UK Steel Crisis

[muddythefish]

I might just be an unreconstructed socialist but steel production is a critical national defence metric.
After all you cant build ships and tanks out of management consultants

Correct, but then when did civil servants sitting in Whitehall understand manufacturing or anything else for that matter outside the south east ?
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Though our armoured vehicle industry has pretty much withered to nothing thanks to MoD and Government incompetence (I'm honestly not sure that we could produce an MBT anymore though we could probably manage less complex vehicles like APCs) and we only have one shipyard each capable of complex surface warship or submarine construction and they're only scaled to produce at a fairly slow rate.

The manufactoring cupboard, when it comes to weapons, is pretty bare these days.

"We made so much and we let it all crumble"
..... the Manic Street Preachers.

Piece by piece, a nation dies.

 

[Tetchytyke]

I might just be an unreconstructed socialist but steel production is a critical national defence metric.

Well, quite.

But when even the ships and guns are made by foreign companies in foreign countries, what does one expect?

Let's hope Uncle Sam keeps being nice to us.

 

[ExRes]

I was under the impression, from many and varied posts on this forum, that arms manufacture is evil as is the view that we are a nation rather than a piece of Europe

 

[Tetchytyke]

Arms manufacture isn't evil; arms dealing is though.

There's nothing wrong with manufacturing arms for the purposes of defending one's country. Selling those arms to other countries, many of whom are or have become enemies, is evil. And you only have to look at the way Saudi Arabia- a country with one of the worst human rights records in the world- is able to influence UK prosecutors because of their arms procurement deals to see that it's not a great idea to be arming everyone else with your weapons.

Trident is a waste of time and money though. The countries that would be deterred by Trident would also be deterred by conventional weapons; the countries that wouldn't be deterred by conventional weapons won't be deterred by Trident either.

 

[Xenophon PCDGS]

Since their election victory in May this Tory government has "paused" (cancelled) various northern electrification schemes and now refused to step in when another piece of northern heavy manufacturing looks to be heading for the scrapyard. So much for Gideon's great "Northern Powerhouse. A cynic would say it was nothing more than a headline-grabbing election gimmick.

How things can change from day to day. Can you, with today's announcement that concerns "The Northern Powerhouse", clarify what you said above concerning "paused" (cancelled).
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I might just be an unreconstructed socialist but steel production is a critical national defence metric.
After all you cant build ships and tanks out of management consultants

What number of new ships and tanks are in the latest defence forecast requirements.

What amount of steel scrap can be obtained in the same period from redundant defence assets that can be re-used for future steel production.
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"We made so much and we let it all crumble"
..... the Manic Street Preachers.

Piece by piece, a nation dies.

How long does Britain have before your version of Armageddon arrives and then what will be the future. What you say sounds very like something that would come from the ISIL caliphate as propaganda.

 

[flymo]

The closure of the steel plant in Teesside reminds me of the closure of Consett steel works in the 80's with the loss of around 4,000 jobs. Not only that but the Swan Hunter shipyards, Derwenthaugh coke works, NEI Parsons, goodness knows how many collieries which were all closed or were seriously cut back a few years thereafter and who knows how many other support industries.

Being born and bred in Newcastle in the 60's I have seen my fair share of huge places with thousands of employees close down, scale down or move elsewhere. Life moves on...it'll even move on in Teesside, however unlikely it may seem just now.

 

[DarloRich]

. Life moves on...it'll even move on in Teesside, however unlikely it may seem just now.

Life moves on - it doesn't always recover.

How long does Britain have before your version of Armageddon arrives and then what will be the future. What you say sounds very like something that would come from the ISIL caliphate as propaganda.

Paul - I am sorry but you don't half talk some silliness at times! That is a line from a song (All We Make Is Entertainment) about the evisceration of British heavy industry since the 1980's; it hardly equates to the actions of ISIL/IS/Islamonutjobs
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How much of a comparison can you draw to what happened at Ravenscraig in 1992 to the current situation in Redcar?

The resulting unemployment will be similar although Ravenscriag was owned by British Steel rather than a foreign company. There were said to be c.10,000 job losses at the steel works and in associated trades/ companies. The area is still suffering although with investment different business have been attracted to the area but not in the numbers lost or paying the same wages.The Ravenscraig plant is now home to what will be the a massive new town.

