Passengers detrain themselves in Bristol area (26/09)

[Taunton]

If the train was that crowded why did they board it?

Why this constant comment? Presumably the people from Avonmouth or Shirehampton boarded the train when it was reasonably loaded, and possible even paid a fare if the Gripper could be bothered to come round. Then at Clifton Down another 200 get on.

If one of these people had been ploughed over by another train and seriously hurt or killed then the media and the families would have been all over the railway as to why it was allowed to happen.

And rightly so too. I don't think you would get very far with the media saying the train was dispatched from a platform just so GWR can stick the delay minutes on somebody else.

GWR/FGW do have two guards/conductors/RPIs? on most services meaning that one can do the doors while the other collects fares. Otherwise there would be no chance at all of getting any money.

You have to wonder what these two were doing during the 25 minutes the train was stopped.

If GWR want to run a local service where passenger journeys can be just a few minutes, it is for them to put an adequate, and adequately staffed, fare collection system together to collect their money rather than unstaffed stations and trains so short that their revenue staff can't get through. In the old days of town buses with conductors and many people just doing journeys of a few minutes, they still managed to get most if not all the fares in - how come the Severn Beach line seems to have the reputation of nobody ever coming round for the money? Why were staff with ticket machines not sent out to the key stations on this day? Things have obviously moved on from the 1980s when the line was a Bubble Car single unit and maybe 6 passengers - half of them with Priv tickets.

 

[Llanigraham]

Why were staff with ticket machines not sent out to the key stations on this day?

If the organisers of this Event didn't bother to notify the train company how were they expected to know to do this?
Blame the organisers not the railway!

 

[ooo]

Which is exactly why it makes sense longer term to at least consider transferring door controls to drivers on some of these type of services

I'm sure many would disagree with this, but the Severn Beach Line would be better under DOO for this reason.

 

[bb21]

Can we keep DOO discussions off this thread please. If anyone wishes to discuss the pros and cons of DOO, please use one of many existing threads.

 

[father_jack]

Why this constant comment? Presumably the people from Avonmouth or Shirehampton boarded the train when it was reasonably loaded, and possible even paid a fare if the Gripper could be bothered to come round. Then at Clifton Down another 200 get on.

And rightly so too. I don't think you would get very far with the media saying the train was dispatched from a platform just so GWR can stick the delay minutes on somebody else.

You have to wonder what these two were doing during the 25 minutes the train was stopped.

If GWR want to run a local service where passenger journeys can be just a few minutes, it is for them to put an adequate, and adequately staffed, fare collection system together to collect their money rather than unstaffed stations and trains so short that their revenue staff can't get through. In the old days of town buses with conductors and many people just doing journeys of a few minutes, they still managed to get most if not all the fares in - how come the Severn Beach line seems to have the reputation of nobody ever coming round for the money? Why were staff with ticket machines not sent out to the key stations on this day? Things have obviously moved on from the 1980s when the line was a Bubble Car single unit and maybe 6 passengers - half of them with Priv tickets.

deleted

 

[HowardGWR]

I don't see how GWR can do much about the 'event' problem on this line. As I wrote earlier, as franchised from DFT to GWR, and as part subsidised in the past by WEP councils, (actually it was only BCC who picked up the tab IIRC), GWR has had, essentially, to work with the resources it is allowed.

The encouraging plans for Metro West need a step change in quality and quantity of provision. I am not sure that this is going to be the case, as things stand. A 'metro' service turns on a 'turn up and go' expectation from the public. I read the Bristol press and the articles in there about the expected new services are very bullish.

