Transport Investigations Ltd - Prosecution Advice Needed Please!!

[najaB]

Is there anywhere that this is written down?

Not that I'm aware of, but I'm a newbie to all of this.

 

[island]

Is there anywhere that this is written down?

The perverse reality is that if you do delay to get the ticket you couldn't get beforehand and the train you eventually get is late, you might end up paying less than you would have otherwise.

It is well settled that if you were arriving at the station off the street, the fact that you were running late would not excuse you from not buying a ticket.

If you chose to arrive at the station by train, so late that you would not have time to buy a ticket (AKA within the minimum connection time) the same would seem to me to apply.

Obviously the latter is an extrapolation on my part. I would be open to considering it differently were the cause of the late arrival at the interchange station under the control of the railway.

 

[MikeWh]

It is well settled that if you were arriving at the station off the street, the fact that you were running late would not excuse you from not buying a ticket.

If you chose to arrive at the station by train, so late that you would not have time to buy a ticket (AKA within the minimum connection time) the same would seem to me to apply.

Obviously the latter is an extrapolation on my part. I would be open to considering it differently were the cause of the late arrival at the interchange station under the control of the railway.

I can see what you mean, but ...

Let's take Lewisham as an example. The minimum connection time is 4 minutes. If you arrive from the Sevenoaks line (so Oyster isn't necessarily an option) and want to travel to the Woolwich line and you intend to use a connection that is only 4 minutes, you haven't managed to buy a ticket from Lewisham to Woolwich to use with your season ticket from Dunton Green to London, there is a queue at the ticket window and machines, what should you do?

You seem to be saying that because you've left 4 minutes it's ok not to delay your journey. Yet if people stand in a queue at the origin for more than 4 minutes we advise them that they haven't left enough time. So, if they queue and miss the train they'll likely have 30 minutes to wait for the next one and thus be entitled to delay repay.

Put things another way. The minimum connection time is just that, the time that should be allowed to connect between two trains. Not the time that should be allowed to connect and buy a ticket. Therefore it should have no bearing on whether there might be an opportunity to buy or not.

 

[DaveNewcastle]

. . . .

The minimum connection time is just that, the time that should be allowed to connect between two trains. Not the time that should be allowed to connect and buy a ticket. Therefore it should have no bearing on whether there might be an opportunity to buy or not.

That's correct.

 

[455driver]

This is incorrect advice as far as I'm concerned: you do NOT have to delay yourself at a station where you change trains, whether the itinerary is valid or not, and you CAN run for a train.

Looking at http://m.nationalrail.co.uk/pj/stations/ticketbuying/LNB I see that it is an unstaffed station without a machine. We may be able to help you.

In these circumstances, and based on the limited information provided so far, I believe the guard on the cardiff to newport train should have sold you the ticket you required.

To make a valid journey the itinerary must comply with the rules, the OPs journey was not valid and so you point is moot.

If the OP had made a valid journey they would have had time to purchase the required tickets at Cardiff, in doing so they would not have delayed their journey.

 

[Starmill]

I suppose the crux of the matter, which as Mr bb21 says we have debated before without consensus, is whether one has to delay ones journey to purchase a ticket at an interchange point.

I think it would be reasonable to sum up the answer to this as:

- If it's a valid connection, definitely not.
- If it's not a valid connection, maybe.

 

[34D]

To make a valid journey the itinerary must comply with the rules,

I'm uneasy about this. Not saying ur wrong.

If the OP had made a valid journey they would have had time to purchase the required tickets at Cardiff, in doing so they would not have delayed their journey.

So 7 mins to walk (perhaps from furthest platform) to ticket office, maybe 3 mins, queue for maybe 5 mins, then walk back (perhaps to furthest platform) 3 mins?

