Southern (and other TOCs) - crew unavailable

[FordFocus]

I've seen some companies have RDW sanctioned for years provided they can prove to ASLEF that there is a need for it such as training, covering of long term sick, increase in work because of transfer of work form another TOC.

Some places don't have official RDW sanctions as I believe the workforce is more divided between RMT and ASLEF.

Spares should be there to cover exactly that redbutton, off track, sickness, annual leave (particularly when it's all on one shift). TOCs see spare and cover turns as easy targets to save money and will do a lot to reduce it or won't be in urgent need to cover the vacancies. When the numbers drop too much it gets to the begging stage of rosters ringing peoples phones to get them to come into work, even the people that haven't worked a rest day in 20 years.

It's happening more frequently, especially now the majority of drivers are in the 40% tax bracket, they won't be a keen on coming in on their days off working poor, intensive diagrams in the name of 'efficiently'.

 

[TheNewNo2]

From http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-england-sussex-34262038:

Rail companies should be fined for cancellations caused by staff "no shows", a Sussex MP has said.

Sir Nicholas Soames, who represents Mid Sussex, said he had spoken to Transport Secretary Patrick McLoughlin urging the measure.

He said: "There have been too many cases where passengers on the railway are treated extremely disrespectfully by staff simply not turning up."

A Southern Rail spokeswoman said there were "many reasons why this happens".

Sir Nicholas said: "Where the rail companies allow this to happen they should be fined for it, because I think if you consider how expensive it is to travel on the train it is a contract between the passenger and the rail operator.

"And it is one which the rail operator regularly breaks."

I can't help but think this is an idiotic idea. It's not like the TOC doesn't lose money if there's no train, fining them for something which is outside their control seems counter-productive.

 

[Domh245]

It would be fining them for running diagrams that are too tight and impractical to run in the real world. The threat of sufficient hefty fines might force TOCs to consider running diagrams that are actually real-world-proof.

 

[HH]

Tracsis by any chance? Seen that churn out some unbelievable diagramming which buggered up several diagrams if the first train was more than 5 minutes late. Missed travelling PASS trains, late PNBs, unable to relieve people in time

No, not Tracsis. Tracsis works fine, but you have to set the parameters correctly. Like most software, it's garbage in, garbage out. This was some new Dutch stuff, called Qintiq or something similar. They were promised the world, but the software was too complex and too slow.

When I've sat in driver LLC meetings management and the staff side have always put manpower plan on the agenda. Sometimes it's a quick 10 second no retirements, no vacancies and that's it or it's been a massive change in the link because of an increase in work that can take longer to calculate. I take it FCC never had these sort of meetings? 18 months is a shocking amount of time to clock this?

Like you say, FCC can't turn up at Aberdeen HQ and blame the local reps for not alerting them to a looming driver shortage crisis when you pay ops managers and directors 50k+ to manage these sort of things

As you can imagine, finding out exactly what happened was impossible, as no-one was admitting anything. Let's just say when asked where the manpower plan was, the entire Operations Senior Management just looked blank. The problem was that few people outside Ops understand its importance. When they did, the Ops Director and the Chief Driver Manager both lost their jobs over it.

Building a roster on RDW will always be risky, especially with driver grades when ASLEF can withdraw a RDW agreement within a weeks notice. Coupled with the insulting 0% pay rise ordered from Scotland and we then saw the result of Firsts fine mess of no staff, emergency timetables, MPs asking questions, DfT improvement notices. Bus company management that haven't a clue on how it actually works on the coalface

I agree; RDW should really be a last resort, not something built-in. The problem was that not a single Ops manager appeared to understand rosters either.

 

[tsr]

From http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-england-sussex-34262038:



I can't help but think this is an idiotic idea. It's not like the TOC doesn't lose money if there's no train, fining them for something which is outside their control seems counter-productive.

