Transport Investigations Ltd - Prosecution Advice Needed Please!!

[sadcommuter]

I'm in a really complicated mess with the Transport Investigations Ltd.

On 30th June I travelled between Llanbradach and Newport train station. I regularly use the train between Llanbradach and Grangetown, so had a season ticket to cover this part of my journey.

However I didn't have a ticket for Cardiff to Newport. The reason I didn't buy one was due to the fact the Arriva Trains Wales service was running late and I had to rush to catch the connection to get to a meeting (I should have had 6 minutes but was only left with 1). Upon further investigation, I've discovered that this wasn't a 'valid' connection due to the limited amount of time in between the services. I now understand this was my fault and also that running late isn't a valid excuse to not have a ticket.

I contacted Transport Focus for their advice, and the TIL told Transport Focus that according to the Inspector who took my details on the Newport train, the season ticket I had only showed a journey between Caerphilly and Grangetown. Looking at this ticket, it is in fact only between Caerphilly and Grangetown, however I asked the guard for a Llanbradach ticket and this journey would cost the same regardless. This was due to guard laziness that it was the wrong location, and never been a problem in the past so I wasn't aware it ever would be.

As you can see, this is one big confusing mess which was all genuine mistake on my behalf (I would never try to dodge a fare!) however Transport Focus has told me that the TIL are going to take this to court and recommended I get some legal advice.

I'm totally baffled and upset by this situation, and I'm so worried about the criminal record I will have as a result.

Please could someone shed some light or advice? I would appreciate it very much!

Thanks!

 

[island]

Why didn't you buy your ticket from the guard on the train?

 

[34D]

I didn't have a ticket for Cardiff to Newport. The reason I didn't buy one was due to the fact the Arriva Trains Wales service was running late and I had to rush to catch the connection to get to a meeting (I should have had 6 minutes but was only left with 1). Upon further investigation, I've discovered that this wasn't a 'valid' connection due to the limited amount of time in between the services.

This is incorrect advice as far as I'm concerned: you do NOT have to delay yourself at a station where you change trains, whether the itinerary is valid or not, and you CAN run for a train.

Looking at http://m.nationalrail.co.uk/pj/stations/ticketbuying/LNB I see that it is an unstaffed station without a machine. We may be able to help you.

In these circumstances, and based on the limited information provided so far, I believe the guard on the cardiff to newport train should have sold you the ticket you required.

 

[najaB]

Please could someone shed some light or advice? I would appreciate it very much!

Where were you stopped - was it at Newport or on the train?

 

[34D]

Where were you stopped - was it at Newport or on the train?

He states "that according to the Inspector who took my details on the Newport train" but hopefully will confirm it.

 

[najaB]

He states "that according to the Inspector who took my details on the Newport train" but hopefully will confirm it.

I'm wondering if their details were taken en-route or if they were stopped after alighting at Newport by someone who was on the train and also alighted.

 

[bb21]

This is incorrect advice as far as I'm concerned: you do NOT have to delay yourself at a station where you change trains, whether the itinerary is valid or not, and you CAN run for a train.

Looking at http://m.nationalrail.co.uk/pj/stations/ticketbuying/LNB I see that it is an unstaffed station without a machine. We may be able to help you.

In these circumstances, and based on the limited information provided so far, I believe the guard on the cardiff to newport train should have sold you the ticket you required.

I am not as certain as you are on this.

The OP overrode from Cardiff to Newport. Whether the connection was an official one or not is not relevant imo.

 

[ian959]

As you can see, this is one big confusing mess which was all genuine mistake on my behalf (I would never try to dodge a fare!) however Transport Focus has told me that the TIL are going to take this to court and recommended I get some legal advice.

I don't see why this is a big confusing mess.

You have been travelling from Llanbradach to Grangetown on a ticket that is only valid from Caerphilly to Grangetown. The fact the fare is the same does not change the fact that you don't have a valid ticket Llanbradach to Caerphilly.

