New use for the class 442's

[387star]

Brighton had an active traincrew depot until 2006. The brighton services were axed after Arriva took over the franchise and the map was redrawn to add stanstead-cardiff and removed the West coast work to a mix of virgin and TPE. Pompeii line services and Poole were axed upon introduction of operation flickup, err... Princess! Along with the Ramsgate and weymouth summer saturday trains. When the timetable couldnt be sustained thats when Liverpool was axed along with BPN-BHI workings and the HST's were handed over to Midland Mainline for project rio. Solihull a
So lost its station stop. It was also around this time BMH and west country-WCML scotland services were split at MAN in order to build robustness in the schedules. Ironically reliability improved meaning the terminator on 5-6 often got in with time to spare before the scottish service departed 14. Its this bit that TPE now run.

1O31 19:46ish LIV-GTW was never on time and was rarely less than an hour late bu the time it reached BHM (scheduled 21:33 departure) when the Reading based crew would take over with Brighton taking over at Reading for the stint to Gatwick often departing after midnight. The brighton crew passed from brighton to reading and waited for the back working on that late diagram. This service was eventually axed when Liverpool was given up leaving 1V96 16:04 GLC-PAD (d BHM 21:03) as the last thames valley service. Paddington was also subsequently axed as a destination but remained a traincrew boarding point for a couple of services (1M07 07:03 PAD-MAN still ran ecs from PAD to form 07:33 @RDG which required the train crew to book on at 04:30 for an all stations thames/FGW link turbo to PAD. That was a eye watering shift! 09:03 PAD-MAN reversed in PAD but traincrew boarded at RDG to form 1M11 @09:33. This was a HST, but utilised a west coast 8 car set on a Saturday but still stopped at Solihull until the HSTs were withdrawn hen it switched to a 4 car voyager)

Any pics of virgin trains at ramagate, weymouth and liverpool?

Also any voyager pics at portsmouth?

I remember catching one at Havant

 

[gimmea50anyday]

They used a deltic to ramsgate....

Weymouth was only ever served by HST and 47/mk2's although they sent voyagers during the olympics as specials.

Pompey only saw voyagers on first introduction but didnt go there after the operation princess timetable

Sure google will turn up some images.......

 

[swt_passenger]

Can we ban all threads on 442's until there are real proposals as to what's actually happening with these trains

Good idea.

And then can we ban threads about "XC to Brighton" from threads about completely different subjects?

Another good idea would be to discuss the introduction of 387/2s in a specifically named thread. There probably is one already.

 

[The Ham]

As I have suggested before:

http://www.railforums.co.uk/showthread.php?p=2145568&post2145568

The 442's (may they live forever) are so saintly that no government will ever scrap them and will authorise many rebuilds until they ultimately form the basis of the interstellar ship which saves all humanity by taking them to earth 2.0.

All we have to do now is work out the next rebuild which best takes them on towards their ultimate goal.

 

[zn1]

why hasnt anyone thought about taking a standard Mk3, lobbing a Pan and associated housing on it, throw a transformer underneath and incorporate it in to a test unit...im just thinking about the Atrain 310 which used a VEP motor coach for DC incorporated in to the 310...

 

[BlythPower]

There's a reasonable number of 33/1s in preservation - just fettle those up and off you go! Not forgetting that the high level pipes could be left in place on some of the 73/9s for the same purpose.

 

[physics34]

just a tip to people that are moaning about too many 442 threads..... how about not clicking on them... and even better...not reading them or posting on them!

 

[klewer]

Razor blades seems like the best option. If they really were that amazing a train, SWT/Southern would have surely kept them running?

 

[Philip Phlopp]

why hasnt anyone thought about taking a standard Mk3, lobbing a Pan and associated housing on it, throw a transformer underneath and incorporate it in to a test unit...im just thinking about the Atrain 310 which used a VEP motor coach for DC incorporated in to the 310...

