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Passengers detrain themselves in Bristol area (26/09)

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D1009

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Is anyone aware if anything like this has happened before on this branch during events at Eastville Park? Looking at the geography, Eastville Park is nearly a mile from Stapleton Road and only 3 miles from Clifton Down, so was it reasonable to expect GWR to have foreseen this problem?
 
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Henbury Loop

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I certainly recall nothing like this on the Severn Beach line, ever.

I know they used to run excursion specials for Clifton Zoo via the currently freight only Henbury Loop, terminating at Clifton Down. That was some years ago and I don't know how busy they were?

Take a look at the platform on that Saturday - unprecedented. uploadfromtaptalk1443617090724.jpg
 

bramling

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I've got a feeling we may never know the real facts. It would have waited, after drawing forward from the platform, to cross the 14 34 ex Bristol TM coming off the Single Line and which was running late.

So is it the case that the reason for the delay was simply waiting for the signal to clear? How long was the delay?

Based on what has been posted, I don't agree with any suggestions this incident is similar to Kentish Town. In that case, it was basically the railway's fault. The passengers opened doors more because they were hot and exhausted, rather than as a means to self-detrain.

In this case, the service was up the wall because of overcrowding. They all chose to pack themselves in to the train. And I bet annoucements were made but no one heard them because people on the train were making a racket. (The latter point based on experience).

Where the blame lies will fall somewhere in a triangle between 'the railway', the event organisers and the passengers themselves, depending on your viewpoint, but if I were a regular passenger on the branch I'd be well ****ed off having the service wrecked as a result of this event.

Same happens when Arsenal have their evening matches. GN do run extra trains, but in reality people heading home all pile onto the first available train. A four-car train, more than adequate every other day, becomes rammed full of loud-mouthed trouble, all moaning about a problem that *they* are the cause of.
 

Bletchleyite

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Same happens when Arsenal have their evening matches. GN do run extra trains, but in reality people heading home all pile onto the first available train. A four-car train, more than adequate every other day, becomes rammed full of loud-mouthed trouble, all moaning about a problem that *they* are the cause of.

Then GN need to have staff at the station to manage the queues, as some other operators do for football etc. If the railway advertises a walk-up service, it needs to provide it, not just moan about unexpected loadings.
 

MarkyT

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1978 and BR are hardly relevant to the railway in 2015, where DfT basically mandate x number of carriages and no more. Nothing any operator can do when they are starting with insufficient carriages, even before losing them to the vagaries of failures and maintenance.

I disagree. I think one of today's London and SE operators could feasibly mount an operation like the Blackbushe concert specials for a similar massive event today, as long as it occurred outside peak commuting hours.

Smaller cities can have problems today if a particular event exceeds their normal peak commuter demand possibly (as it seems with the Bristol case) by orders of magnitude.

Bristol has only a very tiny local suburban operation today with historically only very modest passenger demand. The system is soon to be expanded thankfully with more trains and a new line to Portishead, but currently there simply is not a critical mass of sufficient stock and crew based locally to handle such irregular peaks in demand, even if it was worth it commercially for a TOC to do so voluntarily.

Nearby Cardiff has fewer problems dealing with crowds at the Millenium stadium because they do have a comprehensive local suburban network with significant resources. Just like London and the south east, as long as the big match or other event doesn't happen at peak commuter hours, normal off-peak trains can be strengthened suitably and additional trains run to handle the crowds. It's still a squeeze but it works - just.

In days of yore, railway companies used to hang on to some old rolling stock for such contingencies. Clearly they weren't always kept in the best decorative order, but strings of old coaches could be dusted off and pressed into service for 'race week' specials or the summer factory holiday excursions to Blackpool. Road coach companies do much the same today, although it's usually specialist small operators who buy up and continue to run the old vehicles for very price conscious niche markets such as football trips and school contracts.

Perhaps this is a potential use for non-RVAR-modified pacers. Once St Philips Marsh loses its HSTs, fill some of that siding space with old pacers. Use them only as strengthening vehicles to cover peak demand. They would only ever work in multiple with RVAR compliant units, never on their own, so each train would always include at least some compliant accommodation. Would that be legal?
 

ComUtoR

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The egress handle is a last-ditch emergency facility.

By that extension was it right for passengers to egress because it was overcrowded ? If its purpose is for emergency use then casual use of the egress should be frowned upon.


I *really* don't like that.

