Birmingham New St to Manchester Picc

[GospelOak117]

Hi all,

I remembered that the Class 309's last days were spent running a New St to Piccadilly service for First North Western in the late 1990's, which ran in addition to the XC intercity services. it got me wondering, does a service only running between these two cities still exist today, or is that route now only serviced by Cross Country (and thus diesel) services?

 

[PHILIPE]

Hi all,

I remembered that the Class 309's last days were spent running a New St to Piccadilly service for First North Western in the late 1990's, which ran in addition to the XC intercity services. it got me wondering, does a service only running between these two cities still exist today, or is that route now only serviced by Cross Country (and thus diesel) services?

Only XC Voyagers now.

 

[GospelOak117]

Only XC Voyagers now.

Seems a shame that a dedicated outer suburban electric service doesn't exist also. Would be a nice run for some 350's (of the 2+2 seated variety) that. I guess the electric service died with the 309's as I can't see FNW ever having used 323s on the route.

 

[berneyarms]

Only XC Voyagers now.

Not quite right Philipe!

While not just running between the two cities, the 06:27 (Mon-Fri) Virgin Trains Manchester Piccadilly to London Euston does link them.

It runs via Stoke, Stafford, Wolverhampton and Birmingham New Street and is a Class 390 Pendolino.

 

[PHILIPE]

Not quite right Philipe!

While not just running between the two cities, the 06:27 (Mon-Fri) Virgin Trains Manchester Piccadilly to London Euston does link them.

It runs via Stoke, Stafford, Wolverhampton and Birmingham New Street and is a Class 390 Pendolino.

Hands up. Only one though !!!

 

[berneyarms]

Hands up. Only one though !!!

Ah but one is enough!!

 

[Bletchleyite]

Seems a shame that a dedicated outer suburban electric service doesn't exist also. Would be a nice run for some 350's (of the 2+2 seated variety) that. I guess the electric service died with the 309's as I can't see FNW ever having used 323s on the route.

I believe LM are interested in running to Manchester but I don't know how far they got with it.

 

[Mugby]

It is a little surprising how Manchester - Leeds gets four trains per hour but Manchester to Britain's second city gets only two!

 

[Senex]

It is a little surprising how Manchester - Leeds gets four trains per hour but Manchester to Britain's second city gets only two!

The thing that Manchester-Leeds services and Manchester-Birmingham services have in common is that they're very slow.

 

[LowLevel]

Seems a shame that a dedicated outer suburban electric service doesn't exist also. Would be a nice run for some 350's (of the 2+2 seated variety) that. I guess the electric service died with the 309's as I can't see FNW ever having used 323s on the route.

North Western 323s used to make it to Birmingham on a pretty regular basis, much as West Midlands ones used to run to Liverpool.

 

[Bletchleyite]

It is a little surprising how Manchester - Leeds gets four trains per hour but Manchester to Britain's second city gets only two!

Two often slightly more sensible lengths of train, to be fair (though only when the Voyagers are doubled up).

 

[Ash Bridge]

Seems a shame that a dedicated outer suburban electric service doesn't exist also. Would be a nice run for some 350's (of the 2+2 seated variety) that. I guess the electric service died with the 309's as I can't see FNW ever having used 323s on the route.

From the late sixties and through the seventies the Manchester Picc - Birmingham New St. (Via Stoke) semi-fasts were operated by the 310s and occasionally 304s.

 

[tbtc]

It is a little surprising how Manchester - Leeds gets four trains per hour but Manchester to Britain's second city gets only two!

Agreed

Five trains an hour from Manchester to Leeds at the moment (plus three via Rochdale that are all obviously overtaken enroute) - with a sixth on the Huddersfield route planned before long (admittedly replacing the Manchester - Huddersfield stopper, but will be a sixth train an hour from Manchester to Leeds).

I don't know why Manchester - Birmingham has been so badly treated over the years - only around seventy five miles apart (further, obviously, than Manchester to Leeds, but still ought to be "commuter" territory).

Maybe one reason for the neglect is that Manchester and Leeds are often tied together in a "Northern Powerhouse" kind of way (Osbourne's Powerhouse being just the latest version of plans to link cities "oop north" together - e.g. Prescott's Northern Way - https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/The_Northern_Way - am sure it won't be long until Corbyn comes up with some grand scheme of his own...).

Whereas Manchester to Birmingham links different English regions, so doesn't have a "champion"? Dunno.

HS2 will significantly improve things - bringing the journey time down to 42m between the cities - compared to roughly 1h30 today - but that shouldn't be an excuse not to improve things between Manchester and Birmingham sooner.

There are talks of linking the current Manchester - Stoke "stopper" further south, though that won't improve "end to end" journeys - its a step in the right direction at least. Otherwise, this is a seriously neglected market - a half hourly Voyager is a poor offering.

