Trains and the Rugby World Cup

[jimm]

RTT is currently showing trains to Paddington at 2200, 2229, 2243, 2300, 2325, 2334, 2341, 2348 (LHCS), 2355, 0013 (LHCS), 0020 and 0043. This appears to suggest they expect the rush to start as the match is finishing. Some of these could be on an "as required" basis, but this seems to answer some of the comments up the thread that GWR can't/won't/shouldn't do anything, and rugby fans should be left to their own devices to get home.

By contrast, as things stand tomorrow night the railway west of Didcot is effectively closing after the 2330 Paddington Bristol.

Tonight is the first RWC game in Cardiff that has kicked off at 8pm and will finish shortly before 10pm, so GWR and ATW (and XC with a 2217 extra to Birmingham) have, amazingly enough, planned accordingly.

After previous games they have had most of the late afternoon and/or evening to shift people - even if some people still seem to think they should be able to walk straight out of the stadium, on to a train and off back to London, never mind the 30-odd thousand other people also wanting to use the trains - but tonight the window is a lot smaller, hence that concentration of trains to London (and GWR is also running plenty to Bristol, as well as there being coaches).

Tonight the fans are on the doorstep of a station served by GWR, not needing to make their way from a stadium 10 miles away across a city/travel on another route to the first stop outside London as was the case last Saturday, when lots of TOCs other than GWR took the view that rugby fans should be left to their own devices if they lived more than about 60 miles from London.

Which is also going to be the case tomorrow, when that GWR 23.30 to Bristol is a regular timetabled long-distance train running almost two hours after Virgin's last West Midlands train has left Euston - same as any other Saturday night.

 

[richw]

On Pirate FM in Cornwall today, GWR have an advert that they have removed time restrictions on matchdays.

Seems GWR are doing a lot and may have learnt from previous games.

 

[bnm]

Seems GWR are doing a lot and may have learnt from previous games.

Indeed they have. I was speaking to someone very senior in GWR earlier this evening and he admitted, (privately - he knows who bnm is and where I post), that GWR got it seriously wrong last Saturday. That's regardless of where the game was held in London - fans heading home to Wales should have been much better catered for.

 

[jimm]

Indeed they have. I was speaking to someone very senior in GWR earlier this evening and he admitted, (privately - he knows who bnm is and where I post), that GWR got it seriously wrong last Saturday. That's regardless of where the game was held in London - fans heading home to Wales should have been much better catered for.

Wrong in what sense? Loss of face/bad publicity? Just as much risk of that happening by running trains in too small a number to cope with an entirely unpredictable number of passengers wanting to travel.

And what about all the England fans (and Wales fans living in England) heading home who could not get more than 60 miles from London on a train after the match last Saturday?

Oh, I keep forgetting, you don't care about them, because they are not being let down by GWR... I note your tasteful new signature. Do you really think that is appropriate in a public forum? Do the moderators?

Regardless of where the match was being held in London, there was, of course, other public transport available to Welsh supporters wanting to go home last Saturday - which did not involve a GWR train.

From a press release issued by National Express a month ago:

In areas where Rugby World Cup ticket sales are highest, there has been a big knock-on effect on coach ticket sales.

Cardiff to London is the most booked journey during the tournament with sales up 200 per cent year-on-year as rugby fans in Wales bag travel to key matches. This is followed by Bristol to London which has seen a 50 per cent increase in bookings and Leicester to London which has also seen a 50 per cent year-on-year increase in bookings during the World Cup.

http://www.nationalexpressgroup.com...arry-them-home-from-the-rugby-world-cup-2015/

I wonder why Cardiff-London was the most booked journey back at the end of August? Perhaps some people in Wales had noticed there weren't late trains planned back from London last Saturday and had acted accordingly weeks ago...

 

[D1009]

RTT is currently showing trains to Paddington at 2200, 2229, 2243, 2300, 2325, 2334, 2341, 2348 (LHCS), 2355, 0013 (LHCS), 0020 and 0043.

