Penalty notice advice..

[island]

What is the legal standing of these vouchers that Northern sometimes dish out? Given there is no mention of them in the NRCoC does a customer have to accept one and can they suffer adversly if they did board at the unmanned station with no TVM. In the same way a customer could receive a voucher but loose it on the train (not this is not the same as loosing a ticket). Should they still be disadvantaged when they reach their first chance to buy a ticket?

Note: I do not believe that these vouchers are permits to travel (or are they).

They have no legal standing per se, but failure to possess one when they were being offered at the station at which you claim to have started your journey may be tendered as evidence tending to indicate a contravention of section 5 of the Regulation of Railways Act 1889.

 

[caffeinehigh]

If you mean the rule that you buy before boarding where facilities exist, I'd guess since the mid-1800's. The current wording of the Railway Byelaws are about 15 years old.

Give over. Nobody has ever said anything about buying from the booth before, no warning or notice, nothing, so it simply has not been enforced until recently.

 

[najaB]

Give over. Nobody has ever said anything about buying from the booth before, no warning or notice, nothing, so it simply has not been enforced until recently.

"I did not notice the signs" ≠ "There were no signs"

 

[Fare-Cop]

Give over. Nobody has ever said anything about buying from the booth before, no warning or notice, nothing, so it simply has not been enforced until recently.

Completely irrelevant I'm afraid - this has been raised so many times in the past. Ignorance of legislation is not a general defence to the charge, but might be put in mitigation in relation to a first offence.

 

[Greenback]

The rule about buying before boarding may have been inconsistently applied and enforced in the past, just as it is now, but it has definitely been enforced in some form since being introduced.

 

[yorkie]

Although the person that issued the ticket to me claimed that the rule has been in force for years, maybe it has but I'd never heard of it.

If you mean the rule that you buy before boarding where facilities exist, I'd guess since the mid-1800's. The current wording of the Railway Byelaws are about 15 years old.

In the 1980s the trains on this line were specifically marketed as 'Pay Trains', and even when that was abolished it was simply a case of 'full fare' tickets being sold on board. The previous franchise operator would have sold a full fare ticket to the OP without quibble.

 

[najaB]

The previous franchise operator would have sold a full fare ticket to the OP without quibble.

The current operator may also do so on occasion. Variation in enforcement doesn't mean that that the rules haven't existed for a very long time.

 

[DaveNewcastle]

Give over. Nobody has ever said anything about buying from the booth before, no warning or notice, nothing, so it simply has not been enforced until recently.

It has been. Regularly.

There have been thousands of prosecutions of passengers for "failing to produce a valid ticket when requested" and for travelling "without having previously paid his fare" over the past 150 years [with subtle variations in the wording over time].

 

[Skutter]

It has been. Regularly.

There have been thousands of prosecutions of passengers for "failing to produce a valid ticket when requested" and for travelling "without having previously paid his fare" over the past 150 years [with subtle variations in the wording over time].

There have also been millions of tickets sold to passengers onboard Northern trains in the same circumstances as the OP - many Northern customers would have no idea that you're not supposed to buy from the conductor.

 

[34D]

In the 1980s the trains on this line were specifically marketed as 'Pay Trains', and even when that was abolished it was simply a case of 'full fare' tickets being sold on board. The previous franchise operator would have sold a full fare ticket to the OP without quibble.

This was, of course, the status with the majority of the lines in the north of England in the 70s and 80s.

Indeed, I recall one of the 101 DMU retained such a black internal sticker into this millennia.

For anyone of current commuting age, they essentially never knew the previous regime at small stations.

 

[Fare-Cop]

many Northern customers would have no idea that you're not supposed to buy from the conductor.

Given that there appear to be more complaining threads on internet forums, consumer advice sites, press reports & complaints to TF about Northern's 'buy before you board, or risk a possible £80 administrative penalty' policy than the policies of any other TOC over the past couple of years, I doubt that is the case for the vast majority of their customers now.

 

[ainsworth74]

Given that there appear to be more complaining threads on internet forums, consumer advice sites, press reports & complaints to TF about Northern's 'buy before you board, or risk a possible £80 administrative penalty' policy than the policies of any other TOC over the past couple of years, I doubt that is the case for the vast majority of their customers now.

I disagree as I think it's very regional as Northern have been rolling it out in a very regional fashion.

Those users in Manchester (where Northern have been hot on revenue for a couple of years) are probably well aware of it at this point. Those in West Yorkshire until the last few months were used to the old Pay Train approach even where ticket facilities were provided and will now slowly be changing their behaviour.

However for those in Teesside, Tyneside, South and East Yorkshire I doubt there is much awareness of this as Northern are not enforcing the rules in those areas in the same way they are in the Manchester and West Yorkshire.

Certainly if you asked a train load of people getting of a Northern service at Middlesbrough or Darlington if they knew they should buy a ticket before travel where facilities are available I would gamble the vast majority would say something along the lines of 'can't I just get it from the guard?'.