 

[clagmonster]

Byelaw 18 in full states:
"18. Ticketless travel in non-compulsory ticket areas
(1) In any area not designated as a compulsory ticket area, no person shall enter
any train for the purpose of travelling on the railway unless he has with him a
valid ticket entitling him to travel.
(2) A person shall hand over his ticket for inspection and verification of validity
when asked to do so by an authorised person.
(3) No person shall be in breach of Byelaw 18(1) or 18(2) if:
16
(i) there were no facilities in working order for the issue or
validation of any ticket at the time when, and the station where,
he began his journey; or
(ii) there was a notice at the station where he began his journey
permitting journeys to be started without a valid ticket; or
(iii) an authorised person gave him permission to travel without a
valid ticket."
https://www.gov.uk/government/uploads/system/uploads/attachment_data/file/4202/railway-byelaws.pdf

The OP began his journey at Llanbradach. As Llanbradach is an unstaffed station with no TVM, clause 3(ii) clearly applies so no byelaw offence has been committed.

The other possible offence for which a prosecution could be sought is the Regulation of Railways Act, I think the relevant extract is as follows:
"(3) If any person—
(a) Travels or attempts to travel on a railway without having previously paid his fare, and with intent to avoid payment thereof; or
(b) Having paid his fare for a certain distance, knowingly and wilfully proceeds by train beyond that distance without previously paying the additional fare for the additional distance, and with intent to avoid payment thereof"

The argument now rests on whether, by not paying the fare at the staffed interchange station of Cardiff Central, the passenger has shown intent to avoid payment. I do not know how a court would rule on this, I don't know whether there is case law of this scenario. What I would say is:
The opportunity to pay the fare at this point has been reduced by the delay to the arriving train,
Ob previous occasions the passenger has paid their fare on the arriving service, but in this case did not have the opportunity
The passenger knew that their destination had a staffed booking office, which they have a history of using when a similar scenario has occurred. Given this is an unbarriered station, it would appear when this has occured, the passenger has done this voluntarily, that is to say they were not challenged by an inspector. It would be useful if some proof of these transactions taking place prior to the incident taking place were available, preferably the tickets but if not bank statements.

 

[island]

I can see what you mean, but ...

Let's take Lewisham as an example. The minimum connection time is 4 minutes. If you arrive from the Sevenoaks line (so Oyster isn't necessarily an option) and want to travel to the Woolwich line and you intend to use a connection that is only 4 minutes, you haven't managed to buy a ticket from Lewisham to Woolwich to use with your season ticket from Dunton Green to London, there is a queue at the ticket window and machines, what should you do?

You seem to be saying that because you've left 4 minutes it's ok not to delay your journey. Yet if people stand in a queue at the origin for more than 4 minutes we advise them that they haven't left enough time. So, if they queue and miss the train they'll likely have 30 minutes to wait for the next one and thus be entitled to delay repay.

Put things another way. The minimum connection time is just that, the time that should be allowed to connect between two trains. Not the time that should be allowed to connect and buy a ticket. Therefore it should have no bearing on whether there might be an opportunity to buy or not.

In the example given, assuming for the sake of argument such a connection exists, the passenger would in all likelihood touch in an Oyster or CPC at Lewisham, so the question wouldn't arise. Leaving that aside, in practice rather than in theory the said passenger would get short shrift from the gateline attendant at WWA about his lack of a ticket if travelling without one, and would not be given Delay-Repay if he missed his connection as Southeastern would have no record of a train being late.

I accept that your argument is not unreasonable in theory but in practice using it would be messy.

Perhaps I am conflating MCT to another purpose, but there does have to be a time by which a passenger needs to arrive at a station, by whatever mode, and which is necessarily earlier than the booked departure time of the train.

 

[sadcommuter]

Which station is your home address nearer?
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It's certainly an interesting point....

However his journey was Llan to Newport: that is fact. This would remain my personal view even if there was a Hammersmith-esque dash from one station to the other.

I don't believe it would be proper to separate this into 2 (or 3?) discrete journeys.

I suppose the crux of the matter, which as Mr bb21 says we have debated before without consensus, is whether one has to delay ones journey to purchase a ticket at an interchange point.

A secondary question is whether the answer to the above changes if the connection is an 'unofficial' one.