In the end nine of these trains ran, the other three were presumably not required and ran ECS.

 

[richw]

In the end nine of these trains ran, the other three were presumably not required and ran ECS.

4 ran ECS

 

[quarella]

If you were silly enough to travel on 1B42 arriving in CDF at 1622 potentially for 1645 start you deserved all you got
http://www.realtimetrains.co.uk/train/P00263/2015/10/01/advanced

Sometimes you don't have a choice. If only able to take a half day from a normal job, or even with my accommodating colleagues on a 1400 finish I think an hour is about the maximum I can ask them to come in early.

 

[HowardGWR]

I just wonder how it went at Newcastle yesterday. Did VTEC cope magnificently? (Did they bother to try and cope?)

 

[jimm]

I just wonder how it went at Newcastle yesterday. Did VTEC cope magnificently? (Did they bother to try and cope?)

No sign of any Z workings out of Newcastle last night from any operator.

A few samples from VXEC Twitter:

#RWC2015 - Access to Newcastle has been temporarily suspended to avoid over-crowding on the platforms #RSA v #SCO

@Virgin_TrainsEC good grief could you be any more disorganised? 50k people out of #newcastle for #rwc15 no more trains in?!?

Packed like sardines on the train back from Newcastle after rugby. @VirginTrains & @TPExpressTrains should have put on extra #EpicFail

Though the animal kingdom must take its share of the blame for pre-match problems:

Horses on the line between Darlington and Durham caused delays to trains on Saturday afternoon.

Major train operators Virgin, First Transpennine Express and Crosscountry all reported delays of up to 40 minutes to trains south of Newcastle due to animals on the line.

The incident happened at around 1.20pm and had knock-on effects to rugby fans heading north to Newcastle for the South Africa versus Scotland match.

http://www.chroniclelive.co.uk/news/north-east-news/rugby-world-cup-fans-heading-10187104

As well as the 50,900 in the stadium, the fanzone was full to capacity, with 10,000 in it and the police turning people away.

 

[D1009]

No sign of any Z workings out of Newcastle last night from any operator.

VTEC, TPE and Northern did run some additionals, mainly of a local nature. They tend to be F's and G's rather than Z's in that part of the world. It seems a fairly pathetic effort to me, though presumably there will be the usual excuses about engineering work and rolling stock availability.

 

[HowardGWR]

Thanks @Jimm. I read about the horses but assumed the fans on that 1250 ex KX still had plenty of time to sink a few pints before the game. Why is it that sports fans have to drink alcohol, without which the event cannot be enjoyed? The expression 'sports bar' always tickles me. With inadequate rail provision, one wonders how many went by car and travelled home, well under the influence.

Overall then, we can conclude that the Rugby World Cup was simply not catered for by the railways. Did the Rugby Union even bother to ask for such provision?

 

[87015]

Overall then, we can conclude that the Rugby World Cup was simply not catered for by the railways. Did the Rugby Union even bother to ask for such provision?

Yes, as said earlier they have been paying handsomely for additional trains and capacity.

 

[Mag_seven]

Last nights result may see a drop in the numbers passing through Manchester next Saturday.

 

[Class 170101]

I have my doubts as most of the tickets would have already been bought before the competition started. Most people will probably still go I would have thought, if only to boo at Stuart Lancaster for not resigning (so far).

 

[richw]

Last nights result may see a drop in the numbers passing through Manchester next Saturday.

No as already a sell out, with the cheapest tickets well over £100 each I don't see many people missing it! Maybe less visitors to the fanzones though.

 

[tony6499]

No as already a sell out, with the cheapest tickets well over £100 each I don't see many people missing it! Maybe less visitors to the fanzones though.

Will be interesting as those buying tickets didn't expect it to be a dead game with England out.

I think demand won't be nearly as high from now on.

 

[richw]

Will be interesting as those buying tickets didn't expect it to be a dead game with England out.

I think demand won't be nearly as high from now on.