 

[swj99]

I agree. I think another factor could be that people don't have faith in the railways (or other institutions) to be able to handle a situation. My mind thinks back to 2009 when Eurostar trains were stuck in the channel tunnel due to cold weather / snow affecting the electrics. There was a genuine problem, but trains were left stranded even though there are rescue locos positioned at each end of the tunnel. Each incident like this gives the perception in my mind that the railways are not capable of handling an incident. So, if I had been in that train I would be wondering - leave the train, which is wrong, or sit waiting for the railway to try and figure out what to do. I think I would have got off, and got off the line as soon as I found a way off. Not ideal, but I'm just saying, my perception is that the railway isn't as resourced or skilled as it might have been in the past. Maybe that perception is wrong, but the passenger, customer, has to decide what to do, and if no one is coming to help, they might well decide to help themselves.

Totally agree.

........Generally the railway seem very poor at assisting passengers when the service goes up the spout. You see that every time there's a signalling failure in London; they'll leave trains 200 yards from a platform for hours at a time, and then act all indignant when passengers let themselves off.........

Exactly. The reality is simply that people will get off trains that are going nowhere, unless the TOC deals proactively with the incident, and is seen to be doing so.

This bit of industry in-fighting, which is the main reason all these people were out on the track instead of able to alight back onto Clifton Down platform, just needs to come to the attention of the RAIB and/or Patrick McLoughlin, who between them can go and whack some heads together in the delay accountants' offices.

That's if the Daily Telegraph doesn't get there first.

An Uncontrolled Evacuation is what happens when a TOC fails to handle a situation correctly, and I can't help thinking similar events will continue to happen until TOCs act to restore faith in their ability to properly deal with such incidents.

 

[D1009]

I don't see how GWR can do much about the 'event' problem on this line.

Put in crowd control, as at Digby and Sowton on match days at Sandy Park?

 

[6Gman]

Put in crowd control, as at Digby and Sowton on match days at Sandy Park?

But had the promoters of the Bristol event spoken to FGW/GWR?

 

[PHILIPE]

But had the promoters of the Bristol event spoken to FGW/GWR?

I doubt it would have even entered their heads.

 

[D1009]

Even if they did know about the event, as I mentioned earlier it wouldn't have been obvious that so many people would use the railway. I'm sure GWR management are taking this incident seriously, and next time there is an event like that there, I think they at least will have RPI's and BTP at Clifton Down and other places.

 

[Parallel]

In the week, there are usually two members of staff that can collect fares - usually a ticket examiner and a guard. On weekends, I guess it varies, however last time I used the Severn Beach line on a Saturday it had just a guard. He was trying to sell fares but had to advise passengers who were going to Temple Meads to buy their tickets there.

On a couple of occasions during trips along the line, I've noticed that the ticket examiner has left the train at Redland and preceded to sell tickets on the platform.

It does make me wonder, if a staff member is standing on the platform selling tickets, these busier stations may as well have a ticket office, or at least a TVM...

Saying that, will GWR regularly maintain them? The new ones at Trowbridge have been there for a few months now and still say "Out Of Service".

 

[455driver]

It does make me wonder, if a staff member is standing on the platform selling tickets, these busier stations may as well have a ticket office, or at least a TVM...

Vandalism is rife on that line, the TVM wouldn't last 5 minutes.

Saying that, will GWR regularly maintain them? The new ones at Trowbridge have been there for a few months now and still say "Out Of Service".

Has it been OOS the whole time or has it been repaired and vandalised again almost immediately?
Are you 100% sure?
--- old post above --- --- new post below ---

Yep - this.

The fine imposed for the Kentish Town fiasco (in which the train eventually moved off *with pax on the track alongside and the doors open*) was £100k, and no senior staff members careers were impacted. There is no incentive on the railways to improve.

The self important passenger is learning to de-train himself at the first sign of trouble.

Edited for accuracy!

 

[Parallel]

Has it been OOS the whole time or has it been repaired and vandalised again almost immediately?

Nope, they were switched off after they were installed, but for the last month or so they've been switched on but still say 'Out Of Service'. Might be that they were meant to be card only (as to deter vandalism) but were installed as 'cash and card'. The one at Melksham doesn't seem to have been switched on yet and the one at Bradford On Avon was out of service a couple of days ago though I haven't looked since (The latter's not a new machine).