A tertiary question would be the effect of train 1 being late and train 2 being on time (which is the case here).

I have a draft letter in my head, which I am happy to assist the OP with, if he wishes.

However, before I can, I need to know, ideally by PM, the date of travel, and the time the first train due to depart the Llan station.

If I do get asked to draft a letter, I would propose to run it by one of this forums fares advisors first of all.

I would very much appreciate help with drafting a letter... I travelled on 30th June and the train I caught from Llanbradach was at 7.31am - it arrived into Cardiff Central at 7.59am but it didn't arrive until 8.04. The connection I caught (which I had planned to before getting to the station!) arrived at 8.05 - I had to catch this train to get to a meeting in Newport on time! Thank you

Also Llanbradach is the nearest station to my hometown - hence why I use this station
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I will reply properly to everyone's individual comments later as I have a work event I need to get to.. However thought I would cover a few pointers.

The most frustrating thing for me is that I wasn't even going to benefit from dodging a fare.. I was on company business so they pay my expenses, therefore this fare would've been paid back to me from my employer! I have made this point to the TIL.

I'm sure I could dig out proof that I have purchased tickets to Newport before, not with tickets but on bank statements. I actually travelled there every Monday for 6 months to do a university part time course, so I'm well aware of the line and station etc.. I always bought this ticket on the train!
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I'm uneasy about this. Not saying ur wrong.



So 7 mins to walk (perhaps from furthest platform) to ticket office, maybe 3 mins, queue for maybe 5 mins, then walk back (perhaps to furthest platform) 3 mins?

I also feel that 7 minutes is an insufficient amount of time between connections, especially in rush hour and busy times! But I can't argue with ATW rules
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On the second train, just before reaching Newport



I find this quite puzzling. Why would it be less effort for the guard to issue the wrong ticket?

According to this map, http://www.projectmapping.co.uk/Reviews/Resources/Valley%20Lines%20Map%20Step%20Free%20.pdf, Llanbradach just happens to be the nearest station to Caerphilly with neither a ticket office nor a TVM. If I were an investigator with a suspicious mind and ungenerous outlook, I might be thinking that the the OP really travels from Caerphilly and has made up the story about boarding at Llanbradach to justify not buying a Cardiff to Newport ticket at the start of the journey.

That's exactly what I've realised they are thinking.. But as previously mentioned, I have around 10 season tickets from before and after the incident with Llanbradach to grangetown written on them. As well as plenty of eyewitnesses in the form of passengers and train conductors who would be able to confirm Llanbradach is where I board. It's a very frustrating situation that I was given the wrong ticket.. It wasn't an issue all the week before using it! The cost to get to grangetown from Caerphilly and Llanbradach is the same.. Therefore I believe the guard gave me a ticket with the easiest station to find

 

[Clip]

That's exactly what I've realised they are thinking.. But as previously mentioned, I have around 10 season tickets from before and after the incident with Llanbradach to grangetown written on them. As well as plenty of eyewitnesses in the form of passengers and train conductors who would be able to confirm Llanbradach is where I board. It's a very frustrating situation that I was given the wrong ticket.. It wasn't an issue all the week before using it! The cost to get to grangetown from Caerphilly and Llanbradach is the same.. Therefore I believe the guard gave me a ticket with the easiest station to find

How is that remotely possible as an excuse? C funnily enough comes before L and is easier to find on the machine even if scrolling down. The price of the ticket doesn't come in to it either really.

 

[ian959]

I also feel that 7 minutes is an insufficient amount of time between connections, especially in rush hour and busy times! But I can't argue with ATW rules.

For clarity sake, the 7 minutes is a minimum connection for a valid connection at Cardiff Central. It is not an ATW rule but has been set down in the National Rail timetable for as long as I can remember. Of course prudence would suggest that longer time be allowed in some circumstances, such as peak hours or if a person is less mobile than average.

It's a very frustrating situation that I was given the wrong ticket.. It wasn't an issue all the week before using it! The cost to get to grangetown from Caerphilly and Llanbradach is the same.. Therefore I believe the guard gave me a ticket with the easiest station to find.

