European Migration Crisis - General Discussion

[TheKnightWho]

Germany and Sweden are just making the problem worse by accepting so many migrants. The (at least partially economic) migrants (Only the ones in Turkey deserve to be called refugees, as they have sought A safe country, not a particular country).
Europe should start sending ALL of the migrants arriving illegally back, as this is the only way to stop the traffickers getting so much custom.
The most dangered refugees should be bought to Europe using legal means, but countries such as the UK which already have a housing crisis should get less than countries such as Germany who have an ageing population meaning before long more than half of the population will be retired.
Its a massive shame that more people didn't point out that the boy in all the propaganda photos wouldn't have died if his parents weren't so greedy to try and get to a country of there choice instead of accepting that the safe country of Turkey is where they should have remained

Turkey is not completely safe - certainly not in the eastern part. It's also absolutely ridiculous to think that we should expect Turkey and Lebanon to accept millions of refugees whilst Europe accepts almost none.

Plus, those coming to the UK very often do so because they have strong connections here or skills best used here. Those who think they're all unskilled are also wrong - those who make the longest trek are very often have a strong incentive to do so, and it's certainly not because Britain is comparatively easier to get into or that our benefits are better (they're not).

 

[Qwerty133]

Turkey is not completely safe - certainly not in the eastern part. It's also absolutely ridiculous to think that we should expect Turkey and Lebanon to accept millions of refugees whilst Europe accepts almost none.

Plus, those coming to the UK very often do so because they have strong connections here or skills best used here. Those who think they're all unskilled are also wrong - those who make the longest trek are very often have a strong incentive to do so, and it's certainly not because Britain is comparatively easier to get into or that our benefits are better (they're not).

Benefits are better here. I don't care what skills the ones coming here have, the fit young men are not the ones who are in the greatest need, but are most of the ones coming into the UK illegally. By focussing on those in Turkey the most vulnerable of the refugees can be brought into Europe rather than the ones who are fit enough to make their own way here.
There is not room for all of the 25Million plus Syrians, so we need to prioritise, and taking in those most able to get here is not a fair or sensible way to achieve the optimum outcome.
And this is before many of the traffickers are funding IS, meaning that by allowing the ones making their own way to stay, Europe are ensuring that IS continue to get income.

 

[TheKnightWho]

Benefits are better here. I don't care what skills the ones coming here have, the fit young men are not the ones who are in the greatest need, but are most of the ones coming into the UK illegally. By focussing on those in Turkey the most vulnerable of the refugees can be brought into Europe rather than the ones who are fit enough to make their own way here.
There is not room for all of the 25Million plus Syrians, so we need to prioritise, and taking in those most able to get here is not a fair or sensible way to achieve the optimum outcome.
And this is before many of the traffickers are funding IS, meaning that by allowing the ones making their own way to stay, Europe are ensuring that IS continue to get income.

Better than the rest of Europe? They aren't...

 

[Antman]

The housing crisis doesn't really come into it as refugees are housed by local authorities either in their own designated accommodation or in the least desirable private rented properties which nobody else will touch. They're not 'competing' with mass market buyers or tenants.

Of course they are:roll:

What are these properties that nobody else will touch? Unsafe and uninhabitable properties?
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Germany and Sweden are just making the problem worse by accepting so many migrants. The (at least partially economic) migrants (Only the ones in Turkey deserve to be called refugees, as they have sought A safe country, not a particular country).
Europe should start sending ALL of the migrants arriving illegally back, as this is the only way to stop the traffickers getting so much custom.
The most dangered refugees should be bought to Europe using legal means, but countries such as the UK which already have a housing crisis should get less than countries such as Germany who have an ageing population meaning before long more than half of the population will be retired.
Its a massive shame that more people didn't point out that the boy in all the propaganda photos wouldn't have died if his parents weren't so greedy to try and get to a country of there choice instead of accepting that the safe country of Turkey is where they should have remained

Exactly, if illegals were promptly sent back the traffickers would be out of business and there would be no more people drowning.

If anybody in this country had taken children out to sea in a dingy without life jackets they would have been arrested and prosecuted.

 

[Qwerty133]

Better than the rest of Europe? They aren't...

http://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/worldnews/europe/10391238/Benefits-in-Europe-country-by-country.html

 

[telstarbox]

When the Second World War broke out in the UK, children were evacuated from cities to safer rural areas. Why do you think Syrians would care any less about the safety of their children?

 

[TheKnightWho]

http://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/worldnews/europe/10391238/Benefits-in-Europe-country-by-country.html

I'm really not seeing the UK having the best benefits in Europe there, really. Especially considering only a tiny minority of all refugees seem to be heading here.
--- old post above --- --- new post below ---

Of course they are:roll:

What are these properties that nobody else will touch? Unsafe and uninhabitable properties?
--- old post above --- --- new post below ---


Exactly, if illegals were promptly sent back the traffickers would be out of business and there would be no more people drowning.

If anybody in this country had taken children out to sea in a dingy without life jackets they would have been arrested and prosecuted.

Doesn't matter where they go so long as they're not here, right?

