Ticket barriers at Stockport

[BigVern]

The barriers were open at 17:10 last night and tonight.
I know they are still in learning mode because I always put the wrong part of my return in and it always opens and gives me the ticket back.
There are plenty of Virgin staff there talking to each other, getting in the way and annoying the locals just passing through.

Are there plans for barriers at Crewe? - I've noticed human ticket checks there recently. They seem to have lots of staff but don't check too many tickets.

 

[crehld]

Are there plans for barriers at Crewe? - I've noticed human ticket checks there recently. They seem to have lots of staff but don't check too many tickets.

Yep. Work currently being undertaken in booking hall. It Looks like electrical work has also taken place in the subway to allow barriers to go in.

 

[CC 72100]

Frankly the installation of ticket barriers (and I do wonder, are they still closed at 2200?) is unlikely to improve the relative frequency of ticket checking onboard certain services from Stockport.

Well considering that the barriers are on the station and the on-train checks are on the train, then you're probably right. What is your point exactly?

 

[Jonfun]

It will have a positive effect (generally speaking) on onboard ticket checks, as less time will be spent having to deal with selling tickets to people who made honest mistakes like walking past the ticket machines, ticket office, signs saying you must buy your ticket before boarding the train etc. Revenue Inspectors (where provided) will be able to dedicate more time to those people who have made other honest mistakes like forgetting they'd actually travelled from Stoke and asking for a ticket from Stockport, or those going straight into the toilet at Macc etc.

 

[northwichcat]

Yep. Work currently being undertaken in booking hall. It Looks like electrical work has also taken place in the subway to allow barriers to go in.

As part of the Direct Award Crewe's supposed to get ticket barriers, free wi-fi, a new cleaning and maintenance programme and new community champions to lead relationships with communities (whatever that means.)

http://maps.dft.gov.uk/west-coast/#line2

Stockport's also supposed to get the same. I don't think they've provided the free wi-fi yet: http://maps.dft.gov.uk/west-coast/#line5

 

[edwin_m]

Stockport's also supposed to get the same. I don't think they've provided the free wi-fi yet: http://maps.dft.gov.uk/west-coast/#line5

Last time I checked, you could get "The Cloud" if you were reasonably close to Starbucks.

 

[Starmill]

Well considering that the barriers are on the station and the on-train checks are on the train, then you're probably right. What is your point exactly?

How many onboard ticket checks do you think take place on the trains that depart Stockport after 2200? The ATW is probably the only one!

I noticed that at 1730 last Sunday the gates were all open. This is a very busy time for long-distance travel and Stockport is reasonably busy at that time so it's a bit surprising really.

 

[sheff1]

I passed through Stockport yesterday for the first time since the barriers were introduced. At 1600 they were wide open with no Welcome Hosts to be seen. At 2100 the situation was the same. Have they given up using them already ?

 

[6Gman]

I passed through Stockport yesterday for the first time since the barriers were introduced. At 1600 they were wide open with no Welcome Hosts to be seen. At 2100 the situation was the same. Have they given up using them already ?

My experience, certainly at ATW stations like Chester and Shrewsbury, is that the barriers get very, very tired by mid-afternoon and have to have a little sleep.

 

[Bletchleyite]

My experience, certainly at ATW stations like Chester and Shrewsbury, is that the barriers get very, very tired by mid-afternoon and have to have a little sleep.

I think we have a lazy type at Bletchley then. Once a week at best.

 

[CC 72100]

How many onboard ticket checks do you think take place on the trains that depart Stockport after 2200? The ATW is probably the only one!

Probably not that many - but while Jonfun provides a good explanation (Thanks!), I'm otherwise struggling to understand the link and the point you're trying to make. :-?

 

[LowLevel]

Not only that, I often witnessed people managing to keep a low profile on services between Sheffield and Leeds to avoid payment - on at Swinton, off at Outwood for example, I saw another the other day, already on the EMT train when I got on at Manchester Oxford Road, paid for a Piccadilly to Sheffield ticket when challenged - I've no idea how train staff remember who wasn't on the train before their last check, often they appear to rely on passengers positively presenting tickets on the busy services - plus at peak periods, there's little hope of being able to walk along the train. For me, barriers are the way of making sure my fellow scumbag free riders don't escape payments.

In a nutshell, you basically have it. I certainly can't remember on a full train with 300 + passengers who was and wasn't there. I occasionally ask on instinct and get lucky, or have to make an embarrassing 'ah yes, I've already seen you' climb down.

Generally just presence helps and I occasionally operate entrapment - I always go down between Lime Street and Manchester as I'm certainly not scared of the Widnes scroats and there's lots of money to be made out of chancers. However I sometimes leave one of the first two coaches unchecked on purpose and then do a full grip after Man Picc and it's amazing how often you get a 'you've already seen it guv' bite on the fishing line.

I also always do a full grip after a crew change, ignoring the moans of Doris and Ada at having to get their advances out again for the second and last time in 5.5 hours.

