How good (or bad) is Transport Focus at taking complaints up with train companies?

[gray1404]

I thought we could have a thread in which people detail their experiences of taking their complaints about train operators to Transport Focus. How good and effective are they?

I have recently had a bad experience of Transport Focus not even understanding the comaplint or being able to see which TOC it related to. I will post the details when I have more time this week.

Needless to say, I am very unhappy with TF and wonder if others have had bad experiences too. They hardly seem like then effective body in taking up passenger complaints.

 

[319321]

My experience has been awful. It might help you to know that they do respond to FOI requests...maybe ask them for 'all correspondence in the case PFxxxxxx'? Then you can see how bad they really are!

 

[maniacmartin]

I'm pretty sure that any correspondance in the case of PFxxxx is not subject to FoI due to data protection issues. You may possibly have joy instead with a Subject Access Request under the Data Protection Act if the case involved you though.

As for Transport Focus generally, my opinion of them is very bad. I'm been very unimpressed with the correspondance I have had with them in the past, when they were called Passenger Focus. Various FoI requests to them on whatdotheyknow.com also show that they have a severe lack of understanding or inclination of the NRCoC or Routeing Guide, and are more interested in fobbing you off.

I've also seem some correspondance for other peoples' cases. In one case, after months of correspondance during which they totally failed to grasp the issue, they eventually found in favour of the passenger, but then told the wrong TOC to issue compensation, despite this TOC not being involved in the dispute at all. Another case made it all the way up to their then top dog Anthony Smith, who then wrote a lengthy and condescending letter to the passenger, rebutting almost all of the passenger's points. Sadly, most of the content of Anthony Smith's letter was wrong, and showed a total lack of understanding of the Routeing Guide, as the passenger was actually in the right.

Also, FoI and Data Protection Act SARs that I've seen show that they have a very cosy relationship with the TOCs and with ATOC. On numerous occasions, when a complaint about routeing has been made, instead of investigating things themselves, they have been shown to have just asked ATOC's view on what the validity is and then just parrotted this back to the passenger. They appear to belive anything ATOC says about routeing, and ATOC can construct some very misleading or downright false replies when it suits them.

Transport Focus don't care about the technicalities of whether you were in the right or not. They are more interested in getting passengers off the hook when they forget to buy a ticket or some other story that will put them in good light with the media. Try and get your escalated to David Sidebottom as he seems to be the most clued up employee they have who is the only one who is any good - however as he's now had a promotion in the new reorganisation I suspect he may not deal with individual cases any more.

 

[yorkie]

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To answer the question, I have found Transport Focus to be very unknowledgeable and dismissive. They do have some knowledgeable staff (notably David Sidebottom), but to actually get to speak to them is very difficult indeed.

To be honest I rarely bother pursuing matters because I know how pointless it is and I don't have the time to waste with them. I hope others can take them to task and campaign for real change and a proper watchdog with some genuine powers to do something!

 

[Starmill]

My experience of them is that they are totally useless. If you disagree with a TOC over your case and refer it to Transport Focus, they usually ask the relevant TOC what they think and just accept whatever they say, even if it's entirely at odds with the NRCoC. They then reply to you to this effect and that's it. You can't do anything else.

 

[47271]

I have no direct experience of TF other than occasionally threatening a TOC with a referral if they don't ginger up their handling of a case, and this appears to have been successful, but maybe this has been coincidental.

To compare it with a bank or phone company's response when they're threatened with their regulator when they mess me around. This always brings a swift and satisfactory response, but I believe that Ofcom or the Ombudsman have legal powers denied to PF, and that seems to be the problem.

So, anyone, for future reference, where does ORR sit in the escalation of customer cases? Who can properly punish a TOC for a truly dismal complaint and subsequent case handling?

My question is hypothetical, I've never got myself that angry, but just in case I am one day!

