Rochford to London via Southend issues with c2c and PF

[Llanigraham]

Heres how they dealt with my complaint (so far - I'm not done yet).

Be warned - there are sixty pages!

Got to page 24 and got bored!!
Now how about paraphrasing it for us?

 

[Darandio]

Got to page 24 and got bored!!
Now how about paraphrasing it for us?

I'm at page 54 but cannot bear to go any further now it's at stage of:

Demand £500 compensation.
Demand the dismissal/prosecution of several members of staff.
Demand the home address of one of the employees so they can be arrested, by the claimant no less!

I was slightly on their side prior to that.

Edit**

Couldn't resist going to the end.

Threats of 'Dealing with staff properly' and claiming to know the commute of staff so you can meet them is unacceptable.

 

[bb21]

Got to page 24 and got bored!!
Now how about paraphrasing it for us?

You were warned that it had 60 pages.

 

[319321]

I'm at page 54 but cannot bear to go any further now it's at stage of:

Demand £500 compensation.
Demand the dismissal/prosecution of several members of staff.
Demand the home address of one of the employees so they can be arrested, by the claimant no less!

I was slightly on their side prior to that.

Edit**

Couldn't resist going to the end.

Threats of 'Dealing with staff properly' and claiming to know the commute of staff so you can meet them is unacceptable.

£500 isn't reasonable given these circumstances? Its thr lower end of what FOS would give me in these circumstances.

I never threatened to arrest the ticket inspector, only Julian because he's the company officer presiding over this mess.

With regard to meeting the Customer Services Director, this was a genuine offer as it seems that TF had a productive meeting with him and I wanted to help him understand the issues here. He seems to think that because I dare question the industry I must be a criminal, when I'm not.

In my position, given that my being weak and buying a second ticket rather than facing a penalty fare and being shouted at even more by the ticket inspector has led to me losing money, I think most people would decide that it would be easier to ignore the ticket inspector and just physcially shove them out of the way.

Main things to take away from this:
- Complain escalated to TF on 02 March
- Acknowledged on the 10 March and they asked for information that I had already given them
- Promised a response by 22/04, but didnt even start work on my complaint until 28/05
- The person dealing with my complaint openly admitted she had no idea what was going on several times
- She accepted a miserly sum on my behalf and told me that I would need to purchase two tickets in future for a journey that I should only require one for.
- TF initially took ATOCs word for it. They also didnt consider the fact that the routing guide had changed in the time between I made my journey and the time they considered my complaint.
- TF were blamed by c2c for the long delays in dealing with my complaint (I don't believe them).
- Even if TF think something, they will defer to what ATOC or the TOC says.
- TF wont use the powers that they have
- TF just gave up and gave the issue back to me to deal with, arguably in a worse state than when I handed it over to them to deal with
- There is evidence that TF, ATOC and the TOCs are all chums who ask about each others holidays
I could go on but the sixty pages speak for themselves.

 

[Merseysider]

Got to page 24 and got bored!!
Now how about paraphrasing it for us?

Why should he?

In any case £500 isn't unreasonable if the 40+ hours mentioned is a true reflection of the time spent on the case. Had 319321 instructed a solicitor from the outset, with a view to litigate, 40 hours would cost c2c a lot more than £500. What's the going rate for decent solicitors these days? £150-£200/hour?

 

[deltic]

Heres how they dealt with my complaint (so far - I'm not done yet).

Be warned - there are sixty pages!

I took away a few lessons from this.

One Transport Focus is toothless and comes across as very disorganised - if you want to take your case further can you refer them to the Parliamentary and Health Service Ombudsman which investigates complaints about unfair or improper actions or poor services by UK government departments and their agencies in the UK.

Also complain to your MP - depending on who they are they can sometimes be very effective

Second keep complaints impersonal and succinct - helps everyone to understand what the issue is and what solution you are seeking

Third, dont seek action against staff - even if an organisation might privately agree with you it is unlikely to publicly denounce its own staff unless they committed some heinous crime.

I see the price of a ticket from Rochford to Liverpool Street direct and to Fenchurch Street via Southend remain the same

 

[arabianights]

Why should he?