You seem to be getting focused on the incorrect season ticket and not your main issue - that you did not have a valid ticket for your journey from Cardiff Central to Newport. The season ticket really is a distraction to your core problem.

 

[plastictaffy]

How is that remotely possible as an excuse? C funnily enough comes before L and is easier to find on the machine even if scrolling down. The price of the ticket doesn't come in to it either really.

As long as I'm taking the correct amount, and issuing a ticket that gets the punter where he wants to be, and he's paying the same amount, what difference does it make? Usually, none. But in this instance, it does. I've done it myself, where the last station I used on Avantix was different to the one I'm being asked for now, but the fare is the same, so I've just issued that instead.

 

[sadcommuter]

How is that remotely possible as an excuse? C funnily enough comes before L and is easier to find on the machine even if scrolling down. The price of the ticket doesn't come in to it either really.

Well that's exactly my point.. C comes before L? I asked for a ticket from Llanbradach and was issued a Caerphilly. As plastictaffy stated if the price is the same and it's the last one used then that's issued instead. Which normally wouldn't matter but in this case is a major issue to my claim!
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As long as I'm taking the correct amount, and issuing a ticket that gets the punter where he wants to be, and he's paying the same amount, what difference does it make? Usually, none. But in this instance, it does. I've done it myself, where the last station I used on Avantix was different to the one I'm being asked for now, but the fare is the same, so I've just issued that instead.

That's what I suspect has happened in this case
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For clarity sake, the 7 minutes is a minimum connection for a valid connection at Cardiff Central. It is not an ATW rule but has been set down in the National Rail timetable for as long as I can remember. Of course prudence would suggest that longer time be allowed in some circumstances, such as peak hours or if a person is less mobile than average.




You seem to be getting focused on the incorrect season ticket and not your main issue - that you did not have a valid ticket for your journey from Cardiff Central to Newport. The season ticket really is a distraction to your core problem.

I know the main issue here is between Cardiff and Newport, but the TIL are focusing on this as they think I boarded the train at a manned station (Caerphilly) where I could have purchased a ticket, making me seem like I'm lying and purposely dodging the fare. Where I boarded in Llanbradach so didn't have a chance to buy the ticket.. So it actually is quite important in this case I think.

 

[Llanigraham]

I know the main issue here is between Cardiff and Newport, but the TIL are focusing on this as they think I boarded the train at a manned station (Caerphilly) where I could have purchased a ticket, making me seem like I'm lying and purposely dodging the fare. Where I boarded in Llanbradach so didn't have a chance to buy the ticket.. So it actually is quite important in this case I think.

Are they focusing on that?
I think they are focusing on the fact that Cardiff Central is also a MANNED station, with both ticket offices and convenient machines, and where you could/should have purchased your additional ticket.

And with reference to your "supposed" incorrectly printed ticket, it is your responsibility to check the ticket is correct when it is issued to you, and to correct any mistakes at that time. You didn't do so.

 

[Camden]

Are they focusing on that?
I think they are focusing on the fact that Cardiff Central is also a MANNED station, with both ticket offices and convenient machines, and where you could/should have purchased your additional ticket.

And with reference to your "supposed" incorrectly printed ticket, it is your responsibility to check the ticket is correct when it is issued to you, and to correct any mistakes at that time. You didn't do so.

I think the OP is looking for advice, rather than the above, which I don't think is helpful. If this forum is simply to allow people like the OP to post their woes in order for others to throw the verbal equivalent of rotten tomatoes at them for what they have said, there wouldn't seem to be much point.

A little bit of kindness costs nothing.

 

[Clip]

As long as I'm taking the correct amount, and issuing a ticket that gets the punter where he wants to be, and he's paying the same amount, what difference does it make? Usually, none. But in this instance, it does. I've done it myself, where the last station I used on Avantix was different to the one I'm being asked for now, but the fare is the same, so I've just issued that instead.

