Penalty notice advice..

[caffeinehigh]

I just received a £80 fixed penalty notice in the post.. I'm not happy at all and have sent a dispute email to Northern Rail. Anyway here's the story if anyone knows what my chances are..

Back in August I got to Horsforth train station (I was travelling to Leeds its 3 stops) just as the train was arriving (I know I should get there earlier but I was running late). Anyway with no time to buy a ticket I jumped on. My thinking was that I would either buy one from the conductor or at the station (the ticket office is at the end of the platform before you go through any barriers or checks).

The train was absolutely packed to the point you couldn't move and so I didn't see a conductor and thought I would buy it from the ticket office as I had done in the past which used to be totally fine. Anyway I'm queuing up to buy the ticket for the journey I just made and when I asked for the ticket someone stood nearby listening in jumped over and pulled me aside. He explained I would be getting a "Failure to Purchase" said it wasn't a fine and that I would be getting a letter in the post about it within 7 days. I got in a bit of a polite debate with him explaining that it was silly I was being punished when I was at the booth buying the ticket. Also that the train was so packed I couldn't move so there was no chance of buying a ticket from a conductor, plus I never even saw one. He assured me there would have been one and if I wanted to complain I could. So I complained to Northern Rail about the incident and they just replied with a generic response as you would expect.

Anyway since then I never heard anything at all. Nothing in the post about it like he said. So I presumed either he or the person at Northern Rail I complained to saw my point of view and didn't process it.

Now to my surprise I came home tonight to find I have been given a fixed penalty notice of £80 plus the original £2.30!! Now I know I could have gone online and paid the fare but I am 100% certain he told me I would receive notice in the post to pay it. Plus like I said, I was queuing up to buy the ticket which used to be fine so I thought my point of view must have been seen.

Anyway thats my story. :cry:

 

[34D]

Morally I agree with you that this is wrong.

Legally (because of the archaic laws) this is your alternative to a criminal conviction under the Regulation of Railways Act 1889 with high three figure fine/costs/victim surcharge.

Advice is to pay it, then complain after.

 

[ainsworth74]

If there were functioning ticket issuing facilities at your origin then you should have bought your ticket from them before boarding train. Missing a train due to queuing is not an excuse in the view of the railways or legislation under which they operate. Northern Rail would, in fact, be within their rights to prosecute you for travelling without a ticket and would likely have a high chance of success as an offence is committed when entering a train for the purposes of travel.

Unfortunately then going to buy a ticket is not a defence when there were ticket issuing facilities that you could have used at your origin.

As annoying as it may be you would probably be best served by paying the amount that Northern Rail have requested.

 

[Tetchytyke]

Pay the amount- as legally Northern are right- but take the matter to Passenger Focus. They're normally as much use as a chocolate teapot but they have been scathing about Northern several times in the recent past.

 

[najaB]

I just received a £80 fixed penalty notice in the post.. I'm not happy at all and have sent a dispute email to Northern Rail. Anyway here's the story if anyone knows what my chances are..

Horsforth has both a ticket office and ticket vending machine, so your fare was due before boarding. Not really any other advice I can give other than to pay up.
--- old post above --- --- new post below ---

Morally I agree with you that this is wrong.

So you don't agree that passing an open ticket office and ticket vending machine should be penalised?

 

[HMS Ark Royal]

Morally I agree with you that this is wrong.

Legally (because of the archaic laws) this is your alternative to a criminal conviction under the Regulation of Railways Act 1889 with high three figure fine/costs/victim surcharge.

Would that be the oldest railway regulation/law still in force apart from the parly rules?

Slightly off topic, but what would the OP be expected to do if the ticket office was not working, the ticket machines were not working and the guard's onboard machine was inoperative?

 

[najaB]

Slightly off topic, but what would the OP be expected to do if the ticket office was not working, the ticket machines were not working and the guard's onboard machine was inoperative?

They would be entitled to purchase at Leeds as that would be their first opportunity.

 

[caffeinehigh]

Horsforth has both a ticket office and ticket vending machine, so your fare was due before boarding. Not really any other advice I can give other than to pay up.
--- old post above --- --- new post below ---
So you don't agree that passing an open ticket office and ticket vending machine should be penalised?

It does indeed have an office and machine. Like I said I was running late and jumped on which, yeah, I should have got there earlier. But to be honest I didn't see an issue with it. I made no attempt to fayre dodge, didn't lie about my origin and was attempting to buy the ticket when I was pulled up on it. What's the harm, they were still going to get their money, just at one end of the line and not the other.

 

[yorkie]

Ignore the terminology they're using.

You are unlikely to be accused of deliberately avoding the fare, but they are offering you - by whatever name they want to invent - an out of court settlement.

If you agree to pay the settlement, the matter is over.