In any case £500 isn't unreasonable if the 40+ hours mentioned is a true reflection of the time spent on the case. Had 319321 instructed a solicitor from the outset, with a view to litigate, 40 hours would cost c2c a lot more than £500. What's the going rate for decent solicitors these days? £150-£200/hour?

I also read it, I don't have an issue with the amounts he is requesting, but the multiple calls for the and sacking (!) and prosecution (!!!) of staff is ridiculous. It's also, I would suggest, counter productive as it makes it less likely that the complaint will be taken seriously.

There's no suggestion that they acted maliciously and in the real world being dismissed from a well paid (relative to skill level) job and given a criminal record is the sort of thing that leads to familial breakup and suicide in the worst cases... its dementedly out of proportion.

Nevertheless I am grateful that it was shared with us as it is an interesting read, and I'm sure if he really considered the implications of what he is asking he, well, wouldn't be asking it.

 

[319321]

The ticket inspector was so unreasonable that yes, I do think she should be sacked. She refused to look at my phone. If after ten years of working for the railway she hasn't learnt that such tickets are valid, that c2c being paid for the journey has nothing to do with whether or not the ticket is valid and that you cannot penalty fare passengers for being off route, she will probably never learn.

TOC's in general don't seem to have a problem pursuing passengers who make innocent mistakes through the courts. Why shouldn't the same standards apply to their own staff?

 

[najaB]

If I could slightly rearrange your post:

The ticket inspector should be sacked. She refused to look at my phone.

..pretty much sums up nicely why this line of complaint will get nowhere.

 

[arabianights]

The ticket inspector was so unreasonable that yes, I do think she should be sacked. She refused to look at my phone. If after ten years of working for the railway she hasn't learnt that such tickets are valid, that c2c being paid for the journey has nothing to do with whether or not the ticket is valid and that you cannot penalty fare passengers for being off route, she will probably never learn.

Even though she is a ticket inspector, due to the system understanding ticketing perfectly is not a requirement of her job - getting 99% right would be perfectly acceptable* - and in any case this assumes that a) C2C teaches everything correctly, b) it's up to you to make hiring decisions.

Generally speaking people should not be fired for making a mistake, only misconduct.

TOC's in general don't seem to have a problem pursuing passengers who make innocent mistakes through the courts. Why shouldn't the same standards apply to their own staff?

Two wrongs don't make a right, I find the behaviour of some TOCs in this respect to be abominable as well.

*Given some of the interesting debates on this forum I'm skeptical that there is such a thing as a perfect understanding of ticketing, so ridiculous is our system. Friendliness and general customer service is more important over all in the role I would suggest, certainly putting myself in the position of a TOC I would pick the friendly outgoing ticket inspector who got 1% of tickets wrong over the surly/asocial one who got 99.9% correct.

 

[Merseysider]

The ticket inspector was so unreasonable that yes, I do think she should be sacked. She refused to look at my phone. If after ten years of working for the railway she hasn't learnt that such tickets are valid, that c2c being paid for the journey has nothing to do with whether or not the ticket is valid and that you cannot penalty fare passengers for being off route, she will probably never learn.

TOC's in general don't seem to have a problem pursuing passengers who make innocent mistakes through the courts. Why shouldn't the same standards apply to their own staff?

A minor point here, and I'm not disagreeing with you at all. But how off-route can one be before a penalty fare becomes appropriate? I'm not too familiar with the c2c network, but I am sure, for example, EMT could (probably correctly) penalty fare a passenger using a Sheffield - Chesterfield ticket via Doncaster, Lincoln and Nottingham. Where is the distinction between "off route" and "taking the p+ss"?

 

[319321]

@want2lukatpics Yes, they do make mistakes. But this particular ticket inspector should have made her own enquiries, or at least heard my arguments properly. It should not have been necessary for me to contact customer services who then made their own mistakes. She hasn't even been disciplined over this.