Yes I understand that and know it does happen BUT Llanbradach even comes before Caerphilly on their route so the guard simply wouldn't have that as his start place but as you say in this case it really doesn't matter.

 

[bb21]

When did you discover the mistake with the incorrectly issued ticket? What did you do to rectify it?

 

[455driver]

Cannot see how any prosecution would succeed in these circumstances. There was no opportunity to purchase at the origin station or on the train. The fact that a season ticket was held for part of the journey is just incidental.
No prosecution would have been possible without a ticket, why does it suddenly become possible with one?

He didn't leave the minimum connection time at Cardiff, if he had done then he would have had time to purchase the ticket whether the first train was delayed (by a small margin) on not!

That is why a prosecution will succeed.
That minimum connection time at Cardiff makes all the difference, simply ignoring it 'because' does not change that fact!

 

[MikeWh]

He didn't leave the minimum connection time at Cardiff, if he had done then he would have had time to purchase the ticket whether the first train was delayed (by a small margin) on not!

That is why a prosecution will succeed.
That minimum connection time at Cardiff makes all the difference, simply ignoring it 'because' does not change that fact!

I repeat my earlier assertion. The minimum connection time is the time which is to be allowed to connect between two trains. It does not allow any slack to purchase tickets. If it did then it would always have to be at least 15 minutes or even more, because we are always told that 5 minute guidelines are just that. You can't have it both ways. In fact, the minimum connection time at Crayford is just 1 minute. Therefore it should never be necessary to queue for more than a minute. Ridiculous? Of course. But so is saying that purchasing at an interchange is necessary when there isn't time and it's the first opportunity to buy.

 

[sadcommuter]

Are they focusing on that?
I think they are focusing on the fact that Cardiff Central is also a MANNED station, with both ticket offices and convenient machines, and where you could/should have purchased your additional ticket.

And with reference to your "supposed" incorrectly printed ticket, it is your responsibility to check the ticket is correct when it is issued to you, and to correct any mistakes at that time. You didn't do so.

I'm sorry I don't think you have read all the comments and my situation properly... I didn't come here for an argument or to be spoken to like a criminal. I NOW understand what I did was wrong and I should've bought a ticket on the Cardiff Station - but I didn't, like I haven't in the past and it's never been a problem. I was merely seeking advice as I know I am going to end up in court about this.
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I think the OP is looking for advice, rather than the above, which I don't think is helpful. If this forum is simply to allow people like the OP to post their woes in order for others to throw the verbal equivalent of rotten tomatoes at them for what they have said, there wouldn't seem to be much point.

A little bit of kindness costs nothing.

Thank you
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When did you discover the mistake with the incorrectly issued ticket? What did you do to rectify it?

I didn't discover the mistake with the season ticket at the time. I bought it on Weds 24th June and it was a weekly until 1st July - this incident happened on 30th June!

I only realised the ticket was incorrect when I was dealing with Transport Focus earlier in the week and they asked me to email them a copy of the ticket. It wasn't until the lady there pointed out that it even came to light..

I had been using it all week, I don't check my tickets, I just trust the guards. But believe me in the future I will have exactly what I need printed on that ticket!

As I mentioned before, I've had tickets with different stations printed on it and I just assumed it was whatever was easiest for the guard and as long as it cost the same... I didn't think it would ever be an issue
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He didn't leave the minimum connection time at Cardiff, if he had done then he would have had time to purchase the ticket whether the first train was delayed (by a small margin) on not!

That is why a prosecution will succeed.
That minimum connection time at Cardiff makes all the difference, simply ignoring it 'because' does not change that fact!

So if there had be 7 minutes rather than 6 minutes in between my trains, that would have met the minimum connection time?

It all seems very close...

I'm very aware a prosecution will succeed - I'm looking for advice on what to do?
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I repeat my earlier assertion. The minimum connection time is the time which is to be allowed to connect between two trains. It does not allow any slack to purchase tickets. If it did then it would always have to be at least 15 minutes or even more, because we are always told that 5 minute guidelines are just that. You can't have it both ways. In fact, the minimum connection time at Crayford is just 1 minute. Therefore it should never be necessary to queue for more than a minute. Ridiculous? Of course. But so is saying that purchasing at an interchange is necessary when there isn't time and it's the first opportunity to buy.