I'm actually quite pleasant and calm in real life but I do enjoy making the odd fare evader's life a misery

Just for confirmation - I do not tend to grip Stockport to Man Picc as I've enough to do checking connections and being at the rear for those horrible narrow platforms (if someone does go under I want the best chance of receiving a stop signal). I do it from time to time though to keep folk on their toes though !

 

[Clip]

I passed through Stockport yesterday for the first time since the barriers were introduced. At 1600 they were wide open with no Welcome Hosts to be seen. At 2100 the situation was the same. Have they given up using them already ?

Well thinking about it a bit more rationally, we are still in summer holiday times and maybe they just don't have the staff available because theyre on leave to cover it and think why bother until the kids go back to school and the commuters come back to the trains?

Its kind of how it works.

 

[Starmill]

Probably not that many - but while Jonfun provides a good explanation (Thanks!), I'm otherwise struggling to understand the link and the point you're trying to make. :-?

Sigh. The barriers need to be closed for the last few trains of the night because tickets are never checked on these trains, so some of the passengers on them travel for free because they know they will get away with it. If more guards checked tickets on last trains from Manchester it would be less of a problem.

Conversely, if passengers are arriving at barriered stations guards are more likely to be pushed into actually selling tickets to people who don't have them because otherwise there will be very long excess fares queues - which can draw complaints. This is particularly noticeable when a big revenue exercise takes place at Piccadilly.

However. If the barriers are open at the times when they are really needed to make sure everyone is paying, which includes in the hour before the station closes nothing will change. Barriering the station is solving the more difficult half of the problem. The easier half is to get guards to check tickets more often. We could start by looking at time they are currently wasting operating doors instead of interacting with customers...

 

[gnolife]

How many onboard ticket checks do you think take place on the trains that depart Stockport after 2200? The ATW is probably the only one!

The EMT is also very good (IE almost without fail) on checking tickets, and the CrossCountry has a ticket inspection more times than not in my experience, although sometimes not until after Macclesfield. I've never, ever had my ticket checked on the last Manchester Airport of the night, and can't speak for last departures on the other lines (I'm generally not after being in Buxton at midnight)

 

[Starmill]

I also always do a full grip after a crew change, ignoring the moans of Doris and Ada at having to get their advances out again for the second and last time in 5.5 hours.

This is an excellent solution, and I wish more TOCs would encourage it. People who have tickets should quite happy to show them again on fairly long journeys, although it tends to be easier for people to understand that if an announcement is made apologising if you've had your ticket checked already, but asking for all tickets to be ready for inspection again.
--- old post above --- --- new post below ---

The EMT is also very good (IE almost without fail) on checking tickets, and the CrossCountry has a ticket inspection more times than not in my experience, although sometimes not until after Macclesfield. I've never, ever had my ticket checked on the last Manchester Airport of the night, and can't speak for last departures on the other lines (I'm generally not after being in Buxton at midnight)

I don't use EMT to Sheffield very often (I had forgotten that last one) but yes I have never made it there without a ticket check. The guard is also usually checking somewhere in the train between Piccadilly and Stockport.

I mentioned ATW on the basis that I have never been on their train departing Piccadilly for the guard not then to commence the ticket check before Stockport.

The 2246 Wilmslow, 2304 Crewe and 2355 Airport have been free every single time I've used them, which must be 50 or 60 times this year alone.

 

[LowLevel]

It does help I think that EMT push their local guards in particular to be visible, proactive etc - I know very few who aren't out and about on a regular basis. When I leave the back cab after Nottingham, Sheffield and Manchester certainly I don't go back to it until I've been up and down a few times after stations to my satisfaction, as long as I've got a middle cab to work from as well for announcements etc. I usually get a quick sit down after Alfreton, and after somewhere between Earles and Hazel Grove until Stockport, then I work from the rear until after Oxford Road unless there's something I need to do further up. This is my drink and a quick chill out time on a 3 hour trip, the reason being explained shortly. Then after Manchester I keep going up and down until I've got everyone up to and including Widnes then retire to sort my stuff out from whatever time I get done after South Parkway to Lime Street (I'm usually still in the middle at LPY and work backwards from there).

At Lime Street I'm meant to have a 20 minute break. In practice I spend chunks of this shutting the doors up for the cleaners and answering questions that are clearly available next to the train on the destination screen while some gormless chap or chapess taps on my cab window as I try and eat my lunch and calls me Warrington (I can only assume they think it's my name as they rarely say any other words with it). So as my break is inevitably spoiled I finish my tea and snap out of Lime Street and I start it all again after LPY and work back in a similar fashion all the way to Nottingham. On a busy train especially at weekends they are bloody hard work for the guard. When there's disruption it is even worse.

Stagecoach obviously value their guards and we are certainly encouraged to be visible etc etc.

 

[Bletchleyite]

Stagecoach obviously value their guards and we are certainly encouraged to be visible etc etc.

This sounds very much like SWT - definitely a Stagecoach thing.

 

[CC 72100]

Sigh. The barriers need to be closed for the last few trains of the night because tickets are never checked on these trains, so some of the passengers on them travel for free because they know they will get away with it. If more guards checked tickets on last trains from Manchester it would be less of a