I understand the ex-station buildings at Clifton Down now house a pub - Would the building on Redland's platform be able to house a ticket office? I realise that to GWR having a member of staff stood on the platform all day selling tickets is probably more appealing than installing a new ticket office... I think a local business occupies the building at Montpelier.

 

[Chris M]

Some simple things would help: ensure that every train has a working PA system that is audible and intelligible in real world carriage environments. Ensure that passengers are told what is happening, and then kept updated throughout the incident - even if you have no new information a message every 10-15 minutes to let passengers know they haven't been forgotten will relieve the pressure.

Start working out how you will evacuate people before you need to. If you need assistance to have space on the platform to evacuate people to but it will take 40 minutes for the assistance to arrive - call them 40 minutes before you need to start evacuating. And tell the passengers that you are continuing to try and fix the problem but you are also making arrangements so that they will be sat there for only another 45 minutes at most.

Passengers will sit for far less time than it seems the railway industry appreciates. Work with professionals in human psychology to determine evacuation time thresholds. In hot weather people will wait less time than in cold weather. They will wait less time if they can see a station than if they can't. They will wait longer on intercity journeys than on local journeys - if you know it's 30 minutes by train to the next station you'll sit longer than if you know it's only 3 minutes.

Passengers will probably get impatient sooner if they can see other trains running than if they can't.

Make the train environment as comfortable as possible while people are stuck - open windows in hot weather if you can for example.

If you have people on board who can understand the situation (might be off-duty rail staff, enthusiasts, etc) give them details and they can help you pass on information to others. (I once got a heart-felt thankyou from staff at Canning Town for helping them disseminate information to people who were constantly asking questions during a period of disruption).

And if people do start to self detrain, work with them so that they do so as safely as possible. If you see people about to self-detrain, start implementing your official detrainment ASAP.

I don't care if you are the world's best guard/whatever, incidents like this demonstrate that the systems the railway industry have a the moment are wrong, and if the railway industry refuses to listen to the views of passengers then they will continue to be wrong.

 

[455driver]

Maybe the nasty, horrible railway should start putting a limit on the number of passengers allowed on each carriage, that would solve the 'dangerous' <yawn> overcrowding problems!

Anyone want to volunteer to tell the p-ssheads on a Friday night they cant get on the train because it is at its maximum capacity?

 

[TUC]

Whatever the rights and wrongs of passengers detraining themselves, simply announcing midjourney that a train is not stopping without arrnging assistance shows a complete disregard for wider passenger safety. What if there was a child on board whom the parents allow to travel on a familiar journey (or a visually impaired passenger who knew the route home from their local station) but would have been totally lost by a different sation even if only a short distance away?

 

[Tomnick]

Whatever the rights and wrongs of passengers detraining themselves, simply announcing midjourney that a train is not stopping without arrnging assistance shows a complete disregard for wider passenger safety. What if there was a child on board whom the parents allow to travel on a familiar journey (or a visually impaired passenger who knew the route home from their local station) but would have been totally lost by a different sation even if only a short distance away?

Because allowing said child to alight onto a dangerously overcrowded platform, to get lost or crushed in the crowd, would be so much safer?

 

[infobleep]

Maybe the nasty, horrible railway should start putting a limit on the number of passengers allowed on each carriage, that would solve the 'dangerous' <yawn> overcrowding problems!

Anyone want to volunteer to tell the p-ssheads on a Friday night they cant get on the train because it is at its maximum capacity?

Even better, don't run any trains then there's nothing to be overcrowded! Haha.

 

[Bletchleyite]

Because allowing said child to alight onto a dangerously overcrowded platform, to get lost or crushed in the crowd, would be so much safer?

Children are, generally, incredibly resilient. Any child travelling alone on that train (who was felt to be old enough to travel alone) most probably either thought nothing of it or thought it quite interesting/exciting.