If a settlement is not reached, then Northern may bring the matter before a Court, and if you are charged with a strict liability Byelaw 18 offence, what you've said above means you are effectively admitting guilt of that, so it would probably be a straightforward non-recordable conviction.

I hate Byelaw 18 and I personally believe it should be abolished, but I wouldn't like to recommend you fight against it. I'd pay it and complain to your MP about it.

More information regarding relevant legislation is available in our RailUK Fares & Ticketing Guide - Section 8 - Legal

 

[gray1404]

I am afraid you should have brought the ticket before boarding because this was possible at the station you travelled from. You are lucky they are giving you the chance to settle this matter out of court. Learn a lesson from this and pay up. If Northern choose to take this matter to court, you could end up in a much worse situation so, as advised above, pay up and let this be a lesson to you.

I too do not like Byelaw 18 in the slightest and wish it would be rid of. However, it is a present reality and I am sure you would like to avoid this matter being taken to court given you really should have bought your ticket before travel.

 

[yorkie]

... You are lucky they are giving you the chance to settle this matter out of court....

Not really, this is very standard. I'd say it was more bad luck that there was a revenue block that day. It's normal practice for people to pay on the train on the Harrogate Line - a practice Northern HQ wish to end, but which many of the Guards probably do not want ended as it would reduce their commission. The trains used to be called "Pay Trains". So it's hardly surprising people are unhappy and very surprised when they get such demands. Further discussion on this matter is best in Northern's £80 settlements and lack of incentive for Northern to provide facilities though!

 

[caffeinehigh]

Ignore the terminology they're using.

You are unlikely to be accused of deliberately avoding the fare, but they are offering you - by whatever name they want to invent - an out of court settlement.

If you agree to pay the settlement, the matter is over.

If a settlement is not reached, then Northern may bring the matter before a Court, and if you are charged with a strict liability Byelaw 18 offence, what you've said above means you are effectively admitting guilt of that, so it would probably be a straightforward non-recordable conviction.

I hate Byelaw 18 and I personally believe it should be abolished, but I wouldn't like to recommend you fight against it. I'd pay it and complain to your MP about it.

More information regarding relevant legislation is available in our RailUK Fares & Ticketing Guide - Section 8 - Legal

Thank you for the information. The letter states I have 14 days from the date of the letter to pay, which is conveniently already 7 days in! Must have used the slowest post known to man.

If I have to pay I will fight for it back.

 

[DaveNewcastle]

This is all off-topic so I'll be brief:

Would that be the oldest railway regulation/law still in force apart from the parly rules?

No! There are 5 or 6 others which were enacted before 1889.

Slightly off topic, but what would the OP be expected to do if the ticket office was not working, the ticket machines were not working and the guard's onboard machine was inoperative?

To buy at the first opportunity - whereever that is; perhaps at a ticket booth at their destination exactly as in the scenario described by caffeinehigh here.

 

[yorkie]

If I have to pay I will fight for it back.

My strong advice to you is to pay it ASAP. There's nothing to stop you trying to fight for it back, contacting your MP, contacting Transport Focus, and complaining to Northern, though I wouldn't like to rate what your chances of success will be. However, please do let us know how you get on!

 

[gray1404]

Not really, this is very standard. I'd say it was more bad luck that there was a revenue block that day.

I disagree. Northern may dish out a lot of these £80 letters but the TOC is under no duty whatsoever you to offer an out of court settlement so they must not be taken for granted. Thankfully they are not proceeding to Court already.
--- old post above --- --- new post below ---

My strong advice to you is to pay it ASAP. There's nothing to stop you trying to fight for it back...

I agree. Pay it ASAP and within the time limit.

 

[34D]

Horsforth has both a ticket office and ticket vending machine, so your fare was due before boarding. Not really any other advice I can give other than to pay up.
--- old post above --- --- new post below ---
So you don't agree that passing an open ticket office and ticket vending machine should be penalised?

This thread isn't the place for my opinions, but this passenger does not deserve to be criminalised for their actions in queueing up at Leeds in my personal view.

I've started a separate thread

 

[Mag_seven]

Anyway I'm queuing up to buy the ticket for the journey I just made and when I asked for the ticket someone stood nearby listening in jumped over and pulled me aside.

Was this before any barrier with ticket checks that might have been in force at Leeds or could you have walked out the station if you had wanted?

 

[Smidster]

This is the type of case Northern need to think about very carefully.

Surely the lesson from this situation, and others on the forum, is that either say as little as possible or downright lie. If the OP had said he had travelled from another station, without ticketing facilities, then all would be fine. As it is he is a criminal?

Sure he should have bought a ticket before travel but there needs to be a certain degree of common sense applied - he was not trying to avoid payment and is going through all this for the crime of running a bit late.

