Hull Trains order for 5x Class 800 (now confirmed as AT300)

[IanXC]

HT have today announced an order for what appears to be 5, 5 car Class 800 units (IEP bimode).

They point out this is a 50% increase on seating capacity from the current fleet, but what are peoples thoughts on how this will be used?

Interesting to note how their (planned) fleet has evolved:
4x 3-car 170
4x 4-car 222
4x 5-car 180
5x 5-car 800

A £68 million pound investment by First Hull Trains will ensure that the Hull & Humber region continues to benefit from high-speed connectivity to the capital, despite delays to rail electrification across the country.
The Government announced the suspension of various electrification projects earlier this summer. Despite this, Hull Trains has continued to work with Network Rail and the ORR to secure a high-speed, efficient and first-rate service from the region to the capital. This means that passengers will not be disadvantaged by electrification delays in comparison to other areas that already benefit from a fully electrified railway.
Hull Trains officially announced today that it has invested £68million in a fleet of Bi-Mode trains, which are capable of both electric, and diesel operation. The firm has also commenced an industry consultation process to secure track access for at least another ten years.
The units are expected to enter service in 2020 and will bring multiple economic, social and environmental benefits.

http://www.hulltrains.co.uk/about-u...s-industry-consultation-for-high-speed-units/

 

[lincolnshire]

A good idea to go for 5 sets of units, as at present the 180,s can be joined together and made a 10 coach train as for the Rugby Cup at Wembley last weekend. They was able to loan sets from First Great Western as they don,t use them as much at weekend,s or as they have done hire them off Grand Central when they have had major problems.
So with 5 sets they will have some standby capacity as they will not be able to loan them off First Great Western as they will be wanting there moneys worth out of there bi-mode stock thats coming to them as well.

Not bad for a company that started a service with hired in 170,s who has built a service reputation on customer service. There major down fall was when part of one of there 222,s sets was dropped off the lifting jacks at Croften Depot damaging it beyond repair so then robbing them of a set.

 

[CdBrux]

To me the first two posts in this thread seem a great advert for open access operators. More of them are needed on long distance routes.

 

[HSTEd]

The Government announced the suspension of various electrification projects earlier this summer. Despite this, Hull Trains has continued to work with Network Rail and the ORR to secure a high-speed, efficient and first-rate service from the region to the capital. This means that passengers will not be disadvantaged by electrification delays in comparison to other areas that already benefit from a fully electrified railway.

In other words, electrification to Hull is dead.
As was anticipated.

 

[WatcherZero]

Not dead, just delayed until the middle of the next decade according to their track access application and they need new trains sooner.

Always has been a cheeky submission, after intitially claiming they would borrow to pay for the electrification themselves that changed to asking the government to pay for it and them paying higher track access charges for 30 years, of course the risk being they could fold within those 30 years and not actually repay it so the risk was with the government.

 

[Philip Phlopp]

In other words, electrification to Hull is dead.
As was anticipated.

Hull electrification will proceed as part of the TransPennine electrification scheme, an announcement on this resuming is expected this autumn, most likely as part of the Treasury's Autumn Statement.

The work has already progressed through GRIP3 and is now sitting at GRIP4, waiting for final option selection, that will depend on the proposals for the resumption of the TransPennine scheme, and if additional options are to be considered for capacity and journey time enhancements.

You might remember that the entire Hull scheme was originally proposed back in 2012, and First Group paid for GRIP1 and GRIP2 stages themselves, before DfT provided funding to cover GRIP3 option development work. The scheme, when worked through GRIP 1-3 (by First) highlighted a lack of design and engineering assets to complete the work within the original timescale - December 2016 was the first date we were given, if you recall, to allow electric trains to serve Hull during its Year of Culture in 2017.

It's a nice easy route to electrify too. It would have made a nice route on which to test new equipment and train up new engineering staff, but hey-ho, that's all a bit too late now.

 

[455driver]

There major down fall was when part of one of there 222,s sets was dropped off the lifting jacks at Croften Depot damaging it beyond repair so then robbing them of a set.

Would that be the coach that fell off the lifting jacks and took a while to be repaired?

 

[55z]

These may not be class 800 as they electric with diesel engines so they can run of route i.e. via Lincoln and run to Beverley also can run Doncaster / Selby to Hull without the wires. Probably a follow on order after the West of England trains. ALSO the order is subject to Hull Trains getting an extension to their current operating licence. Most of this is in the Hull Trains announcement.

