Trains and the Rugby World Cup

[WesternS]

As an occasional visitor to the Millenium Stadium rugby matches, I've said my piece about the arrangements at Cardiff Central post-match on another thread. What I'd suggest is different this time for many of the stations is that the flows and travel mode choices of the RWC spectator set is different to 'normal' rugby and football matches at these locations. What was interesting about being at Villa Park this Sat was how many people attending had come to Birmingham via public transport (mainly the train via New St). The usual Villa Park crowd use many more modes of transport (for example the usual car parks around Villa Park were only half full, much to the chagrin of the 'car minders') and come from a far greater compass (i.e. not just from the City Centre). So where a rail station such as Aston or Witton might, on a 'soccer' Saturday, get 10% of the crowd each, for the RWC, Aston would pick up 30%+, purely because they're not local/regular visitors and "Aston is close to Aston Villa isn't it".

Add to this for somewhere like Cardiff or Gloucester, where (a) the match ticket mix is not the usual local fans (whether from the Valleys or Gloucestershire) who might meet at their local rugby club for a pint and then all go on the club-organised coach, (b) a lot of visiting non-UK fans are coming from London ('cos we can see Big Ben too whilst we're here and that's where our travel agent booked our hotel...) and (c) the train is easier and faster to use and find out about than the NX coach etc etc, then the usual rail arrangements which rely on a smaller modal share are going to be overwhelmed by sheer volume. [And that's before we get to kick-off times and stock availability.]

Was in France for the 1998 Soccer World Cup and had the Friday QF in Paris and the Saturday QF in Marseille. Went down on the Sat morning on the TGV with no problem - a few extra trains put on, but why not over-crowded ? All TGVs then (not sure about now) had booked seats only..... And no problems in keeping off those who didn't have a ticket, since no seat, no ticket.

 

[Southern Beau]

Has anyone any idea what the set up will be like at Newcastle Central station on Saturday 03 October for the RSA v SCO match at St James Park?

I've never been to Newcastle for football and will be looking to get a train to MAN.

 

[WelshBluebird]

It's still getting worse PR wise for GWR. I don't know why GWR is getting all the flack but it is.

http://www.gloucestercitizen.co.uk/...ailway-boss/story-27883843-detail/story.html?



Did anyone observe the goings on at Gloucester?

Wasn't a member of staff assaulted at the station / on a train leading to at least that service being delayed or canceled and no doubt causing further disruption in general? That couldn't have helped!

 

[richw]

My uncle has been to World Cup games at both Wembley and Cardiff. He lives somewhere between reading and Basingstoke. he posted on Facebook how much better organised and smoother, quicker and more relaxed It was getting the train at Wembley compared to Cardiff.
The crowds were about the same I believe.
He also said how poor the atmosphere was at Wembley compared to Cardiff!

 

[Parallel]

It's still getting worse PR wise for GWR. I don't know why GWR is getting all the flack but it is.

I'm not sure either. I think it's because they've been in the media and have every bit of promotion going for the GWR rebrand, so are in the public eye at the moment. First Great Western/GWR even sponsor the weather forecast for the West Country! The promotion has suggested that the GWR will bring a better railway to the west, but a lot of commuters and other passengers think its got worse the last couple of weeks, if twitter is anything to go by at least. Obviously the change was never going to happen over night, and launching rebrand near Cardiff match day was always going to be difficult. The real danger for First is that the GWR name and rebranding they've spent money on is going to be destroyed by the time the new trains arrive!

 

[bnm]

Speaking of twitter, I came across this on Twitter the other day. Seems the staff have given up... Did give me a laugh though!

https://pbs.twimg.com/media/CPpeOvtXAAECC5C.jpg

Fake. Someone being mischievous and snipping out the back and forth. Full twitter conversation:

https://twitter.com/LilyDarvell/status/646734519073140736

 

[jimm]

It's still getting worse PR wise for GWR. I don't know why GWR is getting all the flack but it is.

http://www.gloucestercitizen.co.uk/...ailway-boss/story-27883843-detail/story.html?