You then travelled from Cardiff Central to Newport without a ticket. When asked to produce a ticket, you obviously could not do so. Seems simple enough to me.

You had two portions of your journey that were not covered by a valid ticket and ATW are within their rights to prosecute you for doing so. Will they? Unlikely, they would probably be amenable to an out of court settlement providing you have not been caught without a valid ticket in the past. In that case, a simple payment of a hefty amount of cash will make this go away. No criminal record would result in this case.

Do they have to accept an out of court settlement? No they don't and they may choose to prosecute on the basis that your season ticket has not been valid for the journeys you have made in the past between Llanbradach and Caerphilly. If it goes to court then you can expect a much larger sum of money to be payable if found guilty, which is likely. A criminal record would result in this case. I doubt it will go to court though.

For reference minimum connection time at Cardiff Central is seven minutes, other than for connections between Valley Lines trains.

I would be rather dubious of your suggestion that it was laziness by the guard who sold you the Caerphilly to Grangetown season ticket, rather than a Llanbradach to Grangetown season ticket.

 

[najaB]

You then travelled from Cardiff Central to Newport without a ticket. When asked to produce a ticket, you obviously could not do so. Seems simple enough to me.

The issue is that they started their journey from an unstaffed station, which according to NRE doesn't have a ticket machine and so (assuming that they believed they held a valid ticket from Llanbradach) were unable to purchase the Cardiff-Newport ticket before departing. So to my mind the question is what happened at Cardiff, and on the train between Cardiff and Newport.

I would be rather dubious of your suggestion that it was laziness by the guard who sold you the Caerphilly to Grangetown season ticket, rather than a Llanbradach to Grangetown season ticket.

I'm a little less so - it doesn't fit the MO of a serial fare-dodger to ask for a season ticket from a staffed station, rather an an unstaffed one, particularly when the fare is exactly the same.

 

[sadcommuter]

Why didn't you buy your ticket from the guard on the train?

That was my intention... As I've done numerous times in the past without an issue. Unfortunately this time, instead of a guard, there was inspectors from the TIL on the train so I didn't have the opportunity. According to ATW rules (which I'm now fully aware of) you are meant to get a ticket before boarding the train whenever possible, so their argument is that I should have bought a ticket before boarding in Cardiff Central.

This is incorrect advice as far as I'm concerned: you do NOT have to delay yourself at a station where you change trains, whether the itinerary is valid or not, and you CAN run for a train.

Looking at http://m.nationalrail.co.uk/pj/stations/ticketbuying/LNB I see that it is an unstaffed station without a machine. We may be able to help you.

In these circumstances, and based on the limited information provided so far, I believe the guard on the cardiff to newport train should have sold you the ticket you required.

I'm not sure where I stand on the connection thing, according to ATW rules a connecting train is 7 minutes, but the one I caught was only 6 minutes... I hope this is true as I only ran for a train to get to a meeting in Newport. I know ATW are really pushing that lateness etc... is not an excuse for buying a ticket on the train.

I was planning on purchasing my ticket on the Newport to Cardiff train, but the TIL inspector was on there instead so I was massively caught out.

Where were you stopped - was it at Newport or on the train?

I was caught out on the train from Newport to Cardiff - I caught my regular commuter train in the morning from Llanbradach to Cardiff Central (which I had a season ticket for, however the season ticket had Caerphilly as a starting station - a ticket I was provided by the guard when asking for Llanbradach and had used all week previously from Llanbradach!!)

When swapping to catch the Newport to Cardiff - I didn't buy a ticket at the station planning on getting one on the train (as normal!) but got stopped by TIL inspectors instead of having a guard present on the train...

I got on the train at Cardiff Central (without a ticket) and was caught pretty much just before my destination station - Newport, by the TIL Inspectors

The TIL are really focusing on the point that it's not a valid connection (it doesn't show up on journey plans on the ATW website nor National Rail) however I've caught that connection plenty of times in the past - the only reason I had to run this time was because the ATW train I was on from Llanbradach to Cardiff was 5 minutes delayed... Where do I stand with this?