 

[321over360]

Its nice that Hull Trains are seeking to obtain some better trains for their service, honestly when I used to travel now and then to Hull when a family member was in Uni up there, I did not like the 180s as found the seating very cramped and the air-conditioning was also very lousy unlike the Class 222 Pioneers which were far superior units to the 180s and was a shame the DFT told HT to cascade them to EMT and just have 180s as that caused so many delays and disruption as they were the most unreliable DEMUS going on the whole Rail Network and did tarnish their reputation badly for a while due to all the issues. Hopefully with a newer and more reliable fleet, HT will once again be the best Open Access operator

 

[HSTEd]

The best stock Hull Trains had was that electric hauled Mark 3 rake they had.
Travelled on it a couple of times Grantham-Doncaster.

 

[cj_1985]

Nowhere does it say (unless I've missed it) that these will be class 800s.
Could well be AT300s if they are to have proper bi mode function

 

[Bungle965]

The best stock Hull Trains had was that electric hauled Mark 3 rake they had.
Travelled on it a couple of times Grantham-Doncaster.

Except those locos were electric so could not travel to Hull which defeats the point of Hull Trains.
Sam

 

[LNW-GW Joint]

Having read the announcement, I'm not clear if an order has been placed or not. There is nothing on the Hitachi web site.
"Investing £68m in new trains" is not quite the same as "ordering new trains".
If the order is dependent on a 10-year access agreement then it won't happen until ORR and NR confirm the contract extension, which might take some time.
Advertising 140mph is also rather premature seeing as there is no funded plan to deliver that on the ECML yet.

The Newton Aycliffe factory was officially opened today by the PM, Chancellor and SoS.
https://www.gov.uk/government/news/train-manufacturing-officially-returns-to-the-north-east

The new train factory, the firm’s first in Europe, will build the next generation of trains for the East Coast and Great Western main lines, as well as the Scottish commuter trains

http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-england-tees-34130229

The Hitachi plant in Newton Aycliffe will employ 750 workers assembling high-speed Intercity trains for the East Coast and Great Western main lines using parts produced in Japan

 

[43074]

The Railway Gazette had this to say on the new trains, suggesting they will be Hitachi units.

UK: East Yorkshire to London open access inter-city operator Hull Trains announced a £68m plan to order five Hitachi electro-diesel multiple-units on September 3.

These would enter service in 2020, subject to the successful completion of negotiations with infrastructure manager Network Rail and regulator ORR for a new 10-year track access agreement which would start when Hull Trains’ current rights end in 2019. A leasing company to finance the order has not yet been selected.

Hull Trains said the five-car Hitachi trainsets would have 320 seats, compared to 266 on its existing fleet of Alstom Class 180 five-car diesel multiple-units. They would be capable of running at up to 225 km/h, subject to line speeds being increased from the current 200 km/h limit.

‘The new units will bring an even higher quality environment for passengers with new interiors, enhanced catering, air-conditioning and a quieter environment due to electric traction, all areas that we know are important to passengers’, said Managing Director Will Dunnett.

In a message to stakeholders, Dunnett said the track access application included the purchase of the electro-diesel trains because of ‘uncertainty around the government’s plans for electrification of the Trans-Pennine route.’

Hull Trains is involved in the development of plans for electrification of the route from Hull to the East Coast Main Line, but ‘the bi-mode units deliver the benefits of electrification now’, said Dunnett. ‘They also ensure that we can continue to serve stations such as Beverley after electrification of the Hull to Selby track is completed. The dual-function of the units also means that we can keep passengers on trains during disruption, which we would not be able to do in fully-electric units.’

 

[XCTurbostar]

I think Hull Trains have done the right thing here. This will unify their fleet with First Great Western and Virgin Trains East Coast so passengers should be fairly used to the experience when they join a service.

This also marks the end to HSTs with Grand Central. Most likely, some of the displaced 180s will replace the HSTs and then when FGW stop leasing their 180s there may be another operator who could jump in?

Thanks,
Ross

 

[43074]

This also marks the end to HSTs with Grand Central. Most likely, some of the displaced 180s will replace the HSTs and then when FGW stop leasing their 180s there may be another operator who could jump in?

Thanks,
Ross

Nope, the GW electrification scheme has already sorted those out: there was a Grand Central press release a few months ago explaining their plans to take the 5 FGW 180s; 3 to replace the HSTs, the others to provide more capacity.

 

[321over360]

The Railway Gazette had this to say on the new trains, suggesting they will be Hitachi units.

Originally Posted by The Railway Gazette
UK: East Yorkshire to London open access inter-city operator Hull Trains announced a £68m plan to order five Hitachi electro-diesel multiple-units on September 3.