 

[bb21]

Children are, generally, incredibly resilient. Any child travelling alone on that train (who was felt to be old enough to travel alone) most probably either thought nothing of it or thought it quite interesting/exciting.

Looking at available photos, the level of overcrowding is nothing compared to the buses I used to get to school when I was about 10. I occasionally sat on the conductor's lap with my bag on his/her table to allow more adults to squeeze on.

 

[Dave1987]

Some simple things would help: ensure that every train has a working PA system that is audible and intelligible in real world carriage environments. Ensure that passengers are told what is happening, and then kept updated throughout the incident - even if you have no new information a message every 10-15 minutes to let passengers know they haven't been forgotten will relieve the pressure.

Start working out how you will evacuate people before you need to. If you need assistance to have space on the platform to evacuate people to but it will take 40 minutes for the assistance to arrive - call them 40 minutes before you need to start evacuating. And tell the passengers that you are continuing to try and fix the problem but you are also making arrangements so that they will be sat there for only another 45 minutes at most.

Passengers will sit for far less time than it seems the railway industry appreciates. Work with professionals in human psychology to determine evacuation time thresholds. In hot weather people will wait less time than in cold weather. They will wait less time if they can see a station than if they can't. They will wait longer on intercity journeys than on local journeys - if you know it's 30 minutes by train to the next station you'll sit longer than if you know it's only 3 minutes.

Passengers will probably get impatient sooner if they can see other trains running than if they can't.

Make the train environment as comfortable as possible while people are stuck - open windows in hot weather if you can for example.

If you have people on board who can understand the situation (might be off-duty rail staff, enthusiasts, etc) give them details and they can help you pass on information to others. (I once got a heart-felt thankyou from staff at Canning Town for helping them disseminate information to people who were constantly asking questions during a period of disruption).

And if people do start to self detrain, work with them so that they do so as safely as possible. If you see people about to self-detrain, start implementing your official detrainment ASAP.

I don't care if you are the world's best guard/whatever, incidents like this demonstrate that the systems the railway industry have a the moment are wrong, and if the railway industry refuses to listen to the views of passengers then they will continue to be wrong.

Sorry but this is totally and completely the wrong way of thinking about this. A controlled evacuation takes a lot of pieces to be in place before it can happen. Not least of the authorisation from NR, blocks and isolations, protection arrangements etc etc. As a driver or a guard you can't just say 'my passengers have decided to pull the egress handles so I will go along with it'. There would be anarchy with people pulling handles because the train is at a stand and they are next to their back garden. Need to make it clear that the situation was unacceptable but the actions of the passengers was also unacceptable.

 

[Tetchytyke]

First. The method of working on a down train at Clifton Down is to leave to time but if the up train is late it's 6 on the buzzer- move up to the signal at the end of the loop. If the train waits in the platform any subsequent delay minutes are GWRs, if out on the track they're NRs.

And these two paragraphs sums up everything that's wrong with the fragmented railway industry we have.

Put simply, if that train has stayed in the platform then this issue wouldn't have happened. But because GWR and NR are in a perpetual peeing contest as to who is to "blame", you get something like this. And I'll bet the delay cost to GWR will be a heck of a lot bigger than if the train had stayed in the platform.
--- old post above --- --- new post below ---

There would be anarchy with people pulling handles because the train is at a stand and they are next to their back garden.

I highly doubt it.

There are issues already where passengers will de-train if they have been stuck for long periods of time close to a station, especially where the trains are hot and overcrowded. Understanding that this will happen, and taking steps to mitigate the risk of it, is far better than simply getting some GWR spokesman out to wibble about how the passengers are "disgraceful" for not putting up with it.

It happens far too often. I've been stuck on a train for 60 minutes 100 yards outside Newcastle station because all the platforms were full of trains abandoned by drivers who were "out of hours" and nobody had the intelligence or organisation to move them. I'll tell you this right now: regardless of the law, if that had gone on ten more minutes I'd have got out and walked.

