circumstances such as trains arriving in terminal platforms with the guard at the back just serves to disadvantage the grade, in my opinion.

I think the concern, certainly at our place, is that if you allow a little discretion there will always be those who then don't bother at all, which then increases risk. Of course, there may be better ways of tackling that attitude.