@JakeF A passenger who can show their route as being valid using the routing guide, the shortest route rule or the any direct train rule should be offered an appropriate excess ticket. Where there is no 'any permitted' ticket for the journey, an excess should be calculated using the nearest stations/tickets that would allow for an any permitted or other appropriate fare to be calculated (as discussed on other forum threads).

Only where the passenger is no using a route that would not be permitted at all under any interpretation of the rules should the be given a penalty fare. IMO anyway.

 

[najaB]

She hasn't even been disciplined over this.

Since c2c believe the route wasn't valid, why would they have disciplined her?

 

[319321]

Because she was wrong. Don't worry, if you read the whole thing I asked for a similar fate for all the staff members who were wrong. I'm very fair like that

 

[bb21]

If C2C refuse to entertain your other demands, simply offering you a gesture of goodwill financially, what are you going to do?

 

[319321]

I would not accept any gesture of goodwill.

They aren't even offering one.

They need to acknowledge (at least corporately) that they are in the wrong and compensate me appropriately.

Note that they have *NEVER* apologised with regard to the ticket not being accepted.

I really don't think that asking Haydn,the ticket inspectors, Nikki and Tunde to apologise for putting me through this is too much to ask. It would really send the message home to them that they cannot and should not be treating passengers like this.
--- old post above --- --- new post below ---

If I could slightly rearrange your post:
..pretty much sums up nicely why this line of complaint will get nowhere.

That's too much of a summary - maybe I should have phrased it "refused to be reasonable".

 

[bb21]

I understand all that, but my question is what if they refuse, as I simply can't see your calls on people being sacked or apologies from the individuals concerned being entertained (disciplinary issues being a confidential matter and rightly so imo), even if they acknowledge that you were totally correct, let alone in your case.

 

[319321]

If I come across that ticket inspector again, I will be having words with her. If I can attend a 'meet the manager' event, I will do so and will be having words with the relevant people. These people cannot be allowed to get away with treating passengers like this.

 

[najaB]

These people cannot be allowed to get away with treating passengers like this.

Just out of curiosity, have you ever considered that you might be in the wrong?

 

[319321]

Just out of curiosity, have you ever considered that you might be in the wrong?

How?

When I produced a journey plan with RJIS and the front page of the routing guide says that any ticket used in conjunction with a journey plan is automatically valid?

I considered the first night when I double checked I could make a journey plan. From then on, everything I can see from what I have researched shows that I am in the right, and at no time has any person come up with any argument that I was unable to rebut.

Transport Focus agree with me. At some times, though they keep chopping and changing, ATOC agree with me. Greater Anglia agree with me.

 

[najaB]

I considered the first night when I double checked I could make a journey plan. From then on, everything I can see from what I have researched shows that I am in the right, and at no time has any person come up with any argument that I was unable to rebut.

As I said, it's just out of curiosity - calling for people to be sacked sounds like you're on a crusade and not all of them turned out to be as justified and righteous when viewed in hindsight.

 

[arabianights]

If I come across that ticket inspector again, I will be having words with her. If I can attend a 'meet the manager' event, I will do so and will be having words with the relevant people. These people cannot be allowed to get away with treating passengers like this.

You understand though that they are likely, at best, to nod politely, then once you are out of the room having said your piece roll their eyes and carry on as before? Look at things from her perspective - is she going to believe you or her managers?

The reality is there are not enough ticketing enthusiasts with the correct other attributes to make up all the ticket inspectors, and it is not a job that tends to attract Oxbridge Phds.

In other words the only way that passengers are never going to be stopped from travelling on valid tickets is a massive simplification of the ticketing system.

Or in yet other words, careful what you wish for!

 

[bb21]

If I come across that ticket inspector again, I will be having words with her.

That will help, how?

 

[319321]

In the first instance, they could have either:
a) allowed me to travel, perhaps clarifying whether or not my ticket was valid whilst I was travelling
b) checked the journey on their website and/or on RJIS so they could see my journey was valid (taking all of five minutes at most)
c) the customer relations person could have checked on their web site or RJIS
d) The ticket office clerk should have tried producing a journey plan

If I hadn't had my cash card with me, potentially I could have been left unable to travel.