Ok, as I like you Neil here is one of the reasons why you can override those systems. Your in a tunnel and there is a small bin fire (typical on train fire) If the passcom is pulled and the train grinds to a halt inside the tunnel then that is not a safe situation. By having the ability to hit the override and bring the train to a stand at a safe place makes it a better system. Same with the egress. the last thing you would want is the train to come to a stand in a tunnel with doors open and nowhere to exit. There is also a strict rule where you cannot override the brake and you must let the train come to a stand.



If there is a need for networked data to be sent to it from around the train, it is not very failsafe. It should solely be a mechanical device, in my view.

There are various rules governing the use of the passcom safety overrides and it the passcom/egress was tripped out then the unit is out of service. I have had the passcoms fail and it will apply the brakes and sound the alarm. So it does fail safe. Also, as I have posted before, critical systems are very robust and undergo regular testing. Mechanical systems suffer with wear and would also require regular maintenance. Sometimes when a passcom has been pulled its biggest problem can be that you cant reset it. The "mechanical part" jams and can get stuck.

There is also a link on the Mitrac when the passcom/egress is pulled that it switches on the local CCTV. Again it is an improvement over the simply pull cord.

Hope that helps.
 

tsr

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I certainly recall nothing like this on the Severn Beach line, ever.

I know they used to run excursion specials for Clifton Zoo via the currently freight only Henbury Loop, terminating at Clifton Down. That was some years ago and I don't know how busy they were?

Take a look at the platform on that Saturday - unprecedented. View attachment 24006

I would be very concerned to see that amount of people wait for one train at Clapham Junction at Friday teatime, let alone on that line! :o
 

Tetchytyke

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As ever, the truth probably lies somewhere between it all being the railway's fault and it all being the passengers' fault. Passengers shouldn't be using the emergency escape to walk along the track, but equally the railway shouldn't be putting passengers in a position where they feel it is their only option.

It all boils down to communication. The organisers should be communicating with the railway so the railway know about the anticipated crowds. The railway should be communicating with the organisers to tell them their limitations, or agreeing to skip stops during the busiest times (Northern were quick to tell the organisers of an airshow at Teesside Airport that they wouldn't be able to stop trains there). And railway staff should be communicating with each other to prevent a situation where a train goes 300 yards down the track only to stop without warning or explanation.

Generally the railway seem very poor at assisting passengers when the service goes up the spout. You see that every time there's a signalling failure in London; they'll leave trains 200 yards from a platform for hours at a time, and then act all indignant when passengers let themselves off.

As for the passengers being to blame for getting on the train, a) not everyone stuck on that train will have crowded on to it and b) when the trains are as infrequent as they are on the Severn Beach line, what do you expect?
 
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ComUtoR

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Why not just ditch the event that causes the problem in the first place?

Money for both organizers and the travel companies.

I'm not sure that those people that mass gathering style events care about the local impact.
 

infobleep

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I would be very concerned to see that amount of people wait for one train at Clapham Junction at Friday teatime, let alone on that line! :o
I was once at Woking were it was very very crowded. Can't say for certain if it was a busy as that S I didn't have an above view. Basically there were signalling issues further up the line towards Waterloo and no trains for over an hour had been running between Guildford and Woking. They were being terminated and starting short at Guildford. Plenty of trains towards Basingstoke and beyond but people on this platform wished to reach Guildford and stations beyond there or perhaps even Worpolesden.

It was busy enough for staff to ask people to stand behind the yellow line as a fast train was approaching when one actually wasn't but they needed to say something get people behind the line.

Is there much that can be done in these situations such as that shown in the photo? It's not as of people need to pre-book rail journeys and earn companies of their intention to travel. Besides even if they do, what can the rail company do. Bar them from travelling? If it's already been mentioned then I apologise. I've not read the whole thread.
 

Bletchleyite

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By that extension was it right for passengers to egress because it was overcrowded ? If its purpose is for emergency use then casual use of the egress should be frowned upon.

As indeed it is frowned upon to use it other than in a real emergency.

Ok, as I like you Neil here is one of the reasons why you can override those systems. Your in a tunnel and there is a small bin fire (typical on train fire) If the passcom is pulled and the train grinds to a halt inside the tunnel then that is not a safe situation. By having the ability to hit the override and bring the train to a stand at a safe place makes it a better system. Same with the egress. the last thing you would want is the train to come to a stand in a tunnel with doors open and nowhere to exit. There is also a strict rule where you cannot override the brake and you must let the train come to a stand.