 

[Xenophon PCDGS]

Paul - I am sorry but you don't half talk some silliness at times! That is a line from a song (All We Make Is Entertainment) about the evisceration of British heavy industry since the 1980's; it hardly equates to the actions of ISIL/IS/Islamonutjobs

It was the sentiment expressed by muddythefish in his posting...."Piece by piece a nation dies".... that I just could not come to terms with in terms of reality. Am I really supposed to give credence to such unmitigated garbage that has been committed to print, in which terminal decline of Britain is envisaged.

If that be said to be "silliness", then what other gems of wisdom will also flow from that source that is deemed connectional to the subject matter of this thread?

 

[DarloRich]

It was the sentiment expressed by muddythefish in his posting...."Piece by piece a nation dies".... that I just could not come to terms with in terms of reality. Am I really supposed to give credence to such unmitigated garbage that has been committed to print, in which terminal decline of Britain is envisaged.

If that be said to be "silliness", then what other gems of wisdom will also flow from that source that is deemed connectional to the subject matter of this thread?

but to many people in this country, especially those from the former heavy industrial centers and those who lack your comfortable financial circumstances it does feel like that. (That is not meant as an insult- you have on many occasions trumpeted your financial health and standing)

While your part of the nation might be prospering, many other parts are withering and dying.

 

[muddythefish]

How things can change from day to day. Can you, with today's announcement that concerns "The Northern Powerhouse", clarify what you said above concerning "paused" (cancelled).
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A very welcome announcement today - albeit we have to wait possibly at least another 8 - 10 years before the wires go up.

Not so much a Northern Powerhouse as a Northern Slow Fuse.

 

[Robertj21a]

The trans-Pennine scheme is in the north obviously while the MML cancellation affected the north too. And where are the govt announcements with help for Teesside ? These are big blows to the northern economy and make a mockery of the "Northern Powerhouse" idea. I don't know what point you're trying to make.

The MML largely affects the Midlands - Nottingham Derby, Leicester, Kettering etc etc. In any event, the announcement today is that it is to be 'unpaused' (it was never cancelled).

Not sure why you can't see the point I was trying to make. Redcar is a victim of over-supply - what is there to misunderstand ?

 

[muddythefish]

It was the sentiment expressed by muddythefish in his posting...."Piece by piece a nation dies".... that I just could not come to terms with in terms of reality. Am I really supposed to give credence to such unmitigated garbage that has been committed to print, in which terminal decline of Britain is envisaged.

If that be said to be "silliness", then what other gems of wisdom will also flow from that source that is deemed connectional to the subject matter of this thread?

The reality is living in places like Teesside and other parts of the north that have been suffering for the past 35 years from de-industrialisation and the loss of manufacturing jobs.

For someone boasting of living in leafy Cheshire you need to rein yourself in before posting your own "garbage".
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The MML largely affects the Midlands - Nottingham Derby, Leicester, Kettering etc etc. In any event, the announcement today is that it is to be 'unpaused' (it was never cancelled).

Not sure why you can't see the point I was trying to make. Redcar is a victim of over-supply - what is there to misunderstand ?

Redcar is the victim of a failed laissez faire market-led industrial policy and an indifferent and distant government.

 

[DarloRich]

of some interest is the report (http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-england-34401236) issued today by the Department for Communities and Local Government dealing with their English Indices of Deprivation (https://www.gov.uk/government/uploa...of_Deprivation_2015_-_Statistical_Release.pdf) which indicates:

BBC:
...the Middlesbrough council area had the highest proportion of deprived neighbourhoods

and

BBC:
... It found almost half of Middlesbrough's 42 neighbourhoods were among the most deprived 10% nationally....

 

[Xenophon PCDGS]

The reality is living in places like Teesside and other parts of the north that have been suffering for the past 35 years from de-industrialisation and the loss of manufacturing jobs.

For someone boasting of living in leafy Cheshire you need to rein yourself in before posting your own "garbage".

The Cotton Industry of the north-west of England saw large numbers of towns and cities affected by the eventual dimunation of that particular industry over a far greater period of time than the 35 years that you make reference to in your quote above.

Look and see how the area that once saw vast numbers of mills employing countless thousands of people came to terms with this event. I might well now live in a most affluent part of Cheshire East, but I was born in the area where the Lancashire and Yorkshire Railway New Allen Street railway viaduct once stood that led to the Oldham Road railway goods depot, just north of the Manchester city centre.