 

[Antman]

I'm really not seeing the UK having the best benefits in Europe there, really. Especially considering only a tiny minority of all refugees seem to be heading here.
--- old post above --- --- new post below ---


Doesn't matter where they go so long as they're not here, right?

So what are you saying? You're happy for the traffickers to keep lining their pockets whilst putting lives at risk?

 

[TheKnightWho]

So what are you saying? You're happy for the traffickers to keep lining their pockets whilst putting lives at risk?

No, I said that the solution was not to block things off and say they aren't our problem, because that's exactly what keeps them going. Do you seriously think a policy of "send them back" would deter them?

 

[deltic]

Germany and Sweden are just making the problem worse by accepting so many migrants. The (at least partially economic) migrants (Only the ones in Turkey deserve to be called refugees, as they have sought A safe country, not a particular country).
Europe should start sending ALL of the migrants arriving illegally back, as this is the only way to stop the traffickers getting so much custom.
The most dangered refugees should be bought to Europe using legal means, but countries such as the UK which already have a housing crisis should get less than countries such as Germany who have an ageing population meaning before long more than half of the population will be retired.
Its a massive shame that more people didn't point out that the boy in all the propaganda photos wouldn't have died if his parents weren't so greedy to try and get to a country of there choice instead of accepting that the safe country of Turkey is where they should have remained

I agree Europe should be taking people direct from the refuge camps in Turkey and Lebanon but in their 100,000s not a few thousand a year as the UK is proposing to do.

In what way were the parents of Alan Kurdi greedy? Being a Kurd he was not entitled to Syrian nationality - he and his family were effectively stateless. He first fled from Damascus due to the civil war and then from Kobane when it was attacked by ISIS. He ended up in Turkey, a country that is fighting a war against the Kurds. He had a sister in Canada which is why he wanted to leave but because he was stateless and had no legal status in Turkey he could not leave. His story can be seen on the BBC http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/world-europe-34141716

I certainly would not like to potentially spend the rest of my life in a refuge camp in a country where people from my community are discriminated against and are effectively at war. Just look at the second/third generation Palestinians living in refuge camps in Lebanon who have no legal status or future.

Who we are to judge how we would act if we were in their position.

 

[Antman]

Meanwhile Saudi Arabia haven't taken one single refugee despite having air conditioned tents that could accommodate millions sat idle, they are used just a few days each year to house pilgrims.

 

[meridian2]

No, I said that the solution was not to block things off and say they aren't our problem, because that's exactly what keeps them going. Do you seriously think a policy of "send them back" would deter them?

Even if we could accommodate them, the issue becomes one of resources and the UK simply does not have the required resources to house the refugees.

 

[deltic]

Meanwhile Saudi Arabia haven't taken one single refugee despite having air conditioned tents that could accommodate millions sat idle, they are used just a few days each year to house pilgrims.

Just because others dont do anything is not a reason why we shouldn't do something.

I'm also not sure many Syrians would want to go Saudi - certainly the Christians wouldnt, and for the rest while it is not as bad as living under ISIS its a close run thing.

 

[LesS]

A few points to clarify:
The refugee camps are in Jordan, Lebanon & Turkey. I suspect that there are also some in eastern Iraq.
It is a disgrace that Saudi Arabia; Qatar, UAE etc are not providing relief, particularly to the Sunni Moslems who have sought refuge. Nor has Iran provided assistance to the Shia Moslems in similar situation. All of these countries have substantially contributed to the present situation.

At the moment only Germany, France & the UK in Europe along with US, Canada & Australia have agreed to take people from the UNHCR camps. The question is, what is being provided, refuge or resettlement? Australia will be taking people for resettlement with priority to those who are displaced without prospect of ever returning to their former homes. The priority will extend to families, women & children. This has caused a stir because it seems to exclude single men (and single women). It also favours Christians and fringe moslems.

It is not always possible to return those claiming refuge to their home counties. Many countries will not accept them back; Iran will not.

It appears to me that we are witnessing the beginnings of a mass migration across Europe by these people in the form of a human tidal wave. While ever there is even a remote prospect of permanent settlement the wave of people will continue.

 

[deltic]

According to Al Jazerra news reports the gulf states have taken 100000s of refuges from Syria - although not sure I believe the Saudi figure of 2.5m. They are also dealing with the crisis in Yemen.

 

[Haydn1971]

According to Al Jazerra news reports the gulf states have taken 100000s of refuges from Syria - although not sure I believe the Saudi figure of 2.5m. They are also dealing with the crisis in Yemen.

It's been widely reported on various "western" sources that they have taken none - which I find hard to believe given the relative proximity of the nation. Interesting contrasting views of media outlets

 

[Xenophon PCDGS]

I do not think that any asylum seeker wants to register or/and stay in Greece. It also appears (a different matter) that forces from Russia are helping Assad (of Syria) to stay in power.

Now that mention of Russia brings to mind that Putin has not exactly made many broadcasts that state that Russia will willingly take a percentage of those Syrian migrants.

Can anyone come up with a reason for this?

 

[TheKnightWho]

Now that mention of Russia brings to mind that Putin has not exactly made many broadcasts that state that Russia will willingly take a percentage of those Syrian migrants.