That was a test unit designed to acquire data and to test Hitachi's traction package for the Class 395 high speed units and generate data for the Class 465 re-tractioning equipment. It wasn't a test unit in the same way that the Network Rail New Measurement Train is a test unit.

If you're going to build a test unit, you need to have something to test, and with Hitachi, Bombardier, Siemens and Alstom acquiring data every day from the units that they currently have in service, there's no need to develop a new test unit for any of those companies. They also have stock in service on which they can (subject to ROSCO and TOC agreement) try out any design changes and new technology.

If a new entrant to the GB rolling stock market wishes to build their own test unit, there are options out there already to suit, most likely to be a short to medium term lease of a Class 319 unit, but I would suggest the likelihood of that is quite remote, we've replaced lots of signalling equipment and done a fair amount of immunisation works in the last 10 years, any supplier should be able to come in with a design which meets the Network Rail specifications and the relevant European TSIs and it should run with minimal trouble (as happened with the Class 68 diesel locomotives).

I know Stadler, CAF and possibly Hyundai-ROTEM are considering launching products for the GB market, and they're not currently looking to run their own test trains.

If you fit a transformer to a standard Mk3 coach, it will bend in the middle and the transformer will drag along the track and ballast in the four foot. The roof on a Mk3 coach is a structural item too, it took RVEL (I think, from memory) a bit of work to fit the pantograph well to the Mk3 that forms part of the NMT.

 

[RichmondCommu]

Why don't we convert them to bar cars for use on the GEML? Serving a range of cider and ales, I'm sure that'd be an acceptable use for most forum members.

If you're selling cider and ales you should also start selling vodka shots and glasses of wine.

 

[Peter Sarf]

I have heard a vague rumour that DRS might well be supplying 68s for TPE services using 442s !. I do not expect it is true BUT I suppose a 442's door spacing is ideal for more intercity type journeys and the coaches are fairly modern - its just the 1960s recycled DC traction package that needs to go which would be redundant for TPE.

Having said the above I think 442s working push-pull from Oxted to Uckfield makes sense - nice use for a 68. Then Uckfield passengers could go back to having a through Victoria service !. I am sure the 171s could EASILY find use elsewhere thus adding to the attractiveness of the 442 option.

[/end brainstorm][wake-up].

 

[RichmondCommu]

just a tip to people that are moaning about too many 442 threads..... how about not clicking on them... and even better...not reading them or posting on them!

Good point well made! Anyways I was thinking that the class 442's should be cut up pronto and then we can make something shiny and new. How about lots of shiny and new class 800 / 801's?

 

[PHILIPE]

Good point well made! Anyways I was thinking that the class 442's should be cut up pronto and then we can make something shiny and new. How about lots of shiny and new class 800 / 801's?

If they were cut up we'd have less to discuss on the Forum !!!

 

[158722]

I have heard a vague rumour that DRS might well be supplying 68s for TPE services using 442s !. I do not expect it is true BUT I suppose a 442's door spacing is ideal for more intercity type journeys and the coaches are fairly modern - its just the 1960s recycled DC traction package that needs to go which would be redundant for TPE.

More than a vague rumour... Unconfirmed reports that every bidder (3?) for the TPE franchise has included the use of 68s/442s in their proposals.

As 16 442s are to be freed soon enough from TSGN, would it be coincidence that DRS now have 17 68s on order, whilst it would take exactly 14 diagrams to cover the current Liverpool-Newcastle and Liverpool-Scarborough? 17 locos, 16 sets of stock for 14 diagrams is emminently sensible. Or too sensible...?!

 

[RichmondCommu]

If they were cut up we'd have less to discuss on the Forum !!!

Oh don't worry there would still be endless threads of absolute tripe!

 

[northwichcat]

More than a vague rumour... Unconfirmed reports that every bidder (3?) for the TPE franchise has included the use of 68s/442s in their proposals.