 

[Merseysider]

I've had a couple of dealings with PF. On one occasion, Northern were regularly refusing to sell me a specific ticket at one of their Greater Manchester stations, forcing me to buy a more expensive one, which was a breach of the TSA. It took three months for Passenger Focus to convince Northern to give me a single day's free travel so I'd shut up and go away. When it happened again, after I had been assured it wouldn't happen again, I went straight to Passenger Focus instead of raising the matter with Northern again knowing it'd simply go in circles like a merry go round. The cretin at PF dealing with my case tried to get me to attend a 'Meet the Manager' session in Wilmslow which upon asking Northern which manager would be going, it transpired the MtM session didn't actually exist, and PF may well have made it up or plucked a MtM date from 2012 by accident.

I just got the impression they couldn't give a toss. Either that, or they didn't know how to do their jobs.

My MP on the other hand was very proactive, so that is a route always worth consideration.

 

[bb21]

Clueless and toothless. I will leave it at that before I get myself worked up. I am already annoyed enough with VT this morning.

 

[Blindtraveler]

Absolutely blooming rubbish! Like BB21 i woant go much further other than to say that the 2nd (yes its happened twice) time Northerns RPI Thugs in Manchester gave me a £80 special after I traveled ticketless due to my disabilitty preventing me using a machine, TS were to say the least a huge waste of time and space and I woant be dealing with them again!

 

[Tetchytyke]

My experiences of Passenger/Transport Focus and London Travelwatch are variable.

I had an issue with Virgin Trains a few years ago, travelling on a NW rail rover from Warrington to Carlisle on a train (and journey) that was over an hour late due to a train defect. At the time the passenger charter promised all sorts of things, none of which were provided, and Virgin wouldn't provide compensation. I took it to Passenger Focus who asked Virgin really nicely and they still said no, so that was that.

I also had an issue with East Coast, who kept fobbing me off about a four hour delay due to defective signalling, where I was also stuck on a defective train with severe overcrowding. The delays were known about before we left London, but nobody warned us. I complained and they only gave me a 50% RTV compensation, so because of that I asked EC for complimentary first class tickets. I took it to Passenger Focus who, seemingly, did nothing with it; I had to complain a second time to PF and then EC promised the first class tickets. I had to complain a third time because EC never sent them, but eventually- ten months after the journey- I got the 100% RTV and two first class return tickets. PF eventually sorted it out, to their credit.

As for London Travelwatch, I don't think it is their fault but I've recently complained about London Midland failing to give Delay Repay. Nothing happened because London Midland have outright lied about the delay but London Travelwatch haven't questioned it or asked for evidence.

 

[Blindtraveler]

I guess London Travelwatch may have its uses however never found one yet as any issues I have are taken up with TFL who I find more than ready and willing to sort things without further escalation, no complaints here.

 

[oversteer]

I also had a bad experience with PF.
I question whether it is an organisation with any purpose and would be keen to see evidence to the contrary.

As a commuting rail user I am really disappointed with the lack of engagement offered to rail users and our complete inability to affect change. It seems that rail companies can run services to their own agenda and face minimal consequences in doing so, outside of some vague delay minutes attributions which often seems arbitrary at best.

Plenty of people complain on Twitter, for example, but very little happens as a result

I think in this digital age we should be able to group together and present a united front.

 

[Haywain]

Transport Focus are a government created body and exists to represent the interests of the transport industry's users. They do so as effectively as one might reasonably expect a government created body to do, particularly in their interaction with governement appointed franchise holders. More effective campaigning and results might be achieved by a specialised (rail) consumers organisation - it is astonishing that such an organisation does not exist.

 

[34D]

Transport Focus are a government created body and exists to represent the interests of the transport industry's users. They do so as effectively as one might reasonably expect a government created body to do, particularly in their interaction with governement appointed franchise holders. More effective campaigning and results might be achieved by a specialised (rail) consumers organisation - it is astonishing that such an organisation does not exist.