I'm not so sure I agree with you on demand. The entire tournament is sold out. The majority are still going to use their tickets due to high amount of money involved.

I know quite a lot of English fans who have gone to other games for the whole world cup experience. I don't see that changing.

Tier 2 matches have sold out. This is unknown in rugby world cup history.
8 years ago when matches were held in France, Wales and Scotland, I went to a Tier 2 match with less than 33% capacity sold at £10 a ticket. This world cup Tier 2 matches have a 95% sold rate at £35 for the cheapest ticket.

I play rugby at level 9, and many people from my club got tickets for any game they could. This is a pattern in many of the other local clubs down here in Cornwall with members going to any game they could get their hands on.

 

[6Gman]

I'm not so sure I agree with you on demand. The entire tournament is sold out. The majority are still going to use their tickets due to high amount of money involved.

I know quite a lot of English fans who have gone to other games for the whole world cup experience. I don't see that changing.

Tier 2 matches have sold out. This is unknown in rugby world cup history.
8 years ago when matches were held in France, Wales and Scotland, I went to a Tier 2 match with less than 33% capacity sold at £10 a ticket. This world cup Tier 2 matches have a 95% sold rate at £35 for the cheapest ticket.

I play rugby at level 9, and many people from my club got tickets for any game they could. This is a pattern in many of the other local clubs down here in Cornwall with members going to any game they could get their hands on.

A friend of mine was telling me that his sister and nephew were coming over to Britain just to see RWC matches (though they are not particular rugby fans, they just enjoy the atmosphere). She is coming from Brazil; her son from the USA.

 

[craigybagel]

It's been noticeable recently on my trains at least that there have been a lot more Britrail pass holders than normal, mostly from rugby playing countries.

Next Saturday is going to be interesting. I'm meant to be off but I've volunteered for rest day work, I'm hoping to work through Manchester just to see what it's like when Old Trafford and the Etihad sell out on the same day.....

 

[Stonesourscotty]

i know people that have flogged their union tickets for wigan v leeds and got tickets for boxing at the arena for less than the cost of the union same freinds are already in bury to watch wigan athletic play that day so the metrolink may be busy too

 

[WelshBluebird]

I'm not so sure I agree with you on demand. The entire tournament is sold out. The majority are still going to use their tickets due to high amount of money involved.

I know quite a lot of English fans who have gone to other games for the whole world cup experience. I don't see that changing.

Tier 2 matches have sold out. This is unknown in rugby world cup history.
8 years ago when matches were held in France, Wales and Scotland, I went to a Tier 2 match with less than 33% capacity sold at £10 a ticket. This world cup Tier 2 matches have a 95% sold rate at £35 for the cheapest ticket.

I play rugby at level 9, and many people from my club got tickets for any game they could. This is a pattern in many of the other local clubs down here in Cornwall with members going to any game they could get their hands on.

Indeed I'd no doubt echo this.
After Wednesday I would have gone to two games not involving my country (Wales). For no other reason than why not its the bloody world cup! The friend I've been going with plays Rugby for a small team (probably lower level than you! haha) and he is going to a few more games too, none of which even had the chance of involving England and is going to the Final. And many people from his club are doing similar things.

And again, dead on with the tier 2 games selling out. I remember Argentina v Japan in Cardiff in 99, me and my old man got tickets for around £15 in total on the day of the game. This world cup you'd have no chance getting them as cheap on the day like we did. That is partly because of the stadiums the games are being played in but also partly because it does feel like the tournament has captured people in a way a Rugby world cup hasn't before (in that it is still Rugby fans going, but this time it doesn't matter who is playing as much as just being there).

 

[island]

VTEC, TPE and Northern did run some additionals, mainly of a local nature. They tend to be F's and G's rather than Z's in that part of the world. It seems a fairly pathetic effort to me, though presumably there will be the usual excuses about engineering work and rolling stock availability.