I can't actually find any information on the Arriva Trains Wales website mentioning the minimum connection time rules...

 

[ainsworth74]

I think this discussion of minimum connection times is unhelpful, confusing and not relevant.

Minimum connection times are used solely for journey planning and have no relevance to purchasing tickets or using other station facilities. If the OP was looking for delay compensation the discussion would be relevant but as we are talking about a potential prosecution it is not relevant. Anyone who is familiar with Cardiff Central would be aware that seven minutes (or three if changing between Valley Line services) is not sufficient to change train and also potentially buy a ticket. If the minimum interchange time was supposed to include time to buy a ticket it would need to be doubled at least.

I would therefore suggest we move on from that and back to the hoary old chestnut of whether or not a passenger has to delay their journey in order to purchase a ticket where they do not already hold one (having boarded at a station where ticket issuing facilities are not available).

This his been discussed many times previously and, as yet, no-one has ever been able to conclusive prove one way or the other that the passenger does/does not have to delay their journey.

I would suggest that the OP contact ATW directly explain what their journey was and that they did not have time to purchase a ticket at Cardiff. I would then offer to pay for any fares outstanding and, if the OP wishes to do their best to avoid court, offer to also pay any costs so far incurred.

I would be interested to see such a case tested in court (to determine if you do/do not have to delay your journey to buy at ticket when changing at a station where ticket facilities are available) but it is not my life nor money on the line so the OP needs to decide if they want to risk court (in which case only offer the fare outstanding) or if they wish to try their best to avoid court (offer the fare plus ATWs costs).

I can't actually find any information on the Arriva Trains Wales website mentioning the minimum connection time rules...

It's detailed in the National Rail Timetable on Network Rail's website. You can find the details for all stations here. Unless otherwise specified the minimum connection is five minutes.

 

[PermitToTravel]

Yes I understand that and know it does happen BUT Llanbradach even comes before Caerphilly on their route so the guard simply wouldn't have that as his start place but as you say in this case it really doesn't matter.

If the guard came round between Caerphilly and Cardiff then they could plausibly have issued another Caerphilly season before the OP's

 

[bb21]

Agreed. I don't think the discussion about minimum connection time is at all relevant to this case.

FWIW I don't think the question over the incorrect origin mattered much either AIUI. A Byelaw prosecution cannot succeed as there was no opportunity to pay at the origin station, and since the fare from Llanbradach to Grangetown/Cardiff Central/Newport and Caerphilly to Grangetown/Cardiff Central/Newport are the same, I would like to see the train company argue a case of fare evasion under the RoRA.

The real issue imo, is whether the proposed journey undertaken by the OP should be considered one journey or two. Given that the OP already has a contract with the train company to convey him to Cardiff Central, I would imagine that any variation of the contract has to be arranged before the current contract expires. Once that expired, then the OP is overriding without holding a ticket for the additional distance, minimum connection met or not.

When a passenger is unable to purchase the appropriate ticket for his journey at the origin station, there is an implied contract for the whole journey to allow the passenger to pay at the first available opportunity, but when a contract is already in place for part of the distance, is there still an implied contract when the passenger seeks to vary his current contract? That is what fundamentally I am unsure about, hence to err on the side of caution, I can only suggest that the OP overrode and the section Cardiff Central - Newport be considered a separate journey, thereby a breach of NRCoC Condition 18 occurred. Had the OP been in possession of a valid ticket for the additional distance, then Condition 19 would have provided the necessary cover for all these tickets to be considered under one contract.

 

[LateThanNever]

Agreed. I don't think the discussion about minimum connection time is at all relevant to this case.

FWIW I don't think the question over the incorrect origin mattered much either AIUI. A Byelaw prosecution cannot succeed as there was no opportunity to pay at the origin station, and since the fare from Llanbradach to Grangetown/Cardiff Central/Newport and Caerphilly to Grangetown/Cardiff Central/Newport are the same, I would like to see the train company argue a case of fare evasion under the RoRA.