These would enter service in 2020, subject to the successful completion of negotiations with infrastructure manager Network Rail and regulator ORR for a new 10-year track access agreement which would start when Hull Trains’ current rights end in 2019. A leasing company to finance the order has not yet been selected.

Hull Trains said the five-car Hitachi trainsets would have 320 seats, compared to 266 on its existing fleet of Alstom Class 180 five-car diesel multiple-units. They would be capable of running at up to 225 km/h, subject to line speeds being increased from the current 200 km/h limit.

‘The new units will bring an even higher quality environment for passengers with new interiors, enhanced catering, air-conditioning and a quieter environment due to electric traction, all areas that we know are important to passengers’, said Managing Director Will Dunnett.

In a message to stakeholders, Dunnett said the track access application included the purchase of the electro-diesel trains because of ‘uncertainty around the government’s plans for electrification of the Trans-Pennine route.’

Hull Trains is involved in the development of plans for electrification of the route from Hull to the East Coast Main Line, but ‘the bi-mode units deliver the benefits of electrification now’, said Dunnett. ‘They also ensure that we can continue to serve stations such as Beverley after electrification of the Hull to Selby track is completed. The dual-function of the units also means that we can keep passengers on trains during disruption, which we would not be able to do in fully-electric units.’

Since when do Hull Trains serve Beverley as I have never known any to serve this station. The only ones that ever did was Northern Rail on the Scarborough/Bridlington services from Hull and this is not on the Hull to Selby line, someone has made a mistake there

 

[XCTurbostar]

Nope, the GW electrification scheme has already sorted those out: there was a Grand Central press release a few months ago explaining their plans to take the 5 FGW 180s; 3 to replace the HSTs, the others to provide more capacity.

Ahhh I see,
Thank you for the information!

Thanks,
Ross

 

[Bungle965]

Since when do Hull Trains serve Beverley as I have never known any to serve this station. The only ones that ever did was Northern Rail on the Scarborough/Bridlington services from Hull and this is not on the Hull to Selby line, someone has made a mistake there

They do have a look here.
http://www.railforums.co.uk/showpost.php?p=1478554&postcount=8
Sam

 

[321over360]

They do have a look here.
http://www.railforums.co.uk/showpost.php?p=1478554&postcount=8
Sam

Must be a new service they have introduced since I last used there services back in 2012. Any idea when they first started running to there?

 

[MrCub]

One of the things I'm not sure about is the current obsession for 5 car units. Many of the new orders feature 5 car units. Why 5? I'm fearful of CrossCountry style overcrowding problems appearing on many routes. I know HT doesn't use long trains, but what about future-proofing? These 5 car units are appearing everywhere; are they really sufficient for the next, say, 20 years? Interested in other people's views on this.

 

[Bungle965]

Must be a new service they have introduced since I last used there services back in 2012. Any idea when they first started running to there?

4 February 2015, I believe it was.
Sam

 

[ainsworth74]

Since when do Hull Trains serve Beverley as I have never known any to serve this station. The only ones that ever did was Northern Rail on the Scarborough/Bridlington services from Hull and this is not on the Hull to Selby line, someone has made a mistake there

No there is no mistake Hull Trains have been serving Beverley since February 2015:

Graham Stuart, campaigning Member of Parliament for Beverley and Holderness, is delighted over the move from First Hull Trains to give the residents of Beverley a direct train service to London Kings Cross Station which will commence from Wednesday 4th February. This announcement comes after months of hard work to gain approval from the Office of Rail Regulation.

This is the first ever direct service to run from Beverley to London and the first service to provide access to free 4G enabled Wi-Fi across all carriages.

Commenting on the announcement, Graham said: “I congratulate First Hull Trains on listening to their customers and providing this service that will see Beverley and East Riding connected to the Capital like never before; supporting tourism and creating new opportunities for businesses.

“This follows the announcement of the electrification of the Hull to Selby line last year and the Government’s plans to invest £1 billion in the northern rail network over the next five years. Improving transport links is a vital part of the creation of a Northern Powerhouse and the Government’s long term economic plan.”

East Riding of Yorkshire Ward Councillor, David Elvidge said, “This is really great news that residents of Beverley will be able to enjoy a direct train service to London. Many people need to get to the Capital for business and people also like to travel to the City for short breaks. Perhaps the most obvious benefit of this new service is the boost it will bring to tourism, allowing people to escape from London to enjoy a weekend in Beverley.”

Will Dunnett, Managing Director of First Hull Trains said, “We believe that 2015 will be a significant year for First Hull Trains as we continue to support and promote Hull and East Riding through our revenue growth and through our 108 local employees.”