From what I can make out, Sir Nicholas Soames is pretty blatantly "anti-Southern" in sentiment, and is quick to criticise, but not the brightest spark in the world when it comes to understanding railway operations. Such a comment woefully overlooks the wider problems, which are starting to be amply described by this thread. Regrettably, it would appear that there is a certain blinkering of views of this gentleman, and it is unfortunately trumpeted as a good thing by some of the serial complainers on social media (not to mention, on fewer occasions, the press).

It does happen that staff fail to turn up without notice, but if there's no good reason, they are liable to be lynched by both their colleagues and management, and quite rightly so. It is rare compared to those suffering from sickness or stress and needing leave, taking compassionate leave and so on, which I am sure Sir Nick would be obliged to speak out to protect, should one of his constituents be a Southern employee who was unfairly acted against at work as a result of such circumstances.

 

[Bald Rick]

From http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-england-sussex-34262038:



I can't help but think this is an idiotic idea. It's not like the TOC doesn't lose money if there's no train, fining them for something which is outside their control seems counter-productive.

Err, they already are 'fined' for every train that is cancelled or delayed due to train crew in availability. Three times (in a fashion):

1) to DfT through the franchise contract
2) to NR through the track access contract
3) to passengers through delay repay, if the cancellation results in a journey delay of more than 30 minutes. Which in Mid Sussex it normally does.

So is this an MP proposing something that already happens?

 

[sarahj]

Its the 'not turning up for work' bit that gets me. Its not that we are not turning up for work when rostered, its the fact that there are too many jobs and not enough staff. RDW often relies on a few working large amounts of OT. Sometimes just one or two being OT can mean loads of uncovered jobs. Its getting so tight that staff are being moved up links, but not been given the time off to learn the extra routes in that link. The backlog has reached massive proportions in some depots. and it then goes around that jobs are uncovered as no one is spare to work the route.

 

[HarleyDavidson]

Our lot think that we should just be at beck & call for RDW, you make yourself available, but they won't tell you whether you're going to work until just 24-36 hrs before, needless to say that idea has met with the cold shoulder from many drivers and this list of available for RDW has dropped from over 20 to about 5 or 6.

Like I said I don't work RD's and all I do is what I'm obliged to do within my day and that's it. With ordinary OT & RDW paid at basic rate, I'm not interested as it's not worth my while, enforced OT is worth it as it's paid @ Tx1¼, but that only happens when the service is seriously "up the creek".

 

[tony6499]

Its the 'not turning up for work' bit that gets me. Its not that we are not turning up for work when rostered, its the fact that there are too many jobs and not enough staff. RDW often relies on a few working large amounts of OT. Sometimes just one or two being OT can mean loads of uncovered jobs. Its getting so tight that staff are being moved up links, but not been given the time off to learn the extra routes in that link. The backlog has reached massive proportions in some depots. and it then goes around that jobs are uncovered as no one is spare to work the route.

And wanting Conductors to work RD's for flat hours is hardly likely to get people hammering on the door to do so
--- old post above --- --- new post below ---

I agree; RDW should really be a last resort, not something built-in. The problem was that not a single Ops manager appeared to understand rosters either.

The trouble is that far too many managers were brought in from outside the industry and had no clue about diagrams, rostering and all the components. It's not something you can learn about in weeks or even do a course, either you understand how it works and that takes years or you try and muddle through and end up bluffing that you do which seems to be the case now.

 

[A-driver]

First had this wonderful new software that they thought would save 5% of diagrams. Except that it never properly worked and wasn't even ready to try for another three years. But even that wasn't the direct cause of why they ended up short of drivers. It was soon realised that the software wouldn't be ready in time.



They were short of drivers because FCC Operations stopped doing a Manpower Plan and that meant that they stopped hiring trainees. Not a single Operations Manager, including two Operations Directors, happened to notice this for about 18 months - it took an outside person to notice it. No doubt they blamed it on FirstGroup; they were hardly going to tell the Union reps it was their fault now, were they?