Certain rail journalists are (unofficially) claiming every bidder has proposed ordering new bi-mode stock, so if both rumours are true then the loco-hauled 442s will only be an interim measure until they get new build stock. That wouldn't be a bad idea as TPE obviously need more carriages ASAP and new build will take a while to procure. Possibly ordering new bi-mode also strengthens the case for replacing 350s on Scottish services sooner rather than later.

 

[RichmondCommu]

More than a vague rumour... Unconfirmed reports that every bidder (3?) for the TPE franchise has included the use of 68s/442s in their proposals.

Unconfirmed reports from where exactly? The end of one of the platforms at Doncaster?

 

[158722]

Unconfirmed reports from where exactly? The end of one of the platforms at Doncaster?

Not a place I frequent, perhaps you know better?

 

[RichmondCommu]

Not a place I frequent, perhaps you know better?

Doncaster Rovers and their stadium and that's about it.

However you've not answered my question, from whom have you received this information regarding the use of 442's on TPE services? Just curious that's all.

 

[61653 HTAFC]

Unconfirmed reports from where exactly? The end of one of the platforms at Doncaster?

Given that such a possibility was specified as an option in the ITT, it's entirely possible that there's more to it than the usual platform-end-wibble. That said given the issues on the North TPE core with dwell times and so on, I'd have though South TPE or North West express services (if there are any non-Scottish services that remain operated by TPE) would be more suitable. If they can be adapted to allow the 68 to propel from the rear then reversals at Piccadilly and the Airport are not such an issue.

 

[Haydn1971]

Doing anything with 442's seems pointless with dozens of Mk3 and Mk4 carriages coming free a few years from now.

 

[northwichcat]

Doing anything with 442's seems pointless with dozens of Mk3 and Mk4 carriages coming free a few years from now.

With the 442s being newer carriages it might be more life can be got out of them than the mk3s.

 

[158722]

Doncaster Rovers and their stadium and that's about it.

However you've not answered my question, from whom have you received this information regarding the use of 442's on TPE services? Just curious that's all.

As 61653 HTFAC has commented, such use of 442s was referenced in the ITT documents, so it can't be a surprise that bidders are taking on board this 'suggestion' by the DfT.

As you would imagine, I'm not prepared to say on a public forum as to where the comments have come from, but let's just say its not platform end wibble. Might turn out to be wibble, we'll know in December...

 

[gnolife]

I hear that there's a current shortage of cans to store worms in, with the frequency at which cans of worms get opened at on here. Maybe the 442s could be cut up to replace them.

 

[HarleyDavidson]

The 442s are much too good for you lot up north & besides you'll only whinge about them like the rabble on the Brighton Main. :roll:

Keep them down south where they'll be appreciated.

 

[gazthomas]

I'm not sure if this has been covered already, but if not, it's a shame they've removed the Southern Region plumbing from from the GBRf 73/9's. They could have used the 442s as push-pull sleeper stock, a single unit for Fort William, pairs for Inverness, Aberdeen and 3 on the lowland!

 

[HarleyDavidson]

No they couldn't because they had their ETH capability removed gawd knows how many years ago, you should still be able to connect a 442 up to a 73 and drive it remotely from the leading cab of the 442 with the 73 pushing, unless of course they've changed all of the multiple unit working configuration in the jumpers.

 

[PHILIPE]

Shouldn't this thread be under the Heading of "Trivia" ?

 

[gazthomas]

Surely the 442s are old enough to have oil based heating and lighting?

 

[6Gman]

To be used as part of the sixty four trains an hour up the Lea Valley, as part of plans to finally give Brighton a Cross Country link to platform 3c at Preston - hauled by reconditioned Class 60s?

(more seriously... you'd have to spend so much on converting them, when dozens of Mk3s are going to be freed up by IEP in a couple of years... maybe they'd be suitable for railtours?)

Perhaps they could be rebuilt at Long Marston for use on the Underground?