(also, on the subject of poor Birmingham links - Leicester has a terrible link to the West Midlands - given the size of them and the fact that they are only around thirty five miles apart)

 

[fowler9]

Liverpool to Birmingham only gets 2 trains per hour. Manchester also gets stopping services to Crewe which connect in to services to Birmingham. There is only finite capacity and I guess if demand was there then there would be a direct service.

 

[thenorthern]

I believe LM are interested in running to Manchester but I don't know how far they got with it.

IIRC it involved ambitious plans where the Euston to Crewe train was going to take the direct Stafford to Crewe line and then be extended onto Liverpool, one of the Birmingham to Liverpool trains was then going to be diverted away from Liverpool and to Preston, the Stoke to Manchester stopper would have transferred to London Midland and extended from Stoke to Birmingham making a Birmingham to Manchester stopper and finally the Manchester to Crewe stopper was to be extended to Stoke via Alsager.

In my opinion it would have worked out brilliantly as it would have meant that Stoke-on-Trent would have had a link to Manchester Airport, Stone would have had a link to Birmingham which IMO is more useful than London but the DFT rejected the proposals.

It is a little surprising how Manchester - Leeds gets four trains per hour but Manchester to Britain's second city gets only two!

With the Manchester to Leeds FTPE trains I think its just simply that the trains run through Leeds to get to their final destinations although most of the time when I have used them in the daytime they are moving mostly fresh air between Manchester and Leeds.

I agree though there should be more Manchester to Birmingham services particularly as they also serve as Stoke-on-Trent to Birmingham services but as others have pointed out capacity issues particularly between Norton Bridge Junction and Stafford Trent Valley Junction.

 

[Senex]

HS2 will significantly improve things - bringing the journey time down to 42m between the cities - compared to roughly 1h30 today - but that shouldn't be an excuse not to improve things between Manchester and Birmingham sooner.

CrossCountry wants to use the Stoke route between Manchester and Birmingham in order to serve Stoke, but this makes for a significantly slower connection between the two major cities than would be possible via the Crewe route. Would really fast Manchester-Birmingham services win enough extra traffic to outweigh the value of Stoke's traffic on the present XC trains?

(also, on the subject of poor Birmingham links - Leicester has a terrible link to the West Midlands - given the size of them and the fact that they are only around thirty five miles apart)

It is a dreadfully slow and tedious service, down both to the number of intermediate stops and the low-quality infrastructure between Nuneaton Abbey Street and Water Orton. The chances to get a better alignment at Whitacre and to improve the design of the junction at Water Orton to get higher speeds have both been passed up in recent years.

 

[Camden]

I think it is high time some place other than Manchester got some decent improvements for a change. Manchester to Birmingham will already be improved beyond all recognition (and certainly beyond any actual demanded need) with HS2 anyway.

West to East Midlands and beyond are shockers. At its fastest Birmingham to Leicester takes 51 minutes, usually even more, while the longer distance of Manchester to Leeds takes about the same time. The rolling stock is also not as good as that enjoyed by those travelling between Manchester and Leeds, and run at much lower frequencies too. Of course I realise that the northern trains are also in some cases serving Newcastle and Liverpool too, hence the crowding and the number of services, but it does seem that only the areas being kept in the public eye are being lined up for improvements, while other areas are just left to their own devices with no improvements in sight.

 

[LNW-GW Joint]

Part of the business case for Norton Bridge is to provide more paths from Birmingham to Manchester.
There are studies (RUS etc) which show that there is much pent up demand on the route.
The trouble just now is that the DfT has not said what it wants, so Norton Bridge is likely to be completed without any of the new capacity being used (except possibly the GNWR Blackpool service which wasn't in the DfT plan!).
Nothing has been said about the XC direct award and what changes are possible/desirable on the route.
As others have said, the fast route is via Crewe but nobody seems to want more trains that way.
Then the Crewe-Cheadle Hulme section is only 110mph and the freight people will say "no room, no room" if you put more paths in.
This section is equipped with very expensive reverse signalling. I'd be interested to know how often this has been used since it was installed.
Meanwhile the North Staffs route is difficult to regulate, and even after Norton Bridge is eliminated will still suffer from slow junctions at Stone, Kidsgrove and Cheadle Hulme.
Virgin has vacated one path between Birmingham and Wolverhampton, but it remains a bottleneck and dictates timetables far and wide.

 

[The Planner]

It is a dreadfully slow and tedious service, down both to the number of intermediate stops and the low-quality infrastructure between Nuneaton Abbey Street and Water Orton. The chances to get a better alignment at Whitacre and to improve the design of the junction at Water Orton to get higher speeds have both been passed up in recent years.

It isn't low quality, it was re-signalled with a mass of latent capacity as part of Water Orton re-signalling and has passive provision to allow 90mph. It doesn't help that Arley is steep and using 170s on it too. Change the rolling stock and you could immediately get gains. Whitacre isn't as easy as it looks and requires land take with a junction realignment with a loop. Water Orton is even worse. The only reason they have been left alone is that solutions were considered unaffordable.
--- old post above --- --- new post below ---

Meanwhile the North Staffs route is difficult to regulate, and even after Norton Bridge is eliminated will still suffer from slow junctions at Stone, Kidsgrove and Cheadle Hulme.