Ends

Source

 

[superalbs]

Where are the 180s going to go now, stay with HT or even more for GC?

 

[ainsworth74]

Where are the 180s going to go now, stay with HT or even more for GC?

HT will be ditching their 180s (and not before time a real shame they couldn't keep the 222s) so they'll be going to anyone who wants them! GC might take them but they're already going to have ten at that point so it depends on if they can do anything with four more.

 

[swt_passenger]

This also marks the end to HSTs with Grand Central. Most likely, some of the displaced 180s will replace the HSTs and then when FGW stop leasing their 180s there may be another operator who could jump in?

GC had already announced by means of a track access application that they were taking on the ex GW 180s to replace their HSTs, this HT decision simply makes even more 180s available if GC need them.

However the GW direct award franchise agreement has also confirmed that GWs 180s are off to GC, from 12/16, with four units then being subleased back if the IEPs have not arrived by then.

 

[NotATrainspott]

Nowhere does it say (unless I've missed it) that these will be class 800s.
Could well be AT300s if they are to have proper bi mode function

The Class 800 and Class 801 trains are members of the AT300 family, as is the Class 395 used on HS1. Whether or not further 26m AT300 orders will come under those class numbers is something we don't yet know, but it would seem quite reasonable for the Hull Trains units to be 800s. The Cornwall AT300s are to be specced with larger diesel tanks and without the limiter on their engines so that they can run for longer distances over the more challenging unelectrified terrain that way. Such modifications over the normal bi-mode specification won't be needed for Hull Trains.

 

[LNW-GW Joint]

One of the things I'm not sure about is the current obsession for 5 car units. Many of the new orders feature 5 car units. Why 5? I'm fearful of CrossCountry style overcrowding problems appearing on many routes. I know HT doesn't use long trains, but what about future-proofing? These 5 car units are appearing everywhere; are they really sufficient for the next, say, 20 years? Interested in other people's views on this.

It's because 5-cars doubled up is currently the longest train you can get on most main lines.
That means you can split trains to different destinations en route, which is what all the 800 series operators are doing.
Single 4-car trains would be to too small, and double 6-car (26m) trains would be problematic on most routes.

 

[The Ham]

One of the things I'm not sure about is the current obsession for 5 car units. Many of the new orders feature 5 car units. Why 5? I'm fearful of CrossCountry style overcrowding problems appearing on many routes. I know HT doesn't use long trains, but what about future-proofing? These 5 car units are appearing everywhere; are they really sufficient for the next, say, 20 years? Interested in other people's views on this.

It depends on how they are used, the problem with XC is there's not enough of them (and 37 of their fleet of 57 voyagers are only 4 coaches long, making things worse than if they were all 5 coach trains).

Flows on our railways tend to be tidal, with quite a large percentage of the daily passengers into cities of a morning with the reverse in the evening, by being able to run 5 coach trains contra peak flows and 10 coach trains with the peak flows rather than fixed length 8 coach trains TOC's can better match rolling stock to passenger demand.

Add to that the AT300's currently on order are 26m long, meaning that they can fit more passengers per coach than a train with 23m long coaches. A 5 coach Voyager has 250 seats whilst a 5 coach AT300 has 315 seats (26% more, or getting on for a 6 coach long train as there is less space taken up with doors).

 

[Philip Phlopp]

One of the things I'm not sure about is the current obsession for 5 car units. Many of the new orders feature 5 car units. Why 5? I'm fearful of CrossCountry style overcrowding problems appearing on many routes. I know HT doesn't use long trains, but what about future-proofing? These 5 car units are appearing everywhere; are they really sufficient for the next, say, 20 years? Interested in other people's views on this.

It's ultimately down to platform lengths, the (sensible) reluctance to use selective door opening at principle stations and the attempts to find the best coach length and number of carriages for the route on which the stock will operate.

The train length for IEP is set out in the Train Technical Specifications document, which works on 130m, 208m and 234m train lengths (i.e 5 car, 8 car and 9 car - the 8 car will no longer be delivered). The TTS effectively requires, through the interior space volume, for 2 x 5 car sets when coupled, to provide at least the same capacity as 1 x 9 car set.

2 x 5 car sets come to 260 metres which is the longest combination of two identical length units coupled together than can be supported at most principal stations - 2 x 6 car sets come to 312 metres which stations like Grantham can't support. The 130m design for a 5 car unit also makes best use of shorter platforms at various other stations - Howden, for example, is 120 metres so will need SDO or a short platform extension.