It cannot be fair to dismiss out of hand as "the usual excuse" the fact that the TOCs do not have limitless (or even modest numbers of) spare trainsets. There is no secret magic siding where dozens of trainsets are parked up to be called into action four times a year in case of a major event. It would be an appalling use of capital and the ROSCOs' management would (rightly) be facing the sack.

 

[DarloRich]

Will be interesting as those buying tickets didn't expect it to be a dead game with England out.

I think demand won't be nearly as high from now on.

if you have paid for tickets, travel, accommodation etc you are still going to go surely. It is a world cup, it wont be in England again for a long time.

 

[HowardGWR]

This, apart from any other info we obtained on this thread, would seem to be an attempt to set the record about the Cardiff services straight, by a responsible eye witness reporter in Wales Online.

http://www.walesonline.co.uk/busine...spite-critics-cardiff-central-train-10203065?

Despite the critics Cardiff Central Train Station has so far put in a pretty impressive Rugby World Cup performance

note particularly the remarks about Bristol Parkway pax.

'Some however did not plan, and it was those whose complaints were the loudest but the least justifiable'
A ‘sweeper’ (vintage relief) train came into Cardiff just after 2.30 last Friday with only 20% of the seats taken, followed by a crowded InterCity train whose passengers had chosen the latter’s shorter journey time. Both sets of passengers had the right expectations of what the railway can provide and planned their journeys to enable refreshments and a view of our capital before the game.

Some however did not plan, and it was those whose complaints were the loudest but the least justifiable. For those travellers arriving into Cardiff on trains 20 minutes before kick–off the passenger expectations should have been those of peak trains that would be full and standing (as with commuter trains) and not as comfortable as earlier trains.

The whole article is well worth reading.

 

[Stonesourscotty]

Update on the League game at Old Trafford that day it's now confirmed a Sell out (teams only confirmed on friday) and Northern havn't confirmed to me if Extras to Old Trafford will run

 

[Antman]

if you have paid for tickets, travel, accommodation etc you are still going to go surely. It is a world cup, it wont be in England again for a long time.

It's a world cup game in name only, little more than a friendly in practice. Not sure I'd go although I wouldn't have paid ridiculous prices for tickets in the first place

 

[jimm]

Update on the League game at Old Trafford that day it's now confirmed a Sell out (teams only confirmed on friday) and Northern havn't confirmed to me if Extras to Old Trafford will run

Even if they do, it will presumably only be the usual shuttle-type service. The key issue on the railways and roads is going to be the sheer number of people trying to travel in and out of Manchester on the day.

 

[StarCrossing]

This, apart from any other info we obtained on this thread, would seem to be an attempt to set the record straight

I'd say it gives another point of view rather than sets the record straight. Many people didn't choose to arrive 20 minutes before the start. Many, including friends of mine, arrived at that time because they'd been queuing for hours (at Temple Meads in this case).

The 'sweeper trains' were a great idea, but there was no information given about them. Therefore, passengers were stuck in queues at Bristol Parkway, watching one HST after another coming through full and standing, without being told how or when they were going to be able to travel. It was a real shame because the railway really did well to put on these trains, but the information at the stations was lacking. The taxi drivers made a killing.

So, a few problems in getting to Cardiff, getting back on the other hand...

After the games on Thursday and Friday, the team at Cardiff really upped their game. Information screens, announcements, more barriers, even people giving out sweets! Great effort! The train I came back on after Thursday's game was something like 3x150s and a 153. I've never seen anything like that in the Cardiff and Bristol area before, and it simply swallowed up the queue .

 

[PHILIPE]

Understand DRS have pulled out of the final 3 games in Cardiff, reason unknown. Will be HSTs in lieu, but I doubt they will be provided unless regular services go to the wall.

 

[chiltern trev]

Interested to know how many posters on this thread are rugby fans as in go to occasional matches or have season tickets?

We lived in Bucks and had season tickets for Wasps. We now live near Carlisle.

Most rugby fans we know tried to book tickets for many matches as the Rugby World Cup does not come around often.

We applied for all the Newcastle games (3 games) and got one - Samoa vs. Scotland coming up on Saturday 10th October.