Did anyone observe the goings on at Gloucester?

Golly, a rant in the Daily Hatemail. I'm sure Mr Hopwood will fall on his sword after that...

No surprise that, like certain other people, Mr Samuel of the Hatemail doesn't seem to think that many other TOCs' efforts (total lack of) out of London late on Saturday night merits any discussion.

And he doesn't seem to be averse to a bit of bungling himself, if this gem from his rant is anything to go by:

There were 14,000 people at Kingsholm. That’s not even a big crowd. If Sheffield United got 14,000 for a home game in League One, the chairman would chuck himself off the top of the main stand.

Sheffield United must be getting through a lot of chairmen then. Lowest gate so far for a home league game this season, 17,623, highest 23,031. Five chairmen down and counting...

 

[Parallel]

Fake. Someone being mischievous and snipping out the back and forth. Full twitter conversation:

https://twitter.com/LilyDarvell/status/646734519073140736

I've edited my original comment. Shows I shouldn't believe everything I read!

 

[BestWestern]

He has called on Martin Hopwood, managing director of the newly rebranded rail company, to resign.

Errr, who??

Complete loss of all journalistic credibility in a matter of seconds. Go away, you moron.

 

[D1009]

I wonder how FGW will cope with crowds to watch Namibia v Tonga at Sandy Park later today.

 

[Stonesourscotty]

Northern/Tpe/Network Rail have adverts all over Manchester Victoria for the Grand Final and the Union game that day on the 10th no mention of any extras

 

[deltic]

Northern/Tpe/Network Rail have adverts all over Manchester Victoria for the Grand Final and the Union game that day on the 10th no mention of any extras

Because there are virtually none except for an additional late evening train to each of Wigan, Preston, Liverpool, Huddersfield, Stalybridge and Rochdale.

Some more extras at Piccadilly including a couple of Virgin trains to London and EMT to Nottingham and Liverpool plus an extra late evening NT services on many local lines.

 

[PHILIPE]

Following the New Zealand v Georgia game at Cardiff on Friday evening, additional services following the match are going to result in units in the wrong places and insufficient time to service ready for first thing on Saturday due to their very late finishing.
As a consequence, ATW have cancelled a number of first trains on some Cardiff Valleys routes on Saturday morning. There is no replacement road transport in place. Details of trains on ATW Website.
ATW Twitter being asked questions such as "I am booked on 07 50 ex Cardiff to Manchester - will you arrange a taxi from Barry" or "How am I supposed to get to work".

 

[bnm]

And he doesn't seem to be averse to a bit of bungling himself, if this gem from his rant is anything to go by:

There were 14,000 people at Kingsholm. That’s not even a big crowd. If Sheffield United got 14,000 for a home game in League One, the chairman would chuck himself off the top of the main stand.

Sheffield United must be getting through a lot of chairmen then. Lowest gate so far for a home league game this season, 17,623, highest 23,031. Five chairmen down and counting...

No bungling on the journo's part. Bungling on yours. The point was it was a comparatively small attendance at Kingsholm. If Sheffield United got such low attendances the chairman would be suicidal. Why would he be suicidal with a 20,000 average in the 3rd tier of English football, the best average in League One?

I agree that the article was a piece of trash. But misquoting a piece of trash...:roll:

 

[Kite159]

My uncle has been to World Cup games at both Wembley and Cardiff. He lives somewhere between reading and Basingstoke. he posted on Facebook how much better organised and smoother, quicker and more relaxed It was getting the train at Wembley compared to Cardiff.
The crowds were about the same I believe.
He also said how poor the atmosphere was at Wembley compared to Cardiff!

Cardiff only has one main station which is open after a match (as I believe Queen Street & other local stations are either closed or made exit-only), Wembley has 3 stations (Wembley Park for Jubilee/Metropolitan lines, Wembley Stadium for Chiltern & Wembley Central for Bakerloo/LOROL so the load is split out a bit more than at Cardiff.