I don't see why this is a big confusing mess.

You have been travelling from Llanbradach to Grangetown on a ticket that is only valid from Caerphilly to Grangetown. The fact the fare is the same does not change the fact that you don't have a valid ticket Llanbradach to Caerphilly.

You then travelled from Cardiff Central to Newport without a ticket. When asked to produce a ticket, you obviously could not do so. Seems simple enough to me.

You had two portions of your journey that were not covered by a valid ticket and ATW are within their rights to prosecute you for doing so. Will they? Unlikely, they would probably be amenable to an out of court settlement providing you have not been caught without a valid ticket in the past. In that case, a simple payment of a hefty amount of cash will make this go away. No criminal record would result in this case.

Do they have to accept an out of court settlement? No they don't and they may choose to prosecute on the basis that your season ticket has not been valid for the journeys you have made in the past between Llanbradach and Caerphilly. If it goes to court then you can expect a much larger sum of money to be payable if found guilty, which is likely. A criminal record would result in this case. I doubt it will go to court though.

For reference minimum connection time at Cardiff Central is seven minutes, other than for connections between Valley Lines trains.

I would be rather dubious of your suggestion that it was laziness by the guard who sold you the Caerphilly to Grangetown season ticket, rather than a Llanbradach to Grangetown season ticket.

I didn't even notice my season ticket had the wrong station on it - I asked for a Llanbradach to Grangetown and the guard provided me with one that stated Caerphilly instead - as it's the same price and I believe the guard couldn't be bothered to look for Llanbradach in his ticket machine. I used this ticket successfully from Llanbradach to Grangetown for 5 days previously to this incident...

I have plenty of other season tickets to prove I regularly travel between Llanbradach and Grangetown with the correct ticket, I even have some with 'Pengam' starting station to prove I'm not always given the ticket by the guard I ask for. Believe me I will make sure I have it now!

I was planning on purchasing a ticket from Cardiff Central to Newport when I was on the train, as I've done many times in the past. It seems that this time I was caught out unlucky by the TIL inspectors on that train. I've never dodged a fare in my life.. I consider myself a hard working and honest person and this has been worrying me and upsetting me since it happened...

I got in touch with Transport Focus who tried to fight my corner with the TIL but I was informed yesterday that unfortunately even after my 2 apologetic letters, they are still intending to take this to court.

I'm still waiting for that letter in the post but I'm totally stuck with what to do now... I feel like I need to seek out some legal advice?

The issue is that they started their journey from an unstaffed station, which according to NRE doesn't have a ticket machine and so (assuming that they believed they held a valid ticket from Llanbradach) were unable to purchase the Cardiff-Newport ticket before departing. So to my mind the question is what happened at Cardiff, and on the train between Cardiff and Newport.
I'm a little less so - it doesn't fit the MO of a serial fare-dodger to ask for a season ticket from a staffed station, rather an an unstaffed one, particularly when the fare is exactly the same.

Thanks for your reply - as you can probably read from the above, I was sold a season ticket by a guard on ATW between Caerphilly and Grangetown (instead of the asked for Llanbradach).

I got to Cardiff station and instead of (stupidly) not buying a ticket, I planned to on the train! I also was 5 minutes delayed on the first train leaving only 1 minute between connection time - so I argued I wouldn't have had time to buy a ticket anyway. But the TIL are stating that this isn't a valid connection and I should have waited.

I'm definitely not a serial-fare dodger, this has been the worst experience of my life....

 

[34D]

On 30th June I travelled between Llanbradach and Newport train station.

Is fact, if we take the OP at his word

The OP overrode from Cardiff to Newport.

I disagree with your choice of 'overrode'

Ticket held: season from Caerphilly to Grangetown. Journey made requires three tickets:

-single Llanbradach to Caerphilly
-use of the already purchased season from Caerphilly to Cardiff Central
-single Cardiff to Newport

NRE tells us that Llanbradachis unstaffed (and I believe we should be able to take NRE as definitive, rather than asking local members to confirm the situation on the ground.

