Northern Rail Weekend Rover - must purchase before boarding?

[clagmonster]

Having slept on it last night and thought about this in more detail, I am now inclined towards the opinion that Northern may have ballsed this offer up.

Neil pointed out that London Midland made explicit mention of the requirement to purchase the Great Escape ticket prior to travelling with it, in advance if necessary, effectively putting a booking deadline on the ticket, which in my opinion would fall under Condition 1c, thereby overriding the entitlement under Condition 3, since a passenger, having joined a train, would have automatically gone past the booking deadline. (Similar to Advance fares in many ways if you like.)

I was certainly under the impression that Northern did too. Having examined their terms in detail, I cannot however find it. The only condition relevant to Northern's latest offer is that the ticket must be purchased from a ticket office, but this is not contradictory to Condition 3. There is no explicit booking deadline, or any requirement to purchase in advance, then I find it impossible to argue that the passenger must purchase the ticket in advance of travel should the ticket office be closed on the day of departure, as Condition 3 is worded to cater for exactly such a scenario, with the only diffference being that onboard staff have no facility to issue such a ticket, implying that such a ticket must therefore be purchased at the other end of the journey, or at an interchange station.

I think I know what Northern meant to say in the terms and conditions of this offer, as I am pretty sure that they used to, but they didn't actually say it, unfortunately.

Ironically this meant that the Northern guard, strictly speaking, was correct. The blame lies with EMT whose ticket office staff did not act in line with Condition 3, but I am not sue what they were supposed to do seeing that no mechanism exists for EMT to refund a ticket sold by Northern, unless in times of disruption.

This then brings me to another of my point, similar to yorkie's, that Condition 3 is not fit for purpose.

I am still not 100% sure, but I think the above reasoning makes most sense to me.

I agree with this analysis but have just one small point. Was there an accessible, functioning TVM at Stockport which would have taken the desired payment type. If so, then surely the condition 3 part fare should have been paid to the machine.
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Why is the weekend rover more pricey then the weekday?

The weekend ticket is valid for both days of the weekend. The day ticket, which can be used on any day of the week, is only valid for one day.

 

[HMS Ark Royal]

The weekend ticket is valid for both days of the weekend. The day ticket, which can be used on any day of the week, is only valid for one day.

Really? Thats unclear in the terms of the offer. So I could travel on both Sat and Sun on the same ticket/card?

 

[bb21]

I agree with this analysis but have just one small point. Was there an accessible, functioning TVM at Stockport which would have taken the desired payment type. If so, then surely the condition 3 part fare should have been paid to the machine.

I suppose so, but if the guard were happy to take a part fare, I see no issue with that.

 

[najaB]

Really? Thats unclear in the terms of the offer. So I could travel on both Sat and Sun on the same ticket/card?

The page linked by CyrusWuff in post #3 says, in part:

Unlimited rail travel
£10 for one day or £17.50 for a weekend

This seems pretty clear to me.

 

[HMS Ark Royal]

I didn't know if it was simply because it was valid from an earlier time.

With regards to the OP, I fail to see what the problem is

 

[Ianigsy]

I nearly fell foul of this the weekend before last- going to Menston about 20 mins before the train and intending to go to Ribblehead, I downloaded the form, stuck my tokens to it and filled it in the night before. Only to find the ticket office at Menston hadn't opened yet because somebody had rung in sick, so I ended up waiting until about 5 minutes before the train was due to leave and the replacement booking clerk had had time to set everything up. The alternatives would either have been to have bought a single to Shipley and tried there, or a return to Ribblehead for £20-odd against £10 for the ticket I wanted to buy.

I suspect that if you pressed Northern on this then they'd simply send you one of their letters with a complimentary day ranger at the bottom as it's simpler than having to explain themselves. The downloaded forms get stamped with the station of issue so presumably are reconciled at some point and Northern collect some money from Johnston Press based on the total number issued- I'm guessing that there's something in the reconciliation process that means they can't be issued by guards on trains, not least that the guard would have to carry each completed form around for the whole of their shift.

 

[Bletchleyite]

I don't agree that it only applies to tickets that can be excessed

As worded Condition 3 applies to any ticket. However, I think *in practice* because of the limitations you identify it only works where an excess is a suitable way to solve it.

 

[Starmill]

I don't think Condition 3 was fit for purpose the day it was written. It is almost never honored.

 

[najaB]

I don't think Condition 3 was fit for purpose the day it was written. It is almost never honored.

It is honoured almost every day - when people buy a single and then part exchange it for a monthly or longer season ticket.

 

[yorkie]

It is honoured almost every day - when people buy a single and then part exchange it for a monthly or longer season ticket.

Ok but that is the exception to the rule. But, otherwise, the point still stands!

 

[gray1404]

I've just had a look online at Northern's terms and conditions of this offer. It says: Affix two tokens from participating newspapers to the application form and take to any staffed station within the Northern Rail network. The tickets for this offer cannot be purchased on trains.

The problem I have here is that Northern have clearly said that the tickets for this offer cannot be brought on board trains.

 

[HMS Ark Royal]

I've just had a look online at Northern's terms and conditions of this offer. It says: Affix two tokens from participating newspapers to the application form and take to any staffed station within the Northern Rail network. The tickets for this offer cannot be purchased on trains.

The problem I have here is that Northern have clearly said that the tickets for this offer cannot be brought on board trains.

How is this a problem?

 

[gray1404]

How is this a problem?

Because for the OP, it could be argued that Northern have acted within the scope of the terms and conditions of this offer. It also meants that the guard of board could not sell the ticket it all. It basically means that for people starting at stations with out a ticket office then they really have no option but to get it before travel (can be done upto 3 days ahead according to the terms).