Can anyone come up with a reason for this?

Not sure that's entirely true.

http://www.reuters.com/article/2015/09/03/us-europe-migrants-arctic-idUSKCN0R325N20150903

 

[Xenophon PCDGS]

Not sure that's entirely true.

http://www.reuters.com/article/2015/09/03/us-europe-migrants-arctic-idUSKCN0R325N20150903

That report mainly relates to a way of accessing NORWAY via Russia and just a passing mention of Syrian students who had been studying in Russia.

It does not address the point that I endeavoured to make.

 

[TheKnightWho]

That report mainly relates to a way of accessing NORWAY via Russia and just a passing mention of Syrian students who had been studying in Russia.

It does not address the point that I endeavoured to make.

I am capable of reading, Paul...

My point was that people did in fact go to Russia - that some went elsewhere is immaterial. There is only a brief mention of students, that certainly does not account for the majority of them.

 

[Qwerty133]

At the moment only Germany, France & the UK in Europe along with US, Canada & Australia have agreed to take people from the UNHCR camps. The question is, what is being provided, refuge or resettlement? Australia will be taking people for resettlement with priority to those who are displaced without prospect of ever returning to their former homes. The priority will extend to families, women & children. This has caused a stir because it seems to exclude single men (and single women). It also favours Christians and fringe moslems.

Favouring Christians and fringe Muslims is the way to go, as they are suffering more persecution that other Muslims, just due to their religion.

 

[deltic]

It's been widely reported on various "western" sources that they have taken none - which I find hard to believe given the relative proximity of the nation. Interesting contrasting views of media outlets

Problem is that none of the Gulf States are signatories to the UN convention on refugees and therefore do not report numbers to UNHCR and do not count people as refugees. Undoubtedly they have taken people in but not enough.

Given state control it is interesting that the cartoon below comes from a Saudi newspaper showing a man in traditional Gulf clothing looking out of a door with barbed wire around it and pointing at door with the EU flag on it.
"Why don't you let them in, you discourteous people?!" he says. - see BBC article http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/world-middle-east-34132308

 

[Antman]

Even if we could accommodate them, the issue becomes one of resources and the UK simply does not have the required resources to house the refugees.

Exactly, I don't think anybody objects to taking a reasonable number of genuine refugees but large groups of young males well dressed and taking selfies on smart phones..........I don't think so!

 

[TheKnightWho]

Exactly, I don't think anybody objects to taking a reasonable number of genuine refugees but large groups of young males well dressed and taking selfies on smart phones..........I don't think so!

You can be relatively rich and a refugee. Syria was quite a developed country. This idea that anywhere that isn't the West has nothing is simply wrong.

Smart phones can also be found for dirt cheap in many places.

 

[deltic]

Exactly, I don't think anybody objects to taking a reasonable number of genuine refugees but large groups of young males well dressed and taking selfies on smart phones..........I don't think so!

Out of interest what is your definition of a "reasonable number" and "genuine refugee"

 

[320320]

Exactly, I don't think anybody objects to taking a reasonable number of genuine refugees but large groups of young males well dressed and taking selfies on smart phones..........I don't think so!

I agree with this. The people causing the massive disruption at claim should have the water cannons turned on them, they are no more than economic migrants, attempting to reach the UK for the good life.

 

[meridian2]

Out of interest what is your definition of a "reasonable number" and "genuine refugee"

This moves the debate into a grey area: one man's definition of a 'reasonable number' is another man's 'deluge'. Whether you consider his definition unreasonable is beside the point: we have a housing crisis, the NHS is struggling,and wages remain low despite the unemployment level dropping.

 

[Metrailway]

Germany is to re-introduce border controls temporarily with Austria to try and reduce the number of migrants coming into the country. Only those with a passport will be allowed to enter Germany from Austria. Germany intends to enforce the border with Austria with riot police and potentially the military. All available federal police have been sent to Bavaria. Railway services between Austria and Germany have been suspended since 5pm (4pm UK time).

The German Laender can not cope with the sheer number of migrants arriving per week and public opinion within Germany is turning against Merkel's policy of allowing undocumented migrants into the country. Munich can no longer offer accommodation for migrants as it has run out of available housing.

 

[Johnuk123]

Germany is to re-introduce border controls temporarily with Austria to try and reduce the number of migrants coming into the country. Only those with a passport will be allowed to enter Germany from Austria. Germany intends to enforce the border with Austria with riot police and potentially the military. All available federal police have been sent to Bavaria. Railway services between Austria and Germany have been suspended since 5pm (4pm UK time).

The German Laender can not cope with the sheer number of migrants arriving per week and public opinion within Germany is turning against Merkel's policy of allowing undocumented migrants into the country. Munich can no longer offer accommodation for migrants as it has run out of available housing.

Brilliant piece of complete idiocy by saying one minute anybody and everybody can come into Germany and the next turning them away. The border will see some really bad scenes and it will only be because of the Germans massive and totally deserved guilt complex which was the reason for the stupid "everybody's welcome" statement in the first place.

 

[Metrailway]

German press reporting that the Czech Republic have now reimposed border controls with Austria as well...