In this situation, we need to refer to the NRCOC:

2. Requirement to hold a ticket

Before you travel you must have a ticket or other authority to travel which is valid for the train(s) you intend to use and for the journey you intend to make, unless the circumstances set out in (b) (i) or (ii) below apply.

Train Companies will make tickets and reservations available at stations, over the internet or by telephone as appropriate. Where there are no facilities for buying a ticket at the station, tickets will be available for sale during or at the end of your journey.

Train Companies will offer reservations (where applicable) and tickets to disabled persons and persons with reduced mobility at no additional cost.

If you travel in a train

(a) without a ticket; or
(b) the circumstances described in Conditions 10, 11, 12, 18, 19, 22, 30, 35 and 39 apply;

you will be liable to pay the full single fare or full return fare or, if appropriate, a Penalty Fare (see Condition 4) for your journey. You will not be entitled to any discounts or special terms unless either:

(i) at the station where you started your journey, there was no ticket office open

and

there were no self-service ticket machines or no self-service ticket machines were in full working order

and

in Penalty Fares areas you bought a Permit to Travel unless no Permit to Travel issuing machine was in full working order

OR

(ii) the notices and other publications issued by the Train Company in whose train you are travelling indicate that you can buy tickets in that train.

In circumstances where (i) or (ii) apply, you only need to pay the fare that you would have paid if you had bought a ticket immediately before your journey.

Special arrangements may apply if you are disabled. You will find details of these arrangements in each Train Company’s ‘Disabled People’s Protection Policy’.

For the purposes of this Condition, and Conditions 4, 39 and 41, “full single fare or full return fare” means the highest priced single or (if requested by the passenger) return fare appropriate to the class of travel for the journey you are making.

3. Where the full range of tickets is not available

If you cannot buy an appropriate ticket for the journey you want to make because the range of tickets that is available at the station from which you intend to start your journey is restricted, you must buy a ticket or Permit to Travel before you travel that entitles you to make at least part of the journey. You must then, as soon as is reasonably practicable, buy an appropriate ticket to complete your journey. In these circumstances, you only need to pay the fare that you would have paid if you had bought a ticket immediately before your journey. The price you will have to pay will be reduced by the amount paid for the ticket or Permit to Travel.

This tells me that the OP was entitled to buy the extra tickets from the first opportunity. I personally define this as the earlier of:

-on board the first train if a ticket seller comes round
-at cardiff IF THERE WAS TIME; I assert that he doesn't have to delay himself unduly.
-on board the second train to newport if a ticket seller comes round
-at the barrier or ticket office at Newport.

In the above I have given the strictest interpretation to the season ticket from the wrong station. In truth, this can be changed over for I think nil cost by any other ticket office.

May I note in passing that Transport Focus have been woefully inadequate in helping this poster, based on the information supplied so far.

 

[ian959]

This is incorrect advice as far as I'm concerned: you do NOT have to delay yourself at a station where you change trains, whether the itinerary is valid or not, and you CAN run for a train.

Looking at http://m.nationalrail.co.uk/pj/stations/ticketbuying/LNB I see that it is an unstaffed station without a machine. We may be able to help you.

In these circumstances, and based on the limited information provided so far, I believe the guard on the cardiff to newport train should have sold you the ticket you required.

A passenger does not have to delay themselves when changing trains at an interchange station. However I would suspect that the underlying principle is that it would be the case only where the specified minimum connection time for the station was in fact met. I believe that is why ATW are so keen on pointing out that the minimum connection time was not met and therefore there was no way that the passenger ensured that they would be able to purchase a ticket at the first available opportunity which was clearly at Cardiff Central, not on the subsequent train to Newport.

That is of course assuming that the train was packed enough to be unable for the guard to get through to sell a ticket.