 

[PHILIPE]

Cardiff only has one main station which is open after a match (as I believe Queen Street & other local stations are either closed or made exit-only), Wembley has 3 stations (Wembley Park for Jubilee/Metropolitan lines, Wembley Stadium for Chiltern & Wembley Central for Bakerloo/LOROL so the load is split out a bit more than at Cardiff.

Cardiff Queen St is available only for changing into and out of the Cardiff Bay service from/to any other train. It has to be closed for safety reasons. Mo other stations in the vicinity are closed.

 

[jimm]

No bungling on the journo's part. Bungling on yours. The point was it was a comparatively small attendance at Kingsholm. If Sheffield United got such low attendances the chairman would be suicidal. Why would he be suicidal with a 20,000 average in the 3rd tier of English football, the best average in League One?

I agree that the article was a piece of trash. But misquoting a piece of trash...:roll:

Clearly I need to go and have a lie-down.

Though why you think Mr Samuel's article is trash when - behind all the hyperbole - he takes basically the same line on GWR's actions/inactions over the past week-and-a-half as you, beats me. Ho hum.

 

[Michael.Y]

Cardiff only has one main station which is open after a match (as I believe Queen Street & other local stations are either closed or made exit-only), Wembley has 3 stations (Wembley Park for Jubilee/Metropolitan lines, Wembley Stadium for Chiltern & Wembley Central for Bakerloo/LOROL so the load is split out a bit more than at Cardiff.

But its layout means it has potentially three or four entrances.

You can filter people in through the front or back of the station, and then in the tunnel filter them up stairs.

You can also send people to P0 through two alternative routes.

People seem to be forgetting that the system at Cardiff *works* - it's just the volume of people that changes. It's no good complaining about a queuing system when there's 20,000 people wanting to go east. You must expect to wait a little while.

 

[Greenback]

I think it's probably fair to add that the crowd demographics for a World Cup match in Cardiff are going to be a bit different to those for a Wales home game, even if Wales are playing. There are likely to be more fans unfamiliar with Cardiff and the queuing system, and from other countries and areas of the UK, for a start.

I think this goes some way to accounting for the increase in complaints about the queues.

 

[didcotdean]

The advice coming through from a mixture of sources suggests the time expected to clear fully the public transport queues at the some of the bigger venues are:

Wembley - 90 minutes
Twickenham - 2 hours
Cardiff - 3 hours

The latter would be particularly challenging for an 8pm KO. It is the only one where RWC2015 travel advice to ticket holders suggests considering travelling back the day afterwards for comfort.

 

[Greenback]

Friends have been to many events at the Millennium Stadium, including concerts and Olympic football as well as rugby, and I've never heard anyone say that the queues for a train took three hours.

But of course, they are heading back to west Wales and at times that may not be the same as some of the RWC matches.

 

[father_jack]

80 coaches (procured by RWC organisers) are to be at Cardiff for shuttles to Bristol Parkway after tomorrow's and Friday's matches.

 

[jimm]

Friends have been to many events at the Millennium Stadium, including concerts and Olympic football as well as rugby, and I've never heard anyone say that the queues for a train took three hours.

But of course, they are heading back to west Wales and at times that may not be the same as some of the RWC matches.

But if the figure of them shifting 10,000 people per hour on to trains at Cardiff entral and transporting in the range of 30,000-40,000 after the recent games is accurate - presumably ATW have some system to count them - then three hours matches that. And that passenger count is way more than were caught in 'chaos' after the Olympic football in 2012 - when travel patterns were also likely to be a bit different from a Six Nations game, say - as discussed at the time in this thread, where the 19,500 rail passengers were said to be double the normal total then expected after a Millennium Stadium event:

http://www.railforums.co.uk/showthread.php?t=69489
http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-wales-south-east-wales-19091014

All of which suggests that growth for rail travel on such occasions in Cardiff is running way ahead of growth on the network generally and this in a context where normal forecasting tools are probably not much help given all the variables that the world cup throws up when it comes to where people might be travelling from and to.