No reason why the XC cannot be speeded up after Norton Bridge as they should get out infront of the Virgin at Stone. Stone itself can be looked at too as the level crossing on the branch has gone but the curvature is the limit there.

 

[Senex]

It doesn't help that Arley is steep and using 170s on it too.

MR gradient profiles shew Arley with a ruling gradient of 1:125 one way and 1:126 the other (with very short steeper pitches in the westbound direction. Did that get worse with the mining subsidence that affected the line for so many years? If not,then it's not as steep as the trans-Pennine routes on which the 170s have been used, or indeed the Midland main line for which they were introduced. Or are the 170s just hopelessly underpowered for the sort of DMU performance we expect today?

Whitacre isn't as easy as it looks and requires land take with a junction realignment with a loop. Water Orton is even worse. The only reason they have been left alone is that solutions were considered unaffordable.

At least at Whitacre the land that would be needed is pretty well at railway level and not built on. Water Orton is indeed a quite different kettle of fish -- best answer there would be to close and demolish the station to get the space for a high-speed junction for both routes (at which point I duck and run because I'm blatantly putting the interests of inter-city travellers above those of the West Midlands commuters!).

Stone itself can be looked at too as the level crossing on the branch has gone but the curvature is the limit there.

Would anything be possible at Stone without some very expensive work indeed? The curve off the Norton Bridge line looks like a radius of less than 400 metres and it's into the back of a curve on the main line so that it already causes a reduction in speed on the principal route (though that's irrelevant at the moment because of the very long-standing 45 TSR on the main line for signal/crossing sighting).

 

[Nym]

It is a little surprising how Manchester - Leeds gets four trains per hour but Manchester to Britain's second city gets only two!

Why would Manchester need trains to Manchester? Aren't there trams for that?

 

[SeanG]

The trams are pitifully slow, plus I doubt people would be happy loosing their direct airprt service and changing onto one of Metrolink's finest

 

[Whistler40145]

Other options could be Manchester Airport to Birmingham New Street via Crewe, Shrewsbury and Wolverhampton, starting some services at Manchester Piccadilly. Another option would be to extend several of Northern Rail's Stoke terminating services through to Birmingham New Street, routed via Stafford and the Cannock Chase line.

I value you're comments on this.

 

[thenorthern]

I think a problem is with Manchester to Birmingham services is that given the choice of traveling via Crewe or via Stoke-on-Trent most operators would choose the latter given that its bigger.

This has meant that the line through Stoke-on-Trent and Macclesfield is carrying many many more trains than it was designed to do and thus there is no more capacity for more trains.

There is little need for another Crewe to Birmingham service given that there is already 3 per hour so realistically I can't see any operator wanting to add a Manchester to Crewe service and as I say there isn't the capacity to travel via Stoke-on-Trent.

Why would Manchester need trains to Manchester? Aren't there trams for that?

Very Funny.

 

[Whistler40145]

Maybe it would be worth extending the current Birmingham New Street to Rugeley/Stafford service to Manchester Airport via the new Norton Bridge flyover to Crewe via Stoke and Alsager?

 

[thenorthern]

Maybe it would be worth extending the current Birmingham New Street to Rugeley/Stafford service to Manchester Airport via the new Norton Bridge flyover to Crewe via Stoke and Alsager?

I think once the Chase Line electrification is completed London Midland have said there will be through trains from Walsall, from what I have heard there will be through trains to Liverpool but there may be to Manchester as well.

 

[The Planner]

Good luck getting any trains from Rugeley to Stafford to and from the Chase....

 

[thenorthern]

Good luck getting any trains from Rugeley to Stafford to and from the Chase....

Thats what I thought but somehow they plan to do it.

By the time that the Chase Line electrification is completed London Midland may no longer exist.

 

[323235]

Why would Manchester need trains to Manchester? Aren't there trams for that?

It already does every weekday via Glossop and Hadfield and vice versa in the peaks

 

[Starmill]

There are talks of linking the current Manchester - Stoke "stopper" further south, though that won't improve "end to end" journeys - its a step in the right direction at least. Otherwise, this is a seriously neglected market - a half hourly Voyager is a poor offering.

(also, on the subject of poor Birmingham links - Leicester has a terrible link to the West Midlands - given the size of them and the fact that they are only around thirty five miles apart)

It may be 2 trains an hour... but that isn't the same thing as a half-hourly service It's a 20-40 minute interval service all day from Manchester Piccadilly.
--- old post above --- --- new post below ---

With the Manchester to Leeds FTPE trains I think its just simply that the trains run through Leeds to get to their final destinations although most of the time when I have used them in the daytime they are moving mostly fresh air between Manchester and Leeds.

My bold; you haven't used this route in a good oooh 15 years then?