If a spoon was said to be in my mouth at birth, it was one that was made of tin or pewter, most definitely not one made of silver. I am where I am today at the age of 70 directly as a result of intensive study in my early youth, culminating in a First in Mathematics at Manchester University in 1966, then a long career in business which was earned by hard application and being exceedingly good at my job. Thirty years at the highest echelons of senior management, a good marriage of 40 years to a professional woman and careful financial investments that led me to owning the type of property in the most excellent situation where I so reside.

 

[DarloRich]

The Cotton Industry of the north-west of England saw large numbers of towns and cities affected by the eventual dimunation of that particular industry over a far greater period of time than the 35 years that you make reference to in your quote above.

Look and see how the area that once saw vast numbers of mills employing countless thousands of people came to terms with this event. I might well now live in a most affluent part of Cheshire East, but I was born in the area where the Lancashire and Yorkshire Railway New Allen Street railway viaduct once stood that led to the Oldham Road railway goods depot, just north of the Manchester city centre.

If a spoon was said to be in my mouth at birth, it was one that was made of tin or pewter, most definitely not one made of silver. I am where I am today at the age of 70 directly as a result of intensive study in my early youth, culminating in a First in Mathematics at Manchester University in 1966, then a long career in business which was earned by hard application and being exceedingly good at my job. Thirty years at the highest echelons of senior management, a good marriage of 40 years to a professional woman and careful financial investments that led me to owning the type of property in the most excellent situation where I so reside.

Paul, no one is criticising you for doing well in life and making the best of the opportunities presented to you. The criticism I make is that you are not able or willing to put yourself in the shoes of others who were not lucky enough to make a similar journey and then seeking to dismiss concerns from those who have more exposure to the more deprived areas of the country.

Not everyone is presented with the opportunities you were and not everyone is able to take full advantage of the opportunities they are offered. It is wonderful that you did but you should acknowledge that not everyone in this country is that lucky or able to make that journey.

 

[Robertj21a]

The reality is living in places like Teesside and other parts of the north that have been suffering for the past 35 years from de-industrialisation and the loss of manufacturing jobs.

For someone boasting of living in leafy Cheshire you need to rein yourself in before posting your own "garbage".
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Redcar is the victim of a failed laissez faire market-led industrial policy and an indifferent and distant government.

So, according to you, was the government supposed to have 'meddled' with a private company ? - or do you feel that they should have 'invested' taxpayers money in a company that had little prospect of remaining solvent ?.

I hope that the government, and all other relevant parties, pull together to provide every assistance possible to those affected by the Redcar closure - but that doesn't alter the simple fact that it's a private company. Many companies close down all the time, just as others start up all the time. We have all had to adapt to changes in our lives.

 

[DarloRich]

We have all had to adapt to changes in our lives.

Easy to adapt to change in a comfortable location where you can move from job to job. That isn't the case on Teesside and to suggest it is shows a complete lack of knowledge & understanding of the position there.

It is that kind of smug, glib remark that winds me up.

 

[Arglwydd Golau]

So, according to you, was the government supposed to have 'meddled' with a private company ? - or do you feel that they should have 'invested' taxpayers money in a company that had little prospect of remaining solvent ?.

Presumably you would have no objection to the Government 'meddling' with a private company by offering them grants and tax-breaks to relocate as is often the case? Private companies receive considerable amounts of taxpayers money...and when they fail they certainly don't bother paying it back! Had a few of those in Wales.

 

[muddythefish]

So, according to you, was the government supposed to have 'meddled' with a private company ? - or do you feel that they should have 'invested' taxpayers money in a company that had little prospect of remaining solvent ?.

I hope that the government, and all other relevant parties, pull together to provide every assistance possible to those affected by the Redcar closure - but that doesn't alter the simple fact that it's a private company. Many companies close down all the time, just as others start up all the time. We have all had to adapt to changes in our lives.

Yes, absolutely. See Rolls Royce in the 1970s, nursed back to health, returned to the private sector and now a world-renowned engineering company.

Interventionism is good; don't believe the guff one always hears and reads about the market always deciding.

 

[Robertj21a]

Easy to adapt to change in a comfortable location where you can move from job to job. That isn't the case on Teesside and to suggest it is shows a complete lack of knowledge & understanding of the position there.