And there could be even more pressure on the trains for tomorrow and Friday's games, as Cardiff Bus drivers are going on strike.

http://www.walesonline.co.uk/news/wales-news/reduced-buses-packed-trains-travellers-10160212

 

[Greenback]

I agree with your conclusion about travel to Cardiff by train becoming ever more popular, whether for sporting events or just generally.

I think on aspect of RWC and Olympic event sis that fewer people are likely to want to be hanging around the city centre after an event before catching a train home. With a later kick off, that will be impossible for many, so the concentration of people in the queue will likely be higher than when there are more spectators able and willing to go for a drink or food before catching a train home, as might happen for a traditional afternoon 6N kick off, for example.

I think that my friends experiences reflect that. They don't tend to rush to the station as soon as the game concludes. They do tend to wait on the assumption that queues will die down later on. Therefore, they don;t have to wait for several hours in a queue!

 

[jimm]

I agree with your conclusion about travel to Cardiff by train becoming ever more popular, whether for sporting events or just generally.

I think on aspect of RWC and Olympic event sis that fewer people are likely to want to be hanging around the city centre after an event before catching a train home. With a later kick off, that will be impossible for many, so the concentration of people in the queue will likely be higher than when there are more spectators able and willing to go for a drink or food before catching a train home, as might happen for a traditional afternoon 6N kick off, for example.

I think that my friends experiences reflect that. They don't tend to rush to the station as soon as the game concludes. They do tend to wait on the assumption that queues will die down later on. Therefore, they don;t have to wait for several hours in a queue!

I'd agree with you entirely. I can't speak for concerts and the like finishing late in the evening but have been to a good few rugby events at the Millennium Stadium over the years, both union and league, taking place mid to late afternoon/early evening and have spent say 80-90 minutes in a queue at the station a couple of times afterwards but on other occasions gone to visit friends in Cardiff and caught trains back to Bristol or Gloucester late evening after the queues have gone but when it is obvious many, if not most, passengers had been at the match as well, then, as you say, went for a drink or a meal before heading home.

The late finishes mean everyone makes a beeline for the station at once, then combine this with the clear growth in demand for rail travel and you get the results we have seen - which is why the people scheduling these events have to take their share of responsibility as well. As for the prices hotels have been/are asking in Cardiff on match nights, gouging their customers is a polite way of putting it and does nothing to encourage people to stop the night and travel the next morning or spend a bit longer in the city.

 

[Greenback]

The late finishes mean everyone makes a beeline for the station at once, then combine this with the clear growth in demand for rail travel and you get the results we have seen - which is why the people scheduling these events have to take their share of responsibility as well. As for the prices hotels have been/are asking in Cardiff on match nights, gouging their customers is a polite way of putting it and does nothing to encourage people to stop the night and travel the next morning or spend a bit longer in the city.

I agree with all of that. The TOC's get criticised, but they aren't the parties responsible for high hotel prices, late kick off times or the chronic shortage of rolling stock. I'm not saying that they are perfect in any way, but being told to 'sort it out' when there isn't really any way of doing that without disadvantaging other passengers somewhere along the way isn't really recognising the wider situation.

 

[PHILIPE]

RWC have arranged 80 coaches to help out at Cardiff to convey passengers to Bristol Parkway tomorrow night. ATW have organised large screens to show train info and will have further additional staff on site.

 

[bnm]

Clearly I need to go and have a lie-down.

Though why you think Mr Samuel's article is trash when - behind all the hyperbole - he takes basically the same line on GWR's actions/inactions over the past week-and-a-half as you, beats me. Ho hum.

Ahh... you see. His hyperbole is different to my hyperbole. Nuance and all that.

 

[D1009]

RWC have arranged 80 coaches to help out at Cardiff to convey passengers to Bristol Parkway tomorrow night. ATW have organised large screens to show train info and will have further additional staff on site.

Notices displayed all over Bristol Parkway station this morning to the effect of "Your return journey from Cardiff may be by replacement coach" without saying when or why.

 

[DarloRich]

I have noticed a fault with the World Cup Travel info: Milton Keynes Station is NOT The closest station to the Estadio Della Franchise. Fenny Stratford is