It's easily possible to devise a roster that causes overtime to be needed. Hitchin was a fine example. The rest days were unbalanced such that were more spares than needed on Monday-Wednesday and not enough on Friday & Saturday. RDW would be needed on Fri/Sat even if you had a full complement of drivers. I believe that the Union reps put together those rosters.

The roster you refer to was put together by reps in a rush as, where as drivers need 2 weeks notice of rest day changes (which considering the change is a few weeks before Xmas is a big change for many) and the train planning team took too long to finalise diagrams meaning the rosters could not be out together until past the deadline. We were literally hours away from emergency rostering being imposed.

 

[158801]

I used to work in a shop.

There were probably a dozen staff on duty at any one time. Quite often people would go sick.

You'd then have 11 or 10 staff. You would probably not notice. There'd be less staff to help you with your purchase and you may have to wait a bit longer at the check out.

The railway will have "spare" staff. This can be upto 30% of the workforce. So 30 staff are required to run the trains on any given day but they have 40 staff. Those ten extra staff cover holidays, sickness etc. if an eleventh person goes I'll at short notice then unfortunately a train gets cancelled.

 

[A-driver]

http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-england-sussex-34262038

This article is particularly relevant here. Shame the MP shows a total lack of understanding what he's on about-tocs are already fined for this!

 

[HarleyDavidson]

http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-england-sussex-34262038

This article is particularly relevant here. Shame the MP shows a total lack of understanding what he's on about-tocs are already fined for this!

You should remember that the Conservative party is a bit like a west country cream tea, in that it's rich, thick & full of clots!

 

[HH]

The roster you refer to was put together by reps in a rush as, where as drivers need 2 weeks notice of rest day changes (which considering the change is a few weeks before Xmas is a big change for many) and the train planning team took too long to finalise diagrams meaning the rosters could not be out together until past the deadline. We were literally hours away from emergency rostering being imposed.

Don't get me started on the train planners...

 

[physics34]

i hope that turnaround times on southern will be changing for the better from decembers new timetable.

 

[A-driver]

i hope that turnaround times on southern will be changing for the better from decembers new timetable.

Turnaround times only ever change in one direction! As does all diagram productivity!

 

[Carlisle]

And wanting Conductors to work RD's for flat hours is hardly likely to get people hammering on the door to do so

Unlike some years ago, I don't think you'll find many jobs out there as a new starter these days that'll pay you regular overtime, Sunday's and RDWs at a significantly enhanced rate, not saying it's right , just thats the way it is at many workplaces right now

 

[306024]

.......Tracsis works fine, but you have to set the parameters correctly. Like most software, it's garbage in, garbage out.......

The only problem with TRACSIS is that mathematically it is too good, and can leave diagrammers floundering unless you know how to tame it. It takes a lot of refinement to get sensible answers.

......The trouble is that far too many managers were brought in from outside the industry and had no clue about diagrams, rostering and all the components. It's not something you can learn about in weeks or even do a course, either you understand how it works and that takes years or you try and muddle through and end up bluffing that you do which seems to be the case now.

Very true. You can teach someone the basics of diagramming reasonably quickly, but to understand the potential performance implications of your diagrams does indeed take years of hard experience.

......The threat of sufficient hefty fines might force TOCs to consider running diagrams that are actually real-world-proof.

No diagram can be totally 'real-world-proof', whatever that means. But having a full establishment and a sensible spare ratio can solve most problems, providing the actual diagrams are robust enough in the first place.

Don't get me started on the train planners...

Or me

 

[A-driver]

I don't think anyone should be pointing fingers at the individuals in train planning. It's rarely their fault.

Their primary job nowadays seems to be to get maximum efficiency. They don't plan for disruption so work to minimum timings. It isn't their fault that a diagram didn't work because a signal problem or broken down train caused a 5 min delay knocking the entire diagram out.

 

[Greenback]

So I assume it's cheaper to cancel trains and pay the resulting fines than employ additional staff. Perhaps the TOCs should just publicise this fact if so. They wouldn't of course.