Fair enough. The difficulty to me is that a serious crash, such as with a serious fire where remaining on board is not the safest option (the main case when it should be used) any equipment connected to it that stops it working could perhaps "fail dangerous" and leave it locked. Ensuring that the egress will *always* work provided the door mechanism itself isn't critically damaged (even if the train is smashed to bits) if it relies on a cable that could be shorted out (say) is difficult. Not to say it hasn't been achieved, of course!

Hope that helps.

Cheers.
 

ComUtoR

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Is there much that can be done in these situations such as that shown in the photo? It's not as of people need to pre-book rail journeys and earn companies of their intention to travel. Besides even if they do, what can the rail company do. Bar them from travelling? If it's already been mentioned then I apologise. I've not read the whole thread.

They make on the fly decisions to issue "not to stop orders" whilst that does upset passengers it prevents problems on the platform. I have also noticed that services are not advertised until the last minute and drop off the board just before departure. Platform management is more an on the ground thing and relies on people rather than policies.

We run extra services for some special events and also boost carriages. Not all events are given priority and you still get the typical crush as kick out times dictate travel times. I suppose you could run a frequent service (1 minute between services) but you have infrastructure problems with available platforms and pathways. Something does need to be done that is for certain.
--- old post above --- --- new post below ---
Fair enough. The difficulty to me is that a serious crash, such as with a serious fire where remaining on board is not the safest option

True and I've had a fire on board. As I drive metro then getting to the nearest station takes a short amount of time and is the safest option. Granted if you need to egress then please do so. The tunnel is the main reason as you will always need somewhere to evac to. In all honesty they are very flame retardant. It's quicker and safer to move to another carriage.

any equipment connected to it that stops it working could perhaps "fail dangerous" and leave it locked. Ensuring that the egress will *always* work provided the door mechanism itself isn't critically damaged (even if the train is smashed to bits) if it relies on a cable that could be shorted out (say) is difficult. Not to say it hasn't been achieved, of course!

I have faith that it will fail safe. When they fail (its very rare) it is usually from prep and I have never heard of one failing in service. The brakes come on and cannot be overridden when they fail. The mechanical side is a pneumatic switch and the "pull cord" is mechanically holding it back because its an air based system it will always fail safe. We do have the new style "call for aid" buttons too and they are 100% electric (I think). Not sure I like those as typically as with all new railway stuff, they are £$"$%.

My only worry is when a door is locked out but others have posted that is unit specific and when doors are locked out we move passengers ;) (much to their annoyance) The safety systems are backed up with rules and regs so you are protected by a human as well.


Anytime.
 

bramling

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There's an argument that events should be required to be licenced and as part of that to set and cover the costs of a realistic travel plan. However that isn't a legal requirement.

Sounds like not a bad idea, if it could be made to work. The cost of providing transport should definitely fall more heavily on event organisers and participants.

Personally I'd be happy to pen crowds within the offending venue, and only release them at a manageable rate.

Cardiff has to be the worst. Whilst the arrangement might be the best they can do in the circumstances, it's pretty unacceptable that the main station serving a so-called capital city gets locked down every time there's an event at the nearby stadium.
 

WelshBluebird

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Cardiff has to be the worst. Whilst the arrangement might be the best they can do in the circumstances, it's pretty unacceptable that the main station serving a so-called capital city gets locked down every time there's an event at the nearby stadium.

The worst is if you are doing an interchange at the station. Being told that I can't go direct through the subway from platform 7 to platform 2 and instead have to exit at the rear, walk around the station to the front and then re-enter at the front of the station is a bit stupid to say the least! Especially if interchanging the other way (so going from a platform nearer the front of the station to one nearer the rear) direct through the subway is fine! Although last time I had to do it it was fine after the crowd control person asked some other person, but still.
 

Llanigraham

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Sounds like not a bad idea, if it could be made to work. The cost of providing transport should definitely fall more heavily on event organisers and participants.

Personally I'd be happy to pen crowds within the offending venue, and only release them at a manageable rate.

Cardiff has to be the worst. Whilst the arrangement might be the best they can do in the circumstances, it's pretty unacceptable that the main station serving a so-called capital city gets locked down every time there's an event at the nearby stadium.

Events do have to be licensed but one of the biggest problems is that some event organisers do not see transport of Joe Public as one of their problems, so do not notify anyone. At least this Event does seem to have tried to arrange buses, but not from the correct area.

