Hull Trains order for 5x Class 800 (now confirmed as AT300)

[NotATrainspott]

One of the things I'm not sure about is the current obsession for 5 car units. Many of the new orders feature 5 car units. Why 5? I'm fearful of CrossCountry style overcrowding problems appearing on many routes. I know HT doesn't use long trains, but what about future-proofing? These 5 car units are appearing everywhere; are they really sufficient for the next, say, 20 years? Interested in other people's views on this.

These 5 car units are designed to be able to be joined together to make a full-length 10 car train, which at 260m long will be effectively as long as a go-anywhere InterCity train should be given the platform length constraints on the network. Two 5 car trains can be coupled together as they travel on the congested sections nearer to London and then they can split to serve two smaller destinations, each of which wouldn't be large enough to justify having frequent full-length services. Hull Trains could buy some more AT300s and have them split from and join their Hull services at Doncaster, with the other train going to some other destination like Grimsby instead.

 

[MrCub]

I see. Very interesting, and many thanks.

Perhaps it's just me but I feel, probably quite unfairly, that trains are getting shorter on long distance routes, and that is off-putting. I suspect I just prefer my own concept of what a 'proper train' is, and I am have a suspicion I am being quite silly and unfair. These new trains are supposed to be progress, after all.

 

[158722]

Where are the 180s going to go now, stay with HT or even more for GC?

Perhaps the Welsh Assembly will be taking note of this. 4 units to replace the existing two hauled sets, plus one extra for the often quoted second Holyhead-Cardiff set. Much synergy between the 180s and 175s...

 

[Mikey C]

I see. Very interesting, and many thanks.

Perhaps it's just me but I feel, probably quite unfairly, that trains are getting shorter on long distance routes, and that is off-putting. I suspect I just prefer my own concept of what a 'proper train' is, and I am have a suspicion I am being quite silly and unfair. These new trains are supposed to be progress, after all.

Well as these trains are replacing 5 car 180s, their trains are getting longer not shorter!

 

[Haydn1971]

The Class 800 and Class 801 trains are members of the AT300 family, as is the Class 395 used on HS1.

To be fair, the Class 395 pre-date the European Centric AT100/200/300 and recently AT400 series - Hitachi have slipped the existing 395 into the AT300 "European product brand"

 

[lincolnshire]

Hull electrification will proceed as part of the TransPennine electrification scheme, an announcement on this resuming is expected this autumn, most likely as part of the Treasury's Autumn Statement.

The work has already progressed through GRIP3 and is now sitting at GRIP4, waiting for final option selection, that will depend on the proposals for the resumption of the TransPennine scheme, and if additional options are to be considered for capacity and journey time enhancements.

You might remember that the entire Hull scheme was originally proposed back in 2012, and First Group paid for GRIP1 and GRIP2 stages themselves, before DfT provided funding to cover GRIP3 option development work. The scheme, when worked through GRIP 1-3 (by First) highlighted a lack of design and engineering assets to complete the work within the original timescale - December 2016 was the first date we were given, if you recall, to allow electric trains to serve Hull during its Year of Culture in 2017.

It's a nice easy route to electrify too. It would have made a nice route on which to test new equipment and train up new engineering staff, but hey-ho, that's all a bit too late now.

If we all give up talking in riddles GRIP this and GRIP that and went back to the real world where people would understand at what stage all this electrification is at then somebody may have seen what a grand mess its in. If your buying a car you find what you want then find the cost and decide if you can afford it or have to scale back to a more basic model instead to suit your pot of money.

So the route to Hull would be easy to electrify would it? which ever route you use there is two moving swing bridges across the River Ouse to get across to which somebody has to design a system for the overhead line, so that the bridge can open and close for shipping. Both bridges are bigger than Trowse Bridge which is all ready electrified.

Lets see what happens.
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Its nice that Hull Trains are seeking to obtain some better trains for their service, honestly when I used to travel now and then to Hull when a family member was in Uni up there, I did not like the 180s as found the seating very cramped and the air-conditioning was also very lousy unlike the Class 222 Pioneers which were far superior units to the 180s and was a shame the DFT told HT to cascade them to EMT and just have 180s as that caused so many delays and disruption as they were the most unreliable DEMUS going on the whole Rail Network and did tarnish their reputation badly for a while due to all the issues. Hopefully with a newer and more reliable fleet, HT will once again be the best Open Access operator

I don,t know what train you was travelling on as Hull trains 180.s are far superior than Virgin East Coast,s sets with there numb bum seats and not much legroom. I like there as they have comfy seats and legroom and the insides of the coaches have that spaciousness fell about them, the air conditioning might be a little iffy, but you can usually find one end or part of the coach where its working correctly as against others who have coaches with non at all working.