The TC's believe that they can get away with operating their services based on the number of spare turns they have, and with some OT and RDW. Or maybe hope would be a better word than believe!

There are plenty of explanations in the thread about why relying on OT can backfire.

I think the problem is not so much that the roster requires RDW, it's that it doesn't reflect reality. If everyone shows up and all the trains run on time, then it's fine.

That's a much better way of putting it.

But when people are sick and/or off-track, then you get uncovered work that requires RDW to cover. Cuts to management mean that incident investigations can take weeks or months, meanwhile the driver is off-track and his work goes uncovered unless they get RDW. Even if all the work is covered, there's no spare, so if disruption eats into turn times that are already at the minimum (due to "efficient diagramming") then the only option is to cancel trains.

I think you've nailed it. Add in the reluctance of many staff do do any RDW in the first place, and you've got a recipe for cancelled services, which it can then be implied is the fault of the workforce rather than the management.

Spares should be there to cover exactly that redbutton, off track, sickness, annual leave (particularly when it's all on one shift). TOCs see spare and cover turns as easy targets to save money and will do a lot to reduce it or won't be in urgent need to cover the vacancies. When the numbers drop too much it gets to the begging stage of rosters ringing peoples phones to get them to come into work, even the people that haven't worked a rest day in 20 years.

It's happening more frequently, especially now the majority of drivers are in the 40% tax bracket, they won't be a keen on coming in on their days off working poor, intensive diagrams in the name of 'efficiently'.

Many rail staff might have been prepared to help the company out once upon a time, but as demonstrated in this thread, a lot of that goodwill has now gone out of the window.

It's also true that less rail staff need the extra money to survive now.

Its the 'not turning up for work' bit that gets me. Its not that we are not turning up for work when rostered, its the fact that there are too many jobs and not enough staff.

This is the crux of the discussion here. People think that staff are simply not boithering to turn up because of the wording of the announcements. There is no great understanding of the tight diagramming and the impact that has when services are delayed, let alone the understanding of spare cover and the wide variety of reasons that a driver might not be driving.

RDW often relies on a few working large amounts of OT. Sometimes just one or two being OT can mean loads of uncovered jobs. Its getting so tight that staff are being moved up links, but not been given the time off to learn the extra routes in that link. The backlog has reached massive proportions in some depots. and it then goes around that jobs are uncovered as no one is spare to work the route.

That sounds like a bit of a shambles! Obviously it will all be the fault of the staff side somewhere along the line (sorry)

 

[306024]

I don't think anyone should be pointing fingers at the individuals in train planning. It's rarely their fault.

Their primary job nowadays seems to be to get maximum efficiency. They don't plan for disruption so work to minimum timings. It isn't their fault that a diagram didn't work because a signal problem or broken down train caused a 5 min delay knocking the entire diagram out.

Thanks. The in my previous post was to indicate I would jump to the planners defence if anyone did try to point fingers

Being a bit 'old school', I would say a diagrammers job is to balance efficiency with practicality. The efficiency bit can be measured quite easily, but the practicality bit is far more subjective and difficult to explain to a finance or operations director if they question your figures.

 

[HH]

I don't think anyone should be pointing fingers at the individuals in train planning. It's rarely their fault.

Their primary job nowadays seems to be to get maximum efficiency. They don't plan for disruption so work to minimum timings. It isn't their fault that a diagram didn't work because a signal problem or broken down train caused a 5 min delay knocking the entire diagram out.

I've worked with quite a few and the better ones will create a set of diagrams that help to minimise the effects of disruption. The impact of rosters shouldn't be underestimated either.

 

[grumblingalong]

As perspective for the spare cover, I've been booked "spare" 9 times in September so far and not once have I actually been "spare"!

 

[HH]

The TC's believe that they can get away with operating their services based on the number of spare turns they have, and with some OT and RDW.