Our son and his wife, live in Bucks and did live in Brighton so they went to both the Brighton week-end matches which included Japan beating South Africa. We have a friend who is now on match 19 including warms ups and friendlies.

A lot of tickets went in the first application round with many games sold out. And watching the games on TV any match not being totally sold out is less than 3k below the official ground capacities. Some sell outs appear to be short of the official capacity which we put down to capacity being changed for the Rugby World Cup for whatever reason.

Also the Olympics, Paralympics and Glasgow Commonwealth Games also sold very well - so the UK support sporting events in a massive way. At the winning 2003 rugby world cup final in Australia, over half the 80k crowd were British despite the official allocation being about 10k. For the Commonwealth Games we applied for all 4 rugby 7s sessions and got all 4 sessions - and all the rugby 7s were sold out - so Ibrox capacity of 44k+ x 4 tickets sold - a huge success and excellent week-end.

Trains to Newcastle. Last week-end a friend dropped their daughter off at Haltwhistle. The train to Newcastle (Carlisle<>Newcastle line) was ok. The return trip after the match - there was an extra carriage and the train was full and standing. The A69 to Haltwhistle was also solid with traffic going to Newcastle. The A69 Carlisle<>Newcastle road is a single carriageway Carlisle <>Hexham and dual carriageway Hexham<>Newcastle.

Re extra trains for Newcastle by East Coast, I include a link and details from 17 July at the end of this post. The East Coast changes mainly comprise KX<>Leeds trains being extended to/from Newcastle and KX<>Newcastle trains being extended to/from Edinburgh.

Re Wales fans not being able to get home after 20.00 kick-off England vs. Wales at Twickenham. The first comment from several fans we know in England was 'O what a shame - boot on the other foot this time' - note that Wales home matches invariably are 20.00 at Cardiff which means the away fans have a get home problem - so a change for it to be the other way round.

We have been to Twickenham 15-20 times for Premiership and European finals (sell outs) and London Double Headers (about 60k). Usually getting home is not a problem as the latest finish was about 19.30. A lots of fans stay at he ground for drinks, meet friends, etc so the dispersal rate via Twickenham station is spread. Not the same for a 20.00 kick off with 22.00 finish - one big rush all at once.

South West trains do a good job. On match days platform 1 is out bound, platform 2 is not used for trains but passengers waiting for outbound platform 1 trains (platforms 1 and 2 being an island platform). Usually platform 2 is for fast London bound trains. Platform 3 is London (all trains) and platform 4 has a train stabled all the time (prevent fans falling on the track?) and used as space for fans waiting for platform 3 trains (platforms 3 and 4 being an island platform). All trains are 8 cars and extra Waterloo <> Twickenham trains are put on before and after the match - these all appear to travel out via the Hounslow loop and back via the direct line. The maximum throughput to London is about 1 train every 5 minutes due to the dwell time at Twickenham (trains slowly approaching and long time to load). If a visiting team is from Reading area or the West Country, then the Reading frequency is doubled. After a match there is very effective queue management - passengers for London enter via the car park (which is closed for the day) and all others use the nomarl station entrance. The queue signs first appear about 600yds from the station on the lampposts - one side of the road for London the other side of the road for elsewhere. The road between Twickenham stadium to and past the station and overbridge is usually closed for at least 1 hour before and after a match when the peak fan arrival/departure time is as the fans takeover the entire road. On our first 3 visits we travelled via Waterloo - now our norm is to park a Datchet and get a Windsor line train - much less hassle and whilst reasonably full and comfortable they are not a full and standing uncomfortable crush load - but you need to know and research the alternatives.

We have been to Cardiff twice for Anglo/Welsh cup semi final double headers (50k-60k). Going to Cardiff is a nightmare even without a late kick-off - due to the M4 and it's Newport tunnels or capacity on Paddington<>Cardiff. And with the diversity of the fans attending there will have been a much different mix of where the fans are travelling to and from.