We saw it recently with a signal failure at London Bridge, one train (without toilets) was stuck between Bermondsey and London Bridge for nearly two hours. And then everyone acts surprised when passengers get fed up and get out and walk?

 

[NX]

This is what happened....

The train which was travelling towards Bristol was the usual two passengers short of empty prior to arrival at Clifton Down.

There are NO permit to travel, nor ticket machines on any station on the Branch due to repeated theft.

The service from Bristol to Avonmouth reported hugely overcrowded platforms at stations towards Montplier, a decision was made to issue not to call orders for the incident train for Redland and Montpilar due to the train being extremely overcrowded at Clifton.

When the Avommouth train arrived at Redladn ASB occurred which delayed its progress towards Clifton.

The usual process for Bristol bound trains is to wait time at Clifton then draw down to the single line protecting signal, when the service is running RT they usually pass before a signal stop is needed.

However thanks to the ASB of the people (not passengers, as they've not paid) at Redland the signal stop was extended, not usual for Bristol services to be at a stand for five minutes.

The guard on the incident train made the usual announcement, and further explained that due to overcrowding at Redland the train would not call, passengers should change at Montpiler. For their own safety as you could physically not fit anymore people on the train.

During the signal stop, attempts where made to access both the front and rear cabs (150/1).

After a period of time someone within the train decided to force open the train doors and alight onto the still 'live' running line.

This of course was seen as some kind of 'revolution' among the student types so the trickle became a flood.

Emergency call put out and the Avonmouth line was blocked, with the next train just leaving Redland.

Both crew members remained on train for their own safety as they were threatened and abused throughout the incident.

BTP called and deal with the incident.

The service was suspended for several hours until the situation could be brought under control.

We aren't taking about an hour in a sealed no AC train, we have 5-10 minutes with information as to why.

The crew, police and company did well. Shame can't be said for the people who had mo regard for their won safety nor the law of the land.

NX

 

[thelongestroad]

First. The method of working on a down train at Clifton Down is to leave to time but if the up train is late it's 6 on the buzzer- move up to the signal at the end of the loop. If the train waits in the platform any subsequent delay minutes are GWRs, if out on the track they're NRs.

I've never ever heard of that method of working. It's always 2 on the buzzer right time at Clifton and we go to Refland or wait at the signal. You can't see the banner repeater or signal from Clifton.

 

[WelshBluebird]

not passengers, as they've not paid

Not sure what that slight dig is about. They hadn't even had a chance to pay!

We aren't taking about an hour in a sealed no AC train, we have 5-10 minutes with information as to why.

What the announcement actually audible through the train though? I have been on quite a few 150's where the PA was either simply broken or not loud enough for people to hear what was being said. It is entirely possible that the passengers simply did not know what was being announced or maybe just caught part of the announcment (probably the "we are being delayed" part!). Not of that justifies the behaviour mind you.

 

[bramling]

This is what happened....

The train which was travelling towards Bristol was the usual two passengers short of empty prior to arrival at Clifton Down.

There are NO permit to travel, nor ticket machines on any station on the Branch due to repeated theft.

The service from Bristol to Avonmouth reported hugely overcrowded platforms at stations towards Montplier, a decision was made to issue not to call orders for the incident train for Redland and Montpilar due to the train being extremely overcrowded at Clifton.

When the Avommouth train arrived at Redladn ASB occurred which delayed its progress towards Clifton.

The usual process for Bristol bound trains is to wait time at Clifton then draw down to the single line protecting signal, when the service is running RT they usually pass before a signal stop is needed.

However thanks to the ASB of the people (not passengers, as they've not paid) at Redland the signal stop was extended, not usual for Bristol services to be at a stand for five minutes.