They have spent a load of money on them to make them more reliable and improve there reliability.

 

[HSTEd]

Furrer and Frey, Balfour Beaty and Siemens all have off the shelf contact rail solutions designed for swing bridges, depots and many other things besides.
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I don,t know what train you was travelling on as Hull trains 180.s are far superior than Virgin East Coast,s sets with there numb bum seats and not much legroom. I like there as they have comfy seats and legroom and the insides of the coaches have that spaciousness fell about them, the air conditioning might be a little iffy, but you can usually find one end or part of the coach where its working correctly as against others who have coaches with non at all working.

Where do I begin?
How about the tables in first class that are not secured to the vehicle wall and have a resonance frequency sufficiently close to the engine range that they shake an inch side to side at certain power settings.
Or the supports for the tables that obscure some of the power sockets.

 

[Bletchleyite]

How about the tables in first class that are not secured to the vehicle wall and have a resonance frequency sufficiently close to the engine range that they shake an inch side to side at certain power settings.

The Standard ones do as well. It's an appalling piece of design, and unnecessarily so; it was sold as being for flexibility of layout, but other units seem to manage with a track to bolt tables and seats to on the side wall. The seats also move. And the small overhead luggage racks, and the loose rattly panels......

The only two things going for them are IMO that the legroom is good and the seats themselves are comfortable.

Mind you, I don't like Mk4s either, least of all with the torture devices GNER mistakenly fitted instead of seats.

 

[Philip Phlopp]

If we all give up talking in riddles GRIP this and GRIP that and went back to the real world where people would understand at what stage all this electrification is at then somebody may have seen what a grand mess its in. If your buying a car you find what you want then find the cost and decide if you can afford it or have to scale back to a more basic model instead to suit your pot of money.

So the route to Hull would be easy to electrify would it? which ever route you use there is two moving swing bridges across the River Ouse to get across to which somebody has to design a system for the overhead line, so that the bridge can open and close for shipping. Both bridges are bigger than Trowse Bridge which is all ready electrified.

GRIP is how the railway works, it's well understood and it works, we've not really had a great deal of difficulty in getting through the process to GRIP6, which is the construct, test and commission stage on other electrification projects, even with some moving goalposts.

Hull electrification is at the GRIP3 stage - the project has already been defined, and the feasibility confirmed, it's at the stage now where issues and constraints are identified, suitable options to resolve these issues and constraints are investigated and the most appropriate solutions chosen.

The next stage will be GRIP4, which starts the development work and outline design work for the project, GRIP5 takes you through the detailed design work, so the individual placements of each mast, the size of each cantilever, and the detailed design work for dealing with the swing bridges. GRIP6 has shovels in the ground and work taking place.

We have it confirmed, but knew long before First did the GRIP2 feasibility study, the swing bridges aren't an issue. They'll need detailed design work, we will need to know what we need to use, where we're bolting portals or masts, what bracing is needed, and what architectural elements we need to look at to satisfy Historic England and local authorities, but a swing bridge is not especially complicated to electrify.

 

[peaks222]

The trains that have been ordered by FHT are the same as the FGW sets ordered.

 

[A0]

The best stock Hull Trains had was that electric hauled Mark 3 rake they had.
Travelled on it a couple of times Grantham-Doncaster.

Except it couldn't get to Hull..... :roll:

So from a passenger wanting to travel from Hull to London using Hull trains it was a complete PITA.......

 

[Bungle965]

Except it couldn't get to Hull..... :roll:

So from a passenger wanting to travel from Hull to London using Hull trains it was a complete PITA.......

Exactly, I pointed that out a bit further up the tread.
Thanks
Sam

 

[HSTEd]

Except it couldn't get to Hull..... :roll:

So from a passenger wanting to travel from Hull to London using Hull trains it was a complete PITA.......

Honestly I doubt most of the passengers on Hull Trains even make journeys including Hull any more.

It is often used very heavily between Grantham and London and Doncaster and London now. (It being quicker than VTEC services from Grantham).

 

[ainsworth74]

Honestly I doubt most of the passengers on Hull Trains even make journeys including Hull any more.

Then I would suggest you try using some of the services as you may be surprised...

 

[thenorthern]

For a very short period of time did Hull Trains operate a Class 87 with some Mark 2 coaches?

Very good decision though by First Hull Trains as 85% of their present route is electrified so it makes sense to be able to use the electrification when they can.