I do think that the terms and conditions are written in such a way whereby they are clear enough.

 

[HMS Ark Royal]

Because for the OP, it could be argued that Northern have acted within the scope of the terms and conditions of this offer. It also meants that the guard of board could not sell the ticket it all. It basically means that for people starting at stations with out a ticket office then they really have no option but to get it before travel (can be done upto 3 days ahead according to the terms).

I do think that the terms and conditions are written in such a way whereby they are clear enough.

I also thought it was clear enough - if you can't get it at a staffed station, contact the company who will make arraingments

 

[Harpers Tate]

Is that really the case - no mechanism - or is it that they actually CAN, but prefer not to have to do so. Surely the very presence of this condition absolutely requires them to do so (at least in wholly unambiguous cases).

This was my point precisely:

It is honoured almost every day - when people buy a single and then part exchange it for a monthly or longer season ticket.

Every time this occurs when the two TOCs involved differ - the one selling the part ticket and the one exchanging it - then presumably there IS a mechanism in place for cross-company settlement. Isn't there? In which case (without debating exactly what the day/weekend rover T&C mean) there is no PRACTICAL difference here. Is there?

 

[34D]

Every time this occurs when the two TOCs involved differ - the one selling the part ticket and the one exchanging it - then presumably there IS a mechanism in place for cross-company settlement. Isn't there? In which case (without debating exactly what the day/weekend rover T&C mean) there is no PRACTICAL difference here. Is there?

Surely the first ticket is just either excessed, or else treated as a 'voucher' payment instead of cash or card?

Interesting question though.

I doubt that the first ticket is actually cancelled, as at the time it was a legitimate sale.

 

[Bletchleyite]

It would be an *awful* lot easier if excessing were simplified more generally in that way - simply take the value of the ticket being traded in and offset it against the value of the replacement ticket, provided, if any travel has been undertaken, both the old and new tickets cover the journey made so far. The receiving TOC, if not the same, could submit the ticket to the original TOC for a credit of its face value.

The £10 admin fee could still apply in some cases, e.g. if the new ticket was for a different date.

 

[Tetchytyke]

Neil pointed out that London Midland made explicit mention of the requirement to purchase the Great Escape ticket prior to travelling with it

Neil is incorrect.

The terms from the most recent offer, in February 2015, say this:

To obtain your ticket(s), you will need to hand in your Great Escape voucher (and pay the appropriate fare) at any ticket office on the London Midland network from 2 February 2015. You won't be able to pay for Great Escape tickets over the telephone or online, and no tickets will be issued at stations without a voucher. If you are exchanging your voucher on the day of travel and there are no ticket office facilities at your station, you may purchase your ticket from the conductor on board the train

https://web.archive.org/web/2015021.../great-escape/great-escape/great-escape-form/

Which makes me wonder why Northern cannot issue the ticket on board.

 

[Bletchleyite]

That has I think changed then, I must have been looking at an earlier version of the T&Cs.

 

[Tetchytyke]

That has I think changed then, I must have been looking at an earlier version of the T&Cs.

It may well have changed, given the number of London Midland ticket offices which no longer seem to open on Saturday mornings due to "staff shortages".

 

[bb21]

Neil is incorrect.

The terms from the most recent offer, in February 2015, say this:



https://web.archive.org/web/2015021.../great-escape/great-escape/great-escape-form/

Which makes me wonder why Northern cannot issue the ticket on board.

Haha isn't our railway wonderful.

 

[Starmill]

Ok but that is the exception to the rule. But, otherwise, the point still stands!

It was an easy way to contradict me just for the hell of it.

I wonder why some people seem to take a perverted pleasure in doing that?

 

[Jonfun]

I don't see any "perverted pleasure". You said that the condition was never used, and someone pointed out you were wrong?

 

[najaB]

I don't see any "perverted pleasure". You said that the condition was never used, and someone pointed out you were wrong?

I wasn't trying to prove starmill wrong per se, but pointed out that while the range of circumstances to which Condition 3 is currently applied might be limited, the number of times it is applied is not. When PERTIS machines were more common it was much more frequently used. The advent of fuller-featured TVMs has made it less relevant but that is not consistent with the claim that it 'wasn't fit for purpose the day it was written'.

 

[wellwhatitis]

London Midland's "Great Escape" is similar - it MUST be purchased from a ticket office. It is made clear that you MUST arrange to visit a ticket office before travel with your online printed voucher before you travel. If you don't do that, you don't get the exceptional special offer. I'm not sure how that differs from an online special offer also not available on the train.

Provided this is made clear in the publicity, which for London Midland it is, I don't see why there is an issue with this.

You can't buy Railcards on the train either, nor did you used to be able to buy annual season tickets (though maybe you now can, I don't know). It doesn't seem to me to be different to either of those cases.

Correct. But due to LM's current unavailability of Ticket Offices on most routes, and the fact the Great Escape is much cheaper than the appropriate single fare that the passenger may need to pay instead, Guards will give them to people on the train if they have boarded somewhere that was closed and they have the voucher with them. It expressly says in the instructions on the voucher that if the station is unstaffed upon boarding, the Guard will issue it, and we do.

 

[Bletchleyite]

Correct. But due to LM's current unavailability of Ticket Offices on most routes, and the fact the Great Escape is much cheaper than the appropriate single fare that the passenger may need to pay instead, Guards will give them to people on the train if they have boarded somewhere that was closed and they have the voucher with them. It expressly says in the instructions on the voucher that if the station is unstaffed upon boarding, the Guard will issue it, and we do.

Yes, I stand corrected on that one.