It is that kind of smug, glib remark that winds me up.

Where on earth do you get smug and glib from my posting ? That sounds like someone who thinks he knows better than other people and is the only one who has ever suffered from work-related problems. I never suggested that it was easy to change.

As someone who has moved from a comfortable location to one that is most definitely far less comfortable then I'm far more likely to understand the practicalities involved than many others on here.

Take your 'holier than thou' attitude out on someone who hasn't experienced similar pain - otherwise allow people to post their views without your added misinterpretations.
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Yes, absolutely. See Rolls Royce in the 1970s, nursed back to health, returned to the private sector and now a world-renowned engineering company.

Interventionism is good; don't believe the guff one always hears and reads about the market always deciding.

I agree about Rolls Royce, but that was, as you say, a world-renowned engineering company. Unfortunately, Redcar makes steel.......

 

[DarloRich]

Where on earth do you get smug and glib from my posting ? That sounds like someone who thinks he knows better than other people and is the only one who has ever suffered from work-related problems. I never suggested that it was easy to change.

As someone who has moved from a comfortable location to one that is most definitely far less comfortable then I'm far more likely to understand the practicalities involved than many others on here.

Take your 'holier than thou' attitude out on someone who hasn't experienced similar pain - otherwise allow people to post their views without your added misinterpretations.

Apologies - I will, in future, merely accept your position as it stands without question.

You said people should accept change. No one disagrees. The problem, which you and others seem to miss, is that the opportunity to change into something else isn't easily available here nor do you or anyone else seem to have any idea how those opportunities are to be provided.

 

[radamfi]

When I was growing up, Manchester was a desperate place, considered an economic catastrophe. Not only that, it had a huge amount of gang violence. The inner city was a ghetto. Now it is a fast growing city that people want to move to. That's an example of a northern "basket case" that recovered.

 

[DarloRich]

When I was growing up, Manchester was a desperate place, considered an economic catastrophe. Not only that, it had a huge amount of gang violence. The inner city was a ghetto. Now it is a fast growing city that people want to move to. That's an example of a northern "basket case" that recovered.

via inwards investment and regeneration. Precious little of that has occurred on Teesside in the last 20 years especially since the Teesside Development Company was wound up (setting aside the debate about the actual legacy left by some of this development)

 

[Oswyntail]

...You said people should accept change. No one disagrees.....

I have often wondered if that is the case.I am thinking, for now, of the "mining communities" of South Yorkshire. To an outsider, it looks as if, whenever any replacement industry has been suggested or tried, there has been a reaction of "We are a mining community - we want our mines back". This is understandable in individuals. But, for me, the real failures are the civic leaders, elected representatives, who seem to encourage this impossible dream, rather than leading the communities out of the morass.

 

[Robertj21a]

Apologies - I will, in future, merely accept your position as it stands without question.

You said people should accept change. No one disagrees. The problem, which you and others seem to miss, is that the opportunity to change into something else isn't easily available here nor do you or anyone else seem to have any idea how those opportunities are to be provided.

In my case I moved 200 miles away from my family so that I could have a job. Others will not want/be able to do similar - but if you have no proper income then your life will suffer anyway.

Anyone who is a realist will not wait for work to arrive in the Teesside area.

 

[mbonwick]

I know mine won't be a popular opinion here - but the closure of Redcar has been 4 years in the making, ever since Tata sold it.

In the wake of the sale in 2011, I was at Tata Rotherham on a site visit with university - the opinion of staff there at the time (including some who had been at Redcar) was surprise that somebody had actually bought it, and a prediction that things wouldn't last unless Redcar "upvalued" it's products.

The fact is that the UK is not an attractive place to be producing Steel - even taking the cheap labour of the Far East out of the equation. Llanwern hot strip mill was mothballed because the cost of electicity is significantly higher here than in France (and because Tata had too much production capacity).

Don't get me wrong - it's a real shame that this has happened, but there's no point asking the government to step in with funds, as all that will do is delay the inevitable.

 

[DarloRich]

In my case I moved 200 miles away from my family so that I could have a job. Others will not want/be able to do similar - but if you have no proper income then your life will suffer anyway.

Anyone who is a realist will not wait for work to arrive in the Teesside area.