Penning will only work if they are close to the public transport "stop", and also doesn't take into account those that used other methods to get there.

Funny, but most people think that the "Cardiff system" works well!
 

hassaanhc

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I'm still wondering how long the train was stopped before they decided to exit from the train? :idea: Earlier reports say about 15-20 minutes, while later on it is implied that it was similar to various incidents where passengers were stuck for several hours? :roll:

I know the PA equipment on various Mk3 stock isn't the best and the volume can be very low, making it hard to hear something even on a stationary EMU with everyone quiet, let alone when you've got a DMU with the engines running and a lot of noisy people.

Unfortunately a significant minority of students think it is cool to behave in an antisocial manner and have a rebellious attitude against authority. <(
 

tsr

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I have faith that it will fail safe. When they fail (its very rare) it is usually from prep and I have never heard of one failing in service. The brakes come on and cannot be overridden when they fail. The mechanical side is a pneumatic switch and the "pull cord" is mechanically holding it back because its an air based system it will always fail safe. We do have the new style "call for aid" buttons too and they are 100% electric (I think). Not sure I like those as typically as with all new railway stuff, they are £$"$%.

I've had two egresses have wrong-side failures in service. Both were on the same coach of one train, both were found to be dangerous at the origin station, and the train was declared a failure on the spot, taken out of service and run empty to depot. It did not re-emerge for quite some time...
 
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ComUtoR

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I've had two egresses have wrong-side failures in service. Both were on the same coach of one train, both were found to be dangerous at the origin station,

Ouch.

How was it discovered? By "in service" may I amend my previous statement to mean that the unit was "in service" with passengers on and running. I know technically that "in service" can mean various things. "At origin station" is different to "en route to"


and the train was declared a failure on the spot, taken out of service and run empty to depot. It did not re-emerge for quite some time...

Yup its taken quite serious. Everything safety wise is backed up with rules quite stringently. Passengers are rarely put in danger.
 

Xenophon PCDGS

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Sorry to come late to this thread but late last night, my son who lives in the Southwold area rang me to say that he had been looking at a media website which gives a selection of news stories and had seen a story about passengers disembarking from a railway carriage between railway stations somewhere in the Bristol area.

He then went on to say there was a large Press Association image that prefixed the story but this unit was in Northern Rail livery, unit number 144011, with York clearly shown as the destination. He asked how often it was that Northern Rail ran services from York to Bristol....:D

I cannot trace the said picture and news story and wondered if anyone on this thread had come across it.
 

PHILIPE

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Sorry to come late to this thread but late last night, my son who lives in the Southwold area rang me to say that he had been looking at a media website which gives a selection of news stories and had seen a story about passengers disembarking from a railway carriage between railway stations somewhere in the Bristol area.

He then went on to say there was a large Press Association image that prefixed the story but this unit was in Northern Rail livery, unit number 144011, with York clearly shown as the destination. He asked how often it was that Northern Rail ran services from York to Bristol....:D

I cannot trace the said picture and news story and wondered if anyone on this thread had come across it.

Typical Press. They pick up any rail picture that's most handiest. It was a 150/1
 

father_jack

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Ok. Let me add a fact or 2 to this thread.

First. The method of working on a down train at Clifton Down is to leave to time but if the up train is late it's 6 on the buzzer- move up to the signal at the end of the loop. If the train waits in the platform any subsequent delay minutes are GWRs, if out on the track they're NRs. That was why the train was where it was. Whether it was wise to announce "not to call" when not in the platform is another story that we're not privvy to the investigation of.

Second- the do was near Stapleton Road indeed, but Whiteladies road has been superceded in recent years by Gloucester Road as the "in" part of Bristol. The event at Eastville would have attracted business yes- but a lot would have just been going to Redland and Montpelier anyway and they were the ones that bailed and that were walking back to Clifton.

But lastly there is a perception amongst many that the Beach Line is free. Had a reasonably respectable Redland woman once paying a PF and buying a season, daughter had been caught -no money. (Proper order). But her biggest argument went along the line of "that train is usually free". The revenue protection manager of the day was passing (total savage) was passing- I unleashed him on her, cue screaming and police called......

The guards know the tricks- 20 get on all going Clifton to Montpelier, 2 buy singles with YP railcards paying by card if challenged- knowing the Avantix is painfully slow, 75p each. And they're at the destination......

Unless a Manchester Metrolink "fear of god to be caught without a ticket" regime is put on this line nothing will change.
 

ooo

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Ok. Let me add a fact or 2 to this thread.