The guard on the incident train made the usual announcement, and further explained that due to overcrowding at Redland the train would not call, passengers should change at Montpiler. For their own safety as you could physically not fit anymore people on the train.

During the signal stop, attempts where made to access both the front and rear cabs (150/1).

After a period of time someone within the train decided to force open the train doors and alight onto the still 'live' running line.

This of course was seen as some kind of 'revolution' among the student types so the trickle became a flood.

Emergency call put out and the Avonmouth line was blocked, with the next train just leaving Redland.

Both crew members remained on train for their own safety as they were threatened and abused throughout the incident.

BTP called and deal with the incident.

The service was suspended for several hours until the situation could be brought under control.

We aren't taking about an hour in a sealed no AC train, we have 5-10 minutes with information as to why.

The crew, police and company did well. Shame can't be said for the people who had mo regard for their won safety nor the law of the land.

NX

So basically totally the fault of the passengers.

Do we know from which side of the train the trespassers alighted from? If they alighted onto the adjacent line then that would have been exceedingly stupid, and they were fortunate not to have placed themselves right into the path of the other train.

Feel sorry for the train staff on this one, a difficult situation to deal with.

 

[Bletchleyite]

Yes, this account certainly changes my view on the situation. However, the railway do have to deal with "bad" passengers, and the larger-scale disruption would have been avoided by remaining in the platform until the signal cleared, albeit at the expense of possibly losing a minute or two in other situations.

Generally, if there is an option to be in a platform with doors open during a delay of any length, that is to me best.

 

[Tetchytyke]

...if it's an accurate version of events. For one thing, I'd be impressed if passengers were "trying to get into the cab" as that would mean- on a 150/1- that they'd already broken in to the secure vestibule and were breaking a second door.

I suspect the truth is more that, due to the overcrowding, people were trying to get a bit more space for themselves. I've seen passengers do it on the 313s before. Inexcusable, but a little bit different from getting in the cab and decking the driver.

As for "abuse", I'm sure passengers will have been effing and blinding at being stuck on an overcrowded train for no good reason.

As I've said, I think trying to blame either the TOC or the passengers is misguided. What happened is a combination of both. If the train had stayed in the station, knowing what was going on elsewhere, then none of this would have happened. If the organisers had done their job properly it wouldn't have happened. If the passengers hadn't piled on to an overcrowded train it wouldn't have happened.

 

[NX]

So basically totally the fault of the passengers.

Do we know from which side of the train the trespassers alighted from? If they alighted onto the adjacent line then that would have been exceedingly stupid, and they were fortunate not to have placed themselves right into the path of the other train.


Feel sorry for the train staff on this one, a difficult situation to deal with.

The cesside is very very narrow, hard up against a concrete retaining wall.
--- old post above --- --- new post below ---

...if it's an accurate version of events. For one thing, I'd be impressed if passengers were "trying to get into the cab" as that would mean- on a 150/1- that they'd already broken in to the secure vestibule and were breaking a second door.

I suspect the truth is more that, due to the overcrowding, people were trying to get a bit more space for themselves. I've seen passengers do it on the 313s before. Inexcusable, but a little bit different from getting in the cab and decking the driver.

As for "abuse", I'm sure passengers will have been effing and blinding at being stuck on an overcrowded train for no good reason.

The term C@@T was banded about a lot, I don't feel this term is acceptable in any circumstance.

150/1, so yes seeing the crew doorway clear and being in a very crowded train I can also understanding the temptation to attempt to gain access, but again it's a locked door for a good reason, the crew doors aren't interlocked into the braking system.

Be under no mistake the train was overcrowded before it left Cliton, anyone in their right mind (not under the influence of drink and/or drugs (common on the line) would not have boarded or attempted to.

It's approx a 10 minute walk down hill from each station, not the 20 miles without any other form of transport, their were other options.

As for hearing the PA, granted I doubt anyone heard it as they were screaming, shouting (not through distress) and weren't listening anyway.

NX