 

[Tetchytyke]

Was this before any barrier with ticket checks that might have been in force at Leeds or could you have walked out the station if you had wanted?

The Excess Fares window at Leeds is some distance away from the barriers, over to one side. There is no way that someone attempting to evade a fare would find themselves anywhere near the Excess Fares window.

As I said in the other thread, ironically if the OP had actually tried to tailgate out of the station, the chances are he wouldn't have been noticed or stopped.

Northern Rail, punishing honesty since 2005.

 

[Islineclear3_1]

I agree the system is unfair as you went straight to the ticket office at your destination to buy a ticket which proves you hadn't intended to avoid paying. And as always stated on here, a PF is issued for an "honest mistake". You did not make a mistake (other than not arriving earlier at your origin station to buy your ticket before boarding) so can understand why you feel aggrieved.

Unfortunately, the railway doesn't work on a "travel first, buy later" system so chalk this down to (a bad) experience and pay the fine. But feel free to make a formal complaint to the TOC/Transport Focus, or whatever and see what happens.

The railway is very black and white with regard to ticketing...if you do not travel without a ticket, then you can get done.

Please heed the expert advice on here and pay now before it escalates. Send it registered/recorded delivery

 

[talldave]

...
The railway is very black and white with regard to ticketing...if you do not travel without a ticket, then you can get done....

Have you got your black and white reversed??

 

[Islineclear3_1]

Have you got your black and white reversed??

? am I missing something ?

 

[talldave]

? am I missing something ?

You said "if you do not travel without a ticket, then you can get done.".

If you do not travel without a ticket, then you're travelling with a ticket. So you're saying you can get done for traveling with a ticket .

I think you meant "if you travel without a ticket, then you can get done."?

 

[bb21]

This is the type of case Northern need to think about very carefully.

Surely the lesson from this situation, and others on the forum, is that either say as little as possible or downright lie. If the OP had said he had travelled from another station, without ticketing facilities, then all would be fine. As it is he is a criminal?

Sure he should have bought a ticket before travel but there needs to be a certain degree of common sense applied - he was not trying to avoid payment and is going through all this for the crime of running a bit late.

To lie? No. Terrible suggestion.

All will be fine until the passenger finds out that Northern were doing a revenue block that day at said station, and suddenly this becomes a nailed on fare evasion case.

 

[6Gman]

This is the type of case Northern need to think about very carefully.

Surely the lesson from this situation, and others on the forum, is that either say as little as possible or downright lie. If the OP had said he had travelled from another station, without ticketing facilities, then all would be fine. As it is he is a criminal?

Sure he should have bought a ticket before travel but there needs to be a certain degree of common sense applied - he was not trying to avoid payment and is going through all this for the crime of running a bit late.

1. He is not being made a criminal. He is being asked to pay an out of court settlement.

2. If he had followed your advice, to "downright lie", then he would be a criminal.

Terrible advice.

 

[DaveNewcastle]

To lie? No. Terrible suggestion.

Terrible advice.

I agree.

 

[yorkie]

... If the OP had said he had travelled from another station, without ticketing facilities, then all would be fine.....

if there was a revenue block or vouchers being issued at "another station", lying would almost certainly lead to a criminal conviction under the Regulation of Railways Act! Perhaps you've not seen the threads about exactly that scenario.

I understand your concerns but lying isn't the solution and is not something we could condone.

 

[caffeinehigh]

Was this before any barrier with ticket checks that might have been in force at Leeds or could you have walked out the station if you had wanted?

As Arctic Troll said the excess fares office is off to the far left of the station. I hadn't been to the barriers yet. I got off the train, walked straight over to the excess fares office and asked for the ticket for the journey I just made. That's when I was pulled to the side.

Doing that on the Harrogate line is common. Although the person that issued the ticket to me claimed that the rule has been in force for years, maybe it has but I'd never heard of it. They should be using their resources catching people jumping barriers, or dodging conductors on the train for a free ride. Not earwigging at the side of the office for people about to pay.

Anyway no updates yet. No reply at all from Northern Rail to my dispute email.

 

[najaB]

Although the person that issued the ticket to me claimed that the rule has been in force for years, maybe it has but I'd never heard of it.

If you mean the rule that you buy before boarding where facilities exist, I'd guess since the mid-1800's. The current wording of the Railway Byelaws are about 15 years old.

 

[gray1404]

What is the legal standing of these vouchers that Northern sometimes dish out? Given there is no mention of them in the NRCoC does a customer have to accept one and can they suffer adversly if they did board at the unmanned station with no TVM. In the same way a customer could receive a voucher but loose it on the train (not this is not the same as loosing a ticket). Should they still be disadvantaged when they reach their first chance to buy a ticket?

Note: I do not believe that these vouchers are permits to travel (or are they).