I waited forty-five minutes for them to clarify the issue. They didn't. I dont believe youve read my complaint properly or see the videos I produced.

They could at least apologise for being wrong. They havn't. They could have at least made sound arguments. They didn't.
--- old post above --- --- new post below ---

That will help, how?

She will be aware that she was in the wrong. I will know that she is aware that she was in the wrong. I have had no such assurances from the TOC. I will also be asking for her ID under the Penalty Fares Rules 2002 so that I can report her to the Department for Transport.

I am not sure as to whether I can still prosecute her under railway byelaws as it is more than six months since the incident, but it is less than six months since I became aware the offence was committed because it was only two months ago that TF came back and said my ticket was valid. I would also ask her for her name and address. She probably wont give it to me, but it is still worth a try.

It would also be humiliating for her, as it was for me when she was shouting at me accusing me of fraudulent travel.
--- old post above --- --- new post below ---
Another point @najab:

Do you really think that someone employed as a "fares expert" (c2c's words) should be in that job when they don't know what a valid ticket is?

 

[bb21]

She will be aware that she was in the wrong. I will know that she is aware that she was in the wrong.

Really? Is that what you are hoping for?

If so, I can almost certainly tell you that it will not be the case without needing to be there. "Having a word" from you achieves nothing, nada, zilch.

I have had no such assurances from the TOC.

... who are the real ones you should be chasing after imo for an acknowledgement that the matter was not dealt with correctly.

I will also be asking for her ID under the Penalty Fares Rules 2002 so that I can report her to the Department for Transport.

Good luck with that, if you go there with the mentality you seem to show here.

I am not sure as to whether I can still prosecute her under railway byelaws as it is more than six months since the incident, but it is less than six months since I became aware the offence was committed because it was only two months ago that TF came back and said my ticket was valid. I would also ask her for her name and address. She probably wont give it to me, but it is still worth a try.

On what basis?

It would also be humiliating for her, as it was for me when she was shouting at me accusing me of fraudulent travel.

I get the feeling that it will be seen by passers-by as you making a scene rather than a humiliating experience for her.

FWIW I have no doubt that you ticket is valid, but I cannot help but form the opinion that you are doing this all wrong.

 

[arabianights]

319321 at one point I was about to give you one of my favourite bits of advice, namely that it's extremely difficult to reason someone out of a position they haven't reasoned themselves into.

The more I see of your plans to increase the suffering in this world (which is what they are) I think it's advice that really I should be taking myself.

This is not a good use of your time and is going to end badly for you. Let it go or completely change your strategy.

 

[319321]

I have tried chasing the TOC, but look where that got me: nowhere.

I have tried passing the issue over to Transport Focus, but they have passed it back to me to deal with. They have advised me that I should proceed along the legal route, which must include deaing with the ticket inspector.

I'm not going out looking for her, and havn't come across her in my everyday travels since the incident in question.

On what basis?

That she 'molested or inconvienced a person about the railway', in that she prevented me from passing through the ticket barrier. Railway Byelaws are strict liability offences, and I struggle to see how their worships or a district judge could find that she did not cause me inconvienience.

 

[arabianights]

While we're playing amateur lawyer, you know the CPS can take over a private prosecution and shut it down if it's not in the public interest, right?

It will never get in front of the beaks.

 

[319321]

I do know that.

I am not playing the amatuer lawyer. I am being a concerned citizen. It is in the public interest that the public can use the railway as it is intended to be used. It is in the public interest that railway staff cannot commit crimes under the railway byelaws against passengers.

The facts of this particular case are such that it is in the public interest to prosecute. The CPS never seem to intervene when passengers are prosecuted under railway byelaws for non-criminal mistakes, so I fail to see why they would see this particular case as not being in the public interest.

 

[bb21]

Well, good luck with what you are trying to achieve. Complaining is an art and I cannot help but feel that I cannot agree with your approach, and even less so now that I have read the first 40 pages or so of your attached document.

If you manage to get the £200 you ask them for (or did it escalate further) then I am sure others will be able to benefit from your experience, but until then, I can only send you my best wishes as I have nothing further to add in order to help you get the outcome you want.