 

[sheff1]

I believe that is why ATW are so keen on pointing out that the minimum connection time was not met and therefore there was no way that the passenger ensured that they would be able to purchase a ticket at the first available opportunity which was clearly at Cardiff Central, not on the subsequent train to Newport

That is of course assuming that the train was packed enough to be unable for the guard to get through to sell a ticket.

The first available opportunity should be on the train from Llanbradach to Cardiff. The OP apparently regularly buys season tickets on these trains so it would appear the ticket seller usually comes round before Cardiff.

 

[Greenback]

Is it possible that the OP's season ticket was seen on the first train but the OP didn't know that he could buy a Cardiff to Newport at that point?

 

[34D]

Is it possible that the OP's season ticket was seen on the first train but the OP didn't know that he could buy a Cardiff to Newport at that point?

Certainly is possible. And if so, that would be a very different case. I guess we need to wait for the OP to return. At least two questions to answer:

-did they meet a guard on the first train
-where precisely were their details taken?

 

[sadcommuter]

Is fact, if we take the OP at his word



I disagree with your choice of 'overrode'

Ticket held: season from Caerphilly to Grangetown. Journey made requires three tickets:

-single Llanbradach to Caerphilly
-use of the already purchased season from Caerphilly to Cardiff Central
-single Cardiff to Newport

NRE tells us that Llanbradachis unstaffed (and I believe we should be able to take NRE as definitive, rather than asking local members to confirm the situation on the ground.

In this situation, we need to refer to the NRCOC:



This tells me that the OP was entitled to buy the extra tickets from the first opportunity. I personally define this as the earlier of:

-on board the first train if a ticket seller comes round
-at cardiff IF THERE WAS TIME; I assert that he doesn't have to delay himself unduly.
-on board the second train to newport if a ticket seller comes round
-at the barrier or ticket office at Newport.

In the above I have given the strictest interpretation to the season ticket from the wrong station. In truth, this can be changed over for I think nil cost by any other ticket office.

May I note in passing that Transport Focus have been woefully inadequate in helping this poster, based on the information supplied so far.

Usually when I board a train, I purchase my ticket straight from the guard as I always get on in Llanbradach which is unmanned and there is not a ticket machine.

This specific journey, I did not see a guard (I would of 100% bought a ticket from him to save time/hassle at the end station Newport if no other opportunity rose!)

There should have been time in Cardiff to purchase a ticket, but due to the late running of the original connecting train, there was insufficient time to purchase. At this stage, I am accepting ATW and the TIL's rules that it wasn't an official connection and I should have waited... I know this for future but at the time of connection - I wasn't aware!

I had planned to purchase my ticket off the guard on the Newport train (I've done this LOTS of times in the past with no issues) or at the Newport station which again I've done a few times before... Not one ATW member of staff has informed me that I shouldn't do that, as obviously then I wouldn't.

I didn't change my season ticket for the correct one because to be honest I didn't even notice at the time, it works fine whenever I use it and I've never had an issue before - therefore I didn't check it properly If only I did!

I feel like the TIL are trying to catch me out, they think I'm lying about boarding at Llanbradach because I know it's unmanned because my season ticket says Caerphilly (where I had the opportunity to buy a Newport ticket) - would it help to prove I have loads of tickets showing Llanbradach? I'm also very friendly with a lot of the guards who could back me up... Am I clutching at straws?????

I'm very disappointed with Transport Focus.

 

[sadcommuter]

The problem is, I planned a journey on National Rail from Llanbradach to Cardiff Central then Cardiff to Newport - instead of doing the whole journey, so I know ignorance is not an excuse but I honestly didn't know anything about genuine connection times.

I really think that this is the main reason ATW are going to win this case as I wasn't on the right train - I don't have lateness of their service as an excuse!

 

[sadcommuter]

I really appreciate EVERYONE's input on this! Thank you for taking the time to understand and advise.

Hi Sheff1, Greenback and 34D - I didn't see a ticket seller on the first train (Llanbradach to Grangetown) otherwise this would have been my first port of call for my Newport ticket (again I've done this in the past).

My next option was Cardiff, but the train was delayed, but I wasn't on a genuine connection...