The real issue imo, is whether the proposed journey undertaken by the OP should be considered one journey or two. Given that the OP already has a contract with the train company to convey him to Cardiff Central, I would imagine that any variation of the contract has to be arranged before the current contract expires. Once that expired, then the OP is overriding without holding a ticket for the additional distance, minimum connection met or not.

When a passenger is unable to purchase the appropriate ticket for his journey at the origin station, there is an implied contract for the whole journey to allow the passenger to pay at the first available opportunity, but when a contract is already in place for part of the distance, is there still an implied contract when the passenger seeks to vary his current contract? That is what fundamentally I am unsure about, hence to err on the side of caution, I can only suggest that the OP overrode and the section Cardiff Central - Newport be considered a separate journey, thereby a breach of NRCoC Condition 18 occurred. Had the OP been in possession of a valid ticket for the additional distance, then Condition 19 would have provided the necessary cover for all these tickets to be considered under one contract.

This, in effect penalises the passenger for having a (season) ticket. If he didn't have one he'd be in the clear. Could this really be considered to be the intention of the legislation?

 

[bb21]

This, in effect penalises the passenger for having a (season) ticket. If he didn't have one he'd be in the clear. Could this really be considered to be the intention of the legislation?

Yes, unfortunately that may well be a side effect.

Of course the OP has the option of asking for a Llanbradach to Newport ticket on the second train, in which case, I would say that he would have been in the clear.

 

[LateThanNever]

Agreed. I don't think the discussion about minimum connection time is at all relevant to this case.

FWIW I don't think the question over the incorrect origin mattered much either AIUI. A Byelaw prosecution cannot succeed as there was no opportunity to pay at the origin station, and since the fare from Llanbradach to Grangetown/Cardiff Central/Newport and Caerphilly to Grangetown/Cardiff Central/Newport are the same, I would like to see the train company argue a case of fare evasion under the RoRA.

The real issue imo, is whether the proposed journey undertaken by the OP should be considered one journey or two. Given that the OP already has a contract with the train company to convey him to Cardiff Central, I would imagine that any variation of the contract has to be arranged before the current contract expires. Once that expired, then the OP is overriding without holding a ticket for the additional distance, minimum connection met or not.

When a passenger is unable to purchase the appropriate ticket for his journey at the origin station, there is an implied contract for the whole journey to allow the passenger to pay at the first available opportunity, but when a contract is already in place for part of the distance, is there still an implied contract when the passenger seeks to vary his current contract? That is what fundamentally I am unsure about, hence to err on the side of caution, I can only suggest that the OP overrode and the section Cardiff Central - Newport be considered a separate journey, thereby a breach of NRCoC Condition 18 occurred. Had the OP been in possession of a valid ticket for the additional distance, then Condition 19 would have provided the necessary cover for all these tickets to be considered under one contract.

But -also- there was no opportunity to vary the contract at the station of departure so the supplier has lost their opportunity to enforce any extra/different conditions.
I would also suggest that a criminal prosecution for guilt beyond reasonable doubt cannot, without way more substantial and convincing evidence, infer from the purchase of a ticket, an intention to avoid the fare.

 

[bb21]

But -also- there was no opportunity to vary the contract at the station of departure so the supplier has lost their opportunity to enforce any extra/different conditions.
I would also suggest that a criminal prosecution for guilt beyond reasonable doubt cannot, without way more substantial and convincing evidence, infer from the purchase of a ticket, an intention to avoid the fare.

If the passenger seeks to vary the terms of the contract, I would imagine that the onus is on him to have this variation agreed and arranged prior to reaching the end of the validity of the current contract. If there is no opportunity to do so, then the contract cannot be varied. This to me is no different to other contracts in principle, and in the absence of anything to suggest the contrary, I can only reach this conclusion.

The passenger of course has the option to rebook upon the expiry of the current contract to allow him to continue his journey.