Off topic but I have always wondered if VTEC should really abandon the Hull Executive service and concentrate on other services use the set to run an extra train to Lincoln or somewhere else.

 

[sprinterguy]

For a very short period of time did Hull Trains operate a Class 87 with some Mark 2 coaches?

Class 86 and mark 3 coaches, as mentioned above.

 

[gazthomas]

I wonder if on reflection the design should have been for a diesel "power car" that could be removed at a later time

 

[thenorthern]

I wonder if on reflection the design should have been for a diesel "power car" that could be removed at a later time

Difficult to say as the current design allows the trains to take diversions if they need to along un-electrified lines although the Diesel Engine will add quite a bit of weight for something that may only be used a couple of time a year.

 

[D365]

I wonder if on reflection the design should have been for a diesel "power car" that could be removed at a later time

Wasn't that the basis of the concept for the HST2, a MU with diesel engines in the driving vehicle compartments. This would take a large amount of room out of the passenger salon however, so the idea has long since been superseded.

Please don't let this turn into another attack on bi-mode trains and how they are supposedly less efficient than when running diesel under electrified lines.

 

[Clip]

I wonder if on reflection the design should have been for a diesel "power car" that could be removed at a later time

I wouldn't have said necessary as by the time these come on line for HT will be considerably earlier than electrification and as such these can get cascaded elsewhere and they get some nice shiiny new ones

And who says the north doesn't get new trains

 

[Philip Phlopp]

Difficult to say as the current design allows the trains to take diversions if they need to along un-electrified lines although the Diesel Engine will add quite a bit of weight for something that may only be used a couple of time a year.

They're not as light as they could be, but the weight that has been achieved is really good, and they compare, even with a diesel engine, favourably with electric stock ordered in recent years.

The coaches for an IEP set will work out around 3 tonnes heavier than those of the Hitachi Class 395 Javelin unit, but taking into account the increased length of the coach and additional interior fitout (26 metres for IEP versus 20 metres for the Javelin) Hitachi have effectively offset the weight of the diesel engines with a lighter bodyshell and other weight savings.

 

[RobShipway]

The ones from HT could always be passed on to Great Western or VTEC

 

[Haydn1971]

The ones from HT could always be passed on to Great Western or VTEC

Talk of where to cascade trains that haven't been ordered yet - that's a new high

 

[BananaRepublic]

I wonder if on reflection the design should have been for a diesel "power car" that could be removed at a later time

That arrangement is exactly what was offered and chosen, when the DfT selected Agility Trains as the suppliers for the IEP.
The idea was that a single diesel power car would be attached at one end of a Bi-Mode version (electric at the other end) and a pair of diesel power cars at either end of a self-powered (all-diesel) version (HST style).

That arrangement was Agility trains initial solution to the requirement that the trains could be easily converted from diesel to Bi-Mode or all-electric; or from Bi-Mode to all-electric at any later stage. This was achieved by simply swapping power cars and other relatively simple changeovers (e.g. software etc).

The all-diesel version was subsequently dropped, when the GWML electrification programme was announced and the change to multiple underfloor engines in the Bi-Mode version came about as a result of changes to the DfT requirement and concerns about power capability and redundancy of a single diesel generator and also the wasted passenger space taken up by a power car.

It will remain to be seen if some of the production model Bi-Modes will eventually have their diesel engines removed if and when electrification expands across the network, or whether they'll be cascaded in their original Bi-Mode form.

 

[thenorthern]

I wonder if Grand Central will soon fallow suit, with their profit margins I doubt it.

I have never been on a First Hull Trains Class 180 but I find with the Class 180s with Grand Central are getting rather dated inside and the plastic seems to be going a funny colour so I think its very good news for Hull Trains.

 

[class26]

I wonder if Grand Central will soon fallow suit, with their profit margins I doubt it.

I have never been on a First Hull Trains Class 180 but I find with the Class 180s with Grand Central are getting rather dated inside and the plastic seems to be going a funny colour so I think its very good news for Hull Trains.

Travelled on a GC 1980 recently and in my opinion Hull trains 180`s are in much better condition internally.

 

[Clip]

Talk of where to cascade trains that haven't been ordered yet - that's a new high

Well it was in response to a post

I wonder if on reflection the design should have been for a diesel "power car" that could be removed at a later time

 

[talltim]

Except those rakes could not travel to Hull which defeats the point of Hull Trains.
Sam

The rake could, just not the loco

 

[Bungle965]

The rake could, just not the loco

Apologies yes will make my post more clear.
Sam

 

[D365]

The rake could, just not the loco

Presumably they needed the electric loco to keep to their existing timings.