The next option after that, which I've done before with no issues was to get one on the Newport Train or at the station. Why don't staff enforce this rule? I see countless people getting on trains from manned stations who are allowed to purchase tickets off the guards.. I feel its really unfair that these strict rules are in place but the ATW staff don't enforce them, meaning innocent people like me are caught out? I wouldn't dream of dodging a fare!

I've realised that the TIL inspector saw my season ticket, thinks I'm lying about my regular commute from the unmanned Llanbradach station. The season ticket I had said I boarded at Caerphilly, which is manned so I could have bought a ticket to Newport, therefore making my whole story a lie in their eyes.

I have lots of train tickets that show I board at Llanbradach, as well as eyewitnesses in the form of other passengers and train conductors who could back this up - am I clutching at straws??

 

[SWTCommuter]

-where precisely were their details taken?

On the second train, just before reaching Newport

I got on the train at Cardiff Central (without a ticket) and was caught pretty much just before my destination station - Newport, by the TIL Inspectors

Looking at this ticket, it is in fact only between Caerphilly and Grangetown, however I asked the guard for a Llanbradach ticket and this journey would cost the same regardless. This was due to guard laziness that it was the wrong location, and never been a problem in the past so I wasn't aware it ever would be.

I find this quite puzzling. Why would it be less effort for the guard to issue the wrong ticket?

According to this map, http://www.projectmapping.co.uk/Reviews/Resources/Valley%20Lines%20Map%20Step%20Free%20.pdf, Llanbradach just happens to be the nearest station to Caerphilly with neither a ticket office nor a TVM. If I were an investigator with a suspicious mind and ungenerous outlook, I might be thinking that the the OP really travels from Caerphilly and has made up the story about boarding at Llanbradach to justify not buying a Cardiff to Newport ticket at the start of the journey.

 

[LateThanNever]

Cannot see how any prosecution would succeed in these circumstances. There was no opportunity to purchase at the origin station or on the train. The fact that a season ticket was held for part of the journey is just incidental.
No prosecution would have been possible without a ticket, why does it suddenly become possible with one?

 

[bb21]

I personally define this as the earlier of:

-on board the first train if a ticket seller comes round
-at cardiff IF THERE WAS TIME; I assert that he doesn't have to delay himself unduly.
-on board the second train to newport if a ticket seller comes round
-at the barrier or ticket office at Newport.

But that is just your own interpretation. We have had plenty of discussion before on this issue and never reached any consensus.

I am far from certain that a challenge would be successful. I wish I could be as confident as you, but I am not.

I, too, would like a test case on this issue to clarify the matter once and for all, but it is not my money I am playing with here.

While Condition 19 undoubtedly applies when multiple tickets are held, it is unclear what happens when a ticket is held for only part of that journey and the passenger reaches the end of the validity of that ticket, and we have never managed to achieve consensus on this subject either in past discussions.

 

[najaB]

... would it help to prove I have loads of tickets showing Llanbradach? I'm also very friendly with a lot of the guards who could back me up.

Yes. It would definitely help your case if you can show a history of buying tickets from Llanbradach.

 

[Haywain]

While Condition 19 undoubtedly applies when multiple tickets are held, it is unclear what happens when a ticket is held for only part of that journey and the passenger reaches the end of the validity of that ticket, and we have never managed to achieve consensus on this subject either in past discussions.

Condition 19 is not relevant as multiple tickets were not held. If they had been, the situation would not have arisen. A similar situation arose in another thread recently, and the view of DaveNewcastle was that the second ticket needed to be held before the (section of) journey to which it applied.

 

[island]

The biggest difficulty as I see it is the failure to purchase a ticket at Cardiff Central. Choosing to rush for an invalid connection rather than using the ticket facilities in the underpass is hard to justify.

 

[bb21]

Condition 19 is not relevant as multiple tickets were not held. If they had been, the situation would not have arisen. A similar situation arose in another thread recently, and the view of DaveNewcastle was that the second ticket needed to be held before the (section of) journey to which it applied.