First. The method of working on a down train at Clifton Down is to leave to time but if the up train is late it's 6 on the buzzer- move up to the signal at the end of the loop. If the train waits in the platform any subsequent delay minutes are GWRs, if out on the track they're NRs. That was why the train was where it was. Whether it was wise to announce "not to call" when not in the platform is another story that we're not privvy to the investigation of.

Second- the do was near Stapleton Road indeed, but Whiteladies road has been superceded in recent years by Gloucester Road as the "in" part of Bristol. The event at Eastville would have attracted business yes- but a lot would have just been going to Redland and Montpelier anyway and they were the ones that bailed and that were walking back to Clifton.

But lastly there is a perception amongst many that the Beach Line is free. Had a reasonably respectable Redland woman once paying a PF and buying a season, daughter had been caught -no money. (Proper order). But her biggest argument went along the line of "that train is usually free". The revenue protection manager of the day was passing (total savage) was passing- I unleashed him on her, cue screaming and police called......

The guards know the tricks- 20 get on all going Clifton to Montpelier, 2 buy singles with YP railcards paying by card if challenged- knowing the Avantix is painfully slow, 75p each. And they're at the destination......

Unless a Manchester Metrolink "fear of god to be caught without a ticket" regime is put on this line nothing will change.

As someone who uses this line regularly you've described this very well.
It would be good if more ticket machines were put in place but unfortunately they would most likely be vandalised.
GWR/FGW do have two guards/conductors/RPIs? on most services meaning that one can do the doors while the other collects fares. Otherwise there would be no chance at all of getting any money.
 

Bletchleyite

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As someone who uses this line regularly you've described this very well.
It would be good if more ticket machines were put in place but unfortunately they would most likely be vandalised.

The thing I find difficult to understand about this is why Metrolink manages to maintain TVMs at all stations (including some in very rough areas) but the railway doesn't. What is different I wonder?

To me, TVMs, Penalty Fares and no on-board sales seems the right way to run a line like this.
--- old post above --- --- new post below ---
First. The method of working on a down train at Clifton Down is to leave to time but if the up train is late it's 6 on the buzzer- move up to the signal at the end of the loop. If the train waits in the platform any subsequent delay minutes are GWRs, if out on the track they're NRs.

If that is the case that is ludicrous, and is a clear case of the railway's administrative convenience overriding the convenience of the passenger.
 

Taunton

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First. The method of working on a down train at Clifton Down is to leave to time but if the up train is late it's 6 on the buzzer- move up to the signal at the end of the loop. If the train waits in the platform any subsequent delay minutes are GWRs, if out on the track they're NRs. That was why the train was where it was.
This bit of industry in-fighting, which is the main reason all these people were out on the track instead of able to alight back onto Clifton Down platform, just needs to come to the attention of the RAIB and/or Patrick McLoughlin, who between them can go and whack some heads together in the delay accountants' offices.

That's if the Daily Telegraph doesn't get there first.
 
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Dave1987

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If one of these people had been ploughed over by another train and seriously hurt or killed then the media and the families would have been all over the railway as to why it was allowed to happen. I've seen comments on social media of passengers saying they are going to pull the egress handles and walk to the station after been at a stand for as little as ten minutes before. BTP and the railway in general need to make it clear to the travelling public that forcing the doors open on a train and getting onto the track is not acceptable except in an emergency. If the train was that crowded why did they board it?
 

Carlisle

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GWR/FGW do have two guards/conductors/RPIs? on most services meaning that one can do the doors while the other collects fares. Otherwise there would be no chance at all of getting any money.

Which is exactly why it makes sense longer term to at least consider transferring door controls to drivers on some of these type of services
 
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tsr

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Ouch.

How was it discovered? By "in service" may I amend my previous statement to mean that the unit was "in service" with passengers on and running. I know technically that "in service" can mean various things. "At origin station" is different to "en route to"




Yup its taken quite serious. Everything safety wise is backed up with rules quite stringently. Passengers are rarely put in danger.

Well... we tried opening the doors normally on arrival from ECS, reset everything we could reasonably think of, tried the egresses, and had an "oh dear" moment. They'd jammed solid! It was taken very seriously. There was also a fault indication but it turned out to be entirely spurious and hadn't been discovered before leaving the depot anyway.

There were passengers onboard who had already joined the other coaches and filtered down inside, so they had to go through the cab or back through the gangways.
 
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