Arguably it would be this forum?

 

[Tetchytyke]

The fact Transport Focus are a government body is not an issue; the Financial Ombudsman Service is a government body yet they have real teeth and their decisions are binding on the financial services industry.

The problem is that the government haven't given Transport Focus any teeth. They can ask the TOC real nice, but if the TOC still say no (as they so often do) then that's the end of the matter.

 

[Haywain]

The fact Transport Focus are a government body is not an issue; the Financial Ombudsman Service is a government body yet they have real teeth and their decisions are binding on the financial services industry.

The problem is that the government haven't given Transport Focus any teeth. They can ask the TOC real nice, but if the TOC still say no (as they so often do) then that's the end of the matter.

The Financial Ombudsman Service does not deal with government appointed bodies, that is why it has real teeth. Transport Focus could be given the same level of power, but this would dilute the power held by the government over franchise holders which is why TF is not given that power.

 

[sheff1]

In my experience the Financial Ombudsman is pretty useless too. When I raised a complaint via them they used the opinion of the 'expert' who was contracted by the company I was in dispute with to reject my complaint. Rather like Transport Focus asking, and taking as gospel, the view of ATOC in a ticket routing dispute.

 

[gray1404]

I've found that when you make it clear to the bank that your going to go to the Ombudsman, it does make them start to take you seriously and resolve things. This I suspect is because they have to pay a set fee to the Ombudsman for every complaint heard relating to one of their customers. I believe this might be around £400 but I might be wrong. I wonder if anyone on here knows?

The point is though that this bill can be enough for the bank to settle your complaint and pay up/issue some compensation (or goodwill gesture). Where as with the TOCs, I do not believe there is any real reason for them not to want your complaint going to Transport Focus and I am not aware of them having to pay a fee each time a customer does so.

 

[oversteer]

I see that TF are also tasked with responsibility for local buses too.

How appropriate, an industry which is even more unaccountable and poorly run than trains are!

I wonder how much taxpayers money is directly or indirectly used up to run.

Also, why is there a separate organisation for London?

 

[infobleep]

The Financial Ombudsman Service does not deal with government appointed bodies, that is why it has real teeth. Transport Focus could be given the same level of power, but this would dilute the power held by the government over franchise holders which is why TF is not given that power.

Why would it dilute the power held by the government?

 

[island]

In my experience the Financial Ombudsman is pretty useless too. When I raised a complaint via them they used the opinion of the 'expert' who was contracted by the company I was in dispute with to reject my complaint. Rather like Transport Focus asking, and taking as gospel, the view of ATOC in a ticket routing dispute.

Did you appeal to an ombudsman? The adjudicators, who initially consider complaints, are a bit of a mixed bag. Ombudsmen are more senior and their decisions are published so they tend to take more care.

I've found that when you make it clear to the bank that your going to go to the Ombudsman, it does make them start to take you seriously and resolve things. This I suspect is because they have to pay a set fee to the Ombudsman for every complaint heard relating to one of their customers. I believe this might be around £400 but I might be wrong. I wonder if anyone on here knows?

It is £550 nowadays, charged for the 26th and subsequent complaint per firm per year.

 

[Tetchytyke]

FOS are very good for small-to-medium complaints, as gray1404 says, the threat of taking a bank to FOS often focuses a few minds. If your dispute is only over a relatively small sum of money, giving you the money may be cheaper for the bank than going to FOS. Professionally I've seen FOS make some very good decisions, but at the initial adjudicator stage it can be a mixed bag; most are good, but a couple are not.

Going to TF/London Travelwatch isn't the same threat, though. You can see that with some of my recent dealings with London Midland, who have outright lied about a Delay Repay voucher that would only have cost them a fiver to issue.

 

[319321]

Heres how they dealt with my complaint (so far - I'm not done yet).

Be warned - there are sixty pages!

 

[ainsworth74]

Discussion of 319321's issue can be found here.