That was partly my point. If the court reaches a decision that Condition 19 is not applicable in this case, then Condition 18 would have been relevant, and the mitigations mentioned in Condition 2 would have not been relevant either since there would have been an opportunity to pay at Cardiff.

That is the reason I am nowhere near as confident that a challenge by the OP would be successful.

 

[Townsend Hook]

My logic on the situation is as follows:
The OP travelled from Llanbradach to Caerphilly on one ticket, Caerphilly to Cardiff on another, and then intended to obtain a third ticket for his travel from Cardiff to Newport. Because the three segments are on seperate tickets, this cannot be considered as one journey but three seperate journeys, regardless of the fact the OP did not (I am assuming) leave railway property. Therefore the OP is entirely at fault for not obtaining a ticket for the third journey before boarding the train, and should have missed his connection to purchase a ticket instead of running for it, and ATW are therefore entirely justified in pursuing him through their agents.

Does this sound about right?

 

[34D]

Yes. It would definitely help your case if you can show a history of buying tickets from Llanbradach.

Which station is your home address nearer?
--- old post above --- --- new post below ---

That was partly my point. If the court reaches a decision that Condition 19 is not applicable in this case, then Condition 18 would have been relevant, and the mitigations mentioned in Condition 2 would have not been relevant either since there would have been an opportunity to pay at Cardiff.

That is the reason I am nowhere near as confident that a challenge by the OP would be successful.

It's certainly an interesting point....

However his journey was Llan to Newport: that is fact. This would remain my personal view even if there was a Hammersmith-esque dash from one station to the other.

I don't believe it would be proper to separate this into 2 (or 3?) discrete journeys.

I suppose the crux of the matter, which as Mr bb21 says we have debated before without consensus, is whether one has to delay ones journey to purchase a ticket at an interchange point.

A secondary question is whether the answer to the above changes if the connection is an 'unofficial' one.

A tertiary question would be the effect of train 1 being late and train 2 being on time (which is the case here).

I have a draft letter in my head, which I am happy to assist the OP with, if he wishes.

However, before I can, I need to know, ideally by PM, the date of travel, and the time the first train due to depart the Llan station.

If I do get asked to draft a letter, I would propose to run it by one of this forums fares advisors first of all.

 

[MikeWh]

The biggest difficulty as I see it is the failure to purchase a ticket at Cardiff Central. Choosing to rush for an invalid connection rather than using the ticket facilities in the underpass is hard to justify.

I'm sorry but I'm really struggling to see the relevance of minimum connection times in relation to an opportunity to pay. The minimum connection time is that which needs to be allowed when changing trains with an expectation that the railway will sort things out if they delay you. If you are able to make a shorter connection then you are free to do so as long as you are prepared to take the risk should you miss it.

I am not aware of anywhere that states that you cannot take a train if you didn't leave the minimum amount of connection time. Please can someone point to a clause in the regulations where this is specified if I have indeed missed it.

 

[najaB]

I'm sorry but I'm really struggling to see the relevance of minimum connection times in relation to an opportunity to pay. The minimum connection time is that which needs to be allowed when changing trains with an expectation that the railway will sort things out if they delay you. If you are able to make a shorter connection then you are free to do so as long as you are prepared to take the risk should you miss it.

I think people have raised the minimum connection time because they are of the opinion that it is a two-way street: while you are free to make a shorter connection if you can, you can't then claim for a delay nor use 'I was running for the train' as an excuse as you weren't 'expected' to make that train in the first place.

 

[MikeWh]

I think people have raised the minimum connection time because they are of the opinion that it is are a two-way street: while you are free to make a shorter connection if you can, you can't then claim for a delay nor use 'I was running for the train' as an excuse as you weren't 'expected' to make that train in the first place.

Is there anywhere that this is written down?

The perverse reality is that if you do delay to get the ticket you couldn't get beforehand and the train you eventually get is late, you might end up paying less than you would have otherwise.