I think there is a risk in your post of considering Northern to be a homogeneous entity where policies are implemented uniformly across the network. From this passengers perspective Northern in the North East are a very different company from Northern in Greater Manchester (and now West Yorkshire it seems).

 

[Fare-Cop]

I think there is a risk in your post of considering Northern to be a homogeneous entity where policies are implemented uniformly across the network. From this passengers perspective Northern in the North East are a very different company from Northern in Greater Manchester (and now West Yorkshire it seems).

I don't disagree with your assessment that there are apparent 'regional' differences within Northern's current RP activity, but what your comment seems to almost ignore is that users of internet forums, social media, readers of newspapers and TV & Radio reports are not constrained to such regionalisation.

Almost the whole rail travelling community had an opinion on the matter of the banker who repaid £43k to avoid prosecution, including the north of England, but that occurred in the extreme south of the country. The debates also highlighted what the rules are and especially the National Railway Byelaws.

Northern Rail is a single entity. Anyone travelling on Northern services might realistically expect that the policy & principle could be applied to their particular part of that company at any time.

 

[ainsworth74]

That's fair point (regarding social media and so on) however I stand by what I said earlier. I'd gamble a reasonable sum of money that a majority of passengers on Northern Rail trains in the North East would be shocked if you told them they couldn't buy the full range of tickets on board from the guard if they got on at a station where there were working issuing facilities.

 

[sheff1]

I'd gamble a reasonable sum of money that a majority of passengers on Northern Rail trains in the North East would be shocked if you told them they couldn't buy the full range of tickets on board from the guard if they got on at a station where there were working issuing facilities.

... and I would gamble a similar sum on the same being the case in South Yorkshire.

Northern Rail is a single entity. Anyone travelling on Northern services might realistically expect that the policy & principle could be applied to their particular part of that company at any time.

People solely used to travelling on Northern in S Yorks, would not recognise the regime in Greater Manchester. It is very noticeable on here, at least, that most 'issues' concerning Northern come from the GM area with, recently, an increasing number from W Yorks.

Teams of heavies threatening people at stations are something I have never seen in S Yorks. On the very rare occasions I have encounterd blocks at Sheffield the RPIs etc have been firm but polite, unlike some of the knuckle draggers I have witnessed in Manchester. And going back to the first point, people have been genuinely astonished when told at a Sheffield block that they need to purchase before boarding.

 

[Tetchytyke]

The previous franchise operator would have sold a full fare ticket to the OP without quibble.

But the operator before them, Northern Spirit, would have issued a Penalty Fare.

 

[Wallsendmag]

Certainly if you asked a train load of people getting of a Northern service at Middlesbrough or Darlington if they knew they should buy a ticket before travel where facilities are available I would gamble the vast majority would say something along the lines of 'can't I just get it from the guard?'.

I would hope most getting on at Darlington would twig they needed a ticket to get through the gates.

 

[yorkie]

But the operator before them, Northern Spirit, would have issued a Penalty Fare.

Not on the Harrogate line. It was a small area, but for more info on the Penalty Fare "shambles" under Arriva Trains Northern, see this post.

 

[crehld]

That's fair point (regarding social media and so on) however I stand by what I said earlier. I'd gamble a reasonable sum of money that a majority of passengers on Northern Rail trains in the North East would be shocked if you told them they couldn't buy the full range of tickets on board from the guard if they got on at a station where there were working issuing facilities.

... and I would gamble a similar sum on the same being the case in South Yorkshire.

I think you can add much of the Northern network to this list. TVMs at many northern stations are a relative novelty. The widespread culture is that it's ok to buy on the train.

To be fair to Northern they are currently running an advertising campaign to raise people's awareness about buying tickets before you board. This consists mainly of posters on station platforms telling people it's not ok to take a free ride.

However it suffers from the usual Northern problem: fantastic idea, very poor execution. I have witnessed many of these posters at unstaffed stations with no facilities, so the message is meaningless. Meanwhile at the staffed stations where this advertising campaign should be targeted it rarely has a presence at all.

 

[reb0118]

...I have witnessed many of these posters at unstaffed stations with no facilities, so the message is meaningless....

With my first reading of the above I agreed with you, however, upon further reflection I can see some (tenuous maybe) merit. It could be argued that most passengers, or at least a significant minority, from these stations are travelling to a station with ticket issuing facilities and that if for some reason, valid or otherwise, they have been unable to obtain a ticket on their outward journey then by reading the said poster, nothing much else to do at e.g. Bentham, they should at least know that there is an expectation that they should purchase one before their return.

Back in the real world however.........

 

[Tetchytyke]

Not on the Harrogate line. It was a small area

Yeah, I lived in Shipley at the time (it was introduced under Northern Spirit, not ATN) but I thought it also extended to the Harrogate line.