214 miles door to door for me and I hate it. I want to work at home, I hate the south, I hate southerners and I hate the housing prices but there are no jobs at home. If i had a family at the time could I have moved south easily? No, not easily, for the simple fact that they couldn't be accommodated with me.

I am sure those who can move will move and quickly, accelerating the skills and "brain" drain in an already declingin area. Many, however wont be able to, they have families to consider, houses to pay for etc. Even if you sold your house in Redcar and moved south your would never be able to afford a similar property to house your family.

The real world often doesn't let you up sticks and move at the drop of a hat.

I know mine won't be a popular opinion here - but the closure of Redcar has been 4 years in the making, ever since Tata sold it.

In the wake of the sale in 2011, I was at Tata Rotherham on a site visit with university - the opinion of staff there at the time (including some who had been at Redcar) was surprise that somebody had actually bought it, and a prediction that things wouldn't last unless Redcar "upvalued" it's products.

The fact is that the UK is not an attractive place to be producing Steel - even taking the cheap labour of the Far East out of the equation. Llanwern hot strip mill was mothballed because the cost of electicity is significantly higher here than in France (and because Tata had too much production capacity).

Don't get me wrong - it's a real shame that this has happened, but there's no point asking the government to step in with funds, as all that will do is delay the inevitable.

So your solution is tough cheese, be on your way and don't let the door hit you on the way out?

I am not sure anyone is realistically suggesting that the government buy the steel works just to keep it open, although i wonder if that might cost less than years of benefits!

My charge is:

a) They didn't do enough to keep the works open when they had the chance.

b) That they aren't doing enough to help with finding employment and retraining for people who have lost their jobs

c) They don't have a plan for regeneration of the whole area, or even a desire to find one.

I have often wondered if that is the case.I am thinking, for now, of the "mining communities" of South Yorkshire. To an outsider, it looks as if, whenever any replacement industry has been suggested or tried, there has been a reaction of "We are a mining community - we want our mines back". This is understandable in individuals. But, for me, the real failures are the civic leaders, elected representatives, who seem to encourage this impossible dream, rather than leading the communities out of the morass.

I agree - the problem is that the replacement industries are often nothing of the sort, offer poorer terms, poorer wages and less security IF any regeneration is even attempted. The government should by now have sensible regeneration plans for the majority of our former industrial areas. The sad fact is they don't, and i don't think they care.

The other issue, and one the Tory party seem to excel at, is the destruction of communities, especially in the north east and other former industrial areas. One of my big concerns here is the damage to the fabric of the community. With the steel works gone the community has lost some of its strength and focus and will quickly lose its skilled workers and their wages leading to less economic vitality in the area.

Very quickly you go from a situation where families and communities are bound by a shared value system developed in local communities and through working for a certain industry to something more fluid. This leads to a breakdown of "Conservative" values - the importance of work, a work ethic, pride in the community, a pride in doing a hard, demanding job and a pride in the area and industrial heritage that brings and a feeling of belonging.

Once that starts to go the social glue holding places together starts to weaken and the quality of the area declines rapidly, gathering pace in a downward spiral until more criminal elements begin to move in taking advantage of the increased social deprivation to sell their wares.

 

[WestCoast]

While the argument that workers should travel is seen as the realist view, here's something interesting: the UK apparently has the second highest level of regional disparity in GDP per capita in the whole of the EU. http://londoneconomics.co.uk/wp-con...s-in-GDP-per-capita-in-the-EU-28-05-20131.pdf. Higher than Germany, where the country absorbed a former Warsaw Pact state.

There is a reason why a third of the EU's budget is dedicated to structural funds to lessen the impact of such.

 

[455driver]

The fact is that the UK is not an attractive place to be producing Steel - even taking the cheap labour of the Far East out of the equation. Llanwern hot strip mill was mothballed because the cost of electicity is significantly higher here than in France (and because Tata had too much production capacity).

Perhaps we need to ask why our electricity is so much higher, maybe its because instead of producing our own we buy a lot of it from France who can basically name their price?

 

[muddythefish]

I agree about Rolls Royce, but that was, as you say, a world-renowned engineering company. Unfortunately, Redcar makes steel.......

R-R was a small struggling aero engine maker at the time dependent on the success of one engine , the RB211.

You've also forgotten that the banks had to be bailed out with taxpayers money in 2008.

The point is, state rescue works.