Why do some TOCs get caught out by these surprises? It should be obvious that even with the best planning there is a high risk of big surprises. Yes, the organisers will have tickets sales breakdowns by post code for each match, but there will be a good few instances of where the user of a ticket is not the ticket buyer and thus the post code 'allocation' information will be less accurate. Families and friends will have one person buying up to 8 tickets to then spread out.

If you were on the Rugby World Cup email list, you will probably have received a travel survey email. I go one about 2 months ago and you were asked to complete the survey to indicate how you were expecting to travel to a match and from where - so some more indications into the mix. I say indications, as it was 2 months away from a match not everyone knows how they will be getting there. We have not decided yet - could be train from Haltwhistle or use a park and ride (Newcastle Falcons ground and Metro perhaps) so I ticked the train box knowing this has a limited capacity.

Re the post showing all the ATW alterations, various train length changes etc to free up units for service to/from Cardiff which included affecting North Wales. When there is an evening match at Wembley with a full house, Chiltern run a shuttle service every 20 minutes Marylebone<>Wembley Stadium which requires 2 x (2 x 2 car 165) (8 cars total). As the normal pm peak has everything available in use, there are about 10-15 regular service alterations - shortening trains, a cancellation or two, extra stops, less stops, change of destination, etc - which eventually results in the 4 units being free. The full list of service changes is published 1 week in advance, is clearly displayed everywhere and all the regulars are used to it and plan accordingly and does not appear to result in complaints.

----East Coast info----

https://www.virgintrainseastcoast.c...p-2015-tackle-your-travel-plans-early-1193438

Published 17 July 2015

The following additional and extended train services (times and calling points in italics) will be provided for supporters travelling to fixtures in Leeds and Newcastle (kick-off times in brackets):

• Italy v Canada, Elland Road Stadium, Leeds, Saturday 26 September (14.30):

Additional 17.22 Leeds to Edinburgh service, calling at York, Darlington, Durham, Newcastle, Berwick-upon-Tweed, Dunbar and arriving Edinburgh 20.51

• Scotland v USA, Elland Road Stadium, Leeds, Sunday 27 September (14.30):

Additional 10.15 Edinburgh to Leeds service, calling at Dunbar, Berwick-upon-Tweed, Newcastle, Durham, Darlington and York and arriving Leeds 13.21

Additional 17.16 Leeds to Edinburgh service, calling at York, Darlington, Newcastle and Berwick-upon-Tweed and arriving Edinburgh 20.26

• South Africa v Scotland, St James’ Park, Newcastle, Saturday 3 October (16.45):

Additional 13.05 Edinburgh to Newcastle service, calling at Dunbar and Berwick-upon-Tweed and arriving Newcastle 14.35

18.30 Edinburgh to Newcastle service extended to depart Newcastle 20.00, calling at Durham, Darlington, York, Doncaster and Peterborough and arriving London King’s Cross 23.11

17.30 London King’s Cross to Newcastle extended to depart Newcastle 20.41 and non-stop to arrive Edinburgh 22.20

18.30 London King’s Cross to Newcastle extended to depart Newcastle 21.43 and non-stop to arrive Edinburgh 23.10

• New Zealand v Tonga, St James’ Park, Newcastle, Friday 9 October (20.00):

19.00 London King’s Cross to Edinburgh retimed to depart Newcastle later at 22.10, calling at Berwick-upon-Tweed and to arrive Edinburgh 23.46

20.00 London King’s Cross to Newcastle extended to depart Newcastle at 22.58 and non-stop to arrive Edinburgh 00.24

Additional 22.13 Newcastle to London King’s Cross service, calling at York, Peterborough and arriving London King’s Cross 01.34

Additional 22.22 Newcastle to London King’s Cross service, calling at Durham, Darlington, York, Doncaster, Retford, Newark North Gate, Grantham and Peterborough and arriving London King’s Cross 01.53

Additional 22.35 Newcastle to York service, calling at Durham and Darlington and arriving York 23.46.

----end----