In my experience the TOCs (by which I mean the MDs & FDs) are very willing to listen to plans that reduce reliance on RDW. The problem has often been that Ops departments fail to come up with plans that convince these MDs & FDs that they will work.

When asked questions about their proposals, the Ops Directors tend to flounder. They can't really explain why they need X drivers rather than Y, or how they work out what the RDW saving would be. I've sometimes thought it would be better if the FD met the staff-side and cut out the middle man...

 

[455driver]

I agree with you, dk1. It all gives the impression that the crew can't be bothered, when it's more often the case that the TOC don't have sufficient trained resource to cover all the turns without relying on overtime, because it's cheaper for them than employing enough spares.

The key word seems to be 'unavailable'. This might be true if people elect not to do overtime, as they have made themselves unavailable, but the underlying cause is not enough staff, and saying so would help passengers see the true picture.

Why would the TOC give out information stating it is their fault when they can infer it's the greedy/ unhelpful/ militant staff who are at fault?

 

[tony6499]

Unlike some years ago, I don't think you'll find many jobs out there as a new starter these days that'll pay you regular overtime, Sunday's and RDWs at a significantly enhanced rate, not saying it's right , just thats the way it is at many workplaces right now

Which is why nobody will do it now or very few will, why should someone give up a day off or work extra hours for flat rate pay ?

 

[HarleyDavidson]

Which is why nobody will do it now or very few will, why should someone give up a day off or work extra hours for flat rate pay ?

IF they paid at the former enhanced rates, then I might consider working a day off, as the enhancement pays the tax, but as they won't
I won't & don't. I'd rather have the time to myself, with a nice glass of wine or lightly chilled beer or a cooked breakfast which so much nicer than working a train full of whinging commuters.

Why give HMRC anymore of your hard earn cash than you need to.

 

[HH]

Why give HMRC anymore of your hard earn cash than you need to.

You should work for Amazon!

But last I knew FCC had been paying drivers extra for every rest day. Have Govia taken the extra payment away?

 

[A-driver]

You should work for Amazon!



But last I knew FCC had been paying drivers extra for every rest day. Have Govia taken the extra payment away?

The extra payment is the ret day agreement and can't simply be taken away by Govia. Most companies reliant on rest days pay a bonus and extra to encourage people to work. As I said earlier, FCC/GTR is £50 booking on bonus and then time+15%. Or you have the option of taking a lieu leave day and only being paid the 15%.

 

[FordFocus]

Speaking to another driver at a different TOC and he says he's waiting for a huge rostering and diagramming cock up. Not enough drivers and removal of spare turns on certain days to rely on RDW for cover because of the increased jobs, despite maximum productivity. Union have given stark warnings on this.

Let's create a theoretical scenario for benefit of people who aren't in the industry or have a basic grasp of rostering..........

60 drivers at a depot
30 drivers on AM and 30 on PM shifts
10 drivers rest day on AM and 10 on PM
16 running turns or diagrams on AM and 16 on PM (Previously 14 turns on each shift)
4 spare turns (to cover 16 diagrams on each AM and PM shifts, previously 6 spare turns on each shift)

So you have 4 spare turns to cover 16 turns on each shift. This is before we get to drivers on annual leave (up to 7 on AM and 7 on PM for the sake of argument)

If your at maximum annual leave quota you now need a total of 6 drivers out of 20 who are off work that day to come in on their rest days just to cover the annual leave agreement or you have cancelled trains.

Then account in training, sickness, off track, house moving days, funeral bereavement, maternity, paternity, rules exams, medicals and interviews then you have a very serious problem of covering the shortage of train crew. This is what is slowly creeping in at a few TOCs and why there are lots of cancellation because of lack of train crew. Contrary to what the Tory MP says, it's not a case of "staff not bothering to turn up".

Some TOCs have to run extra trains at special events, this can include empty coaching stock on and off depots so need an extra diagram. This requires yet more staff.

So an open question to forum members, if you were in charge of the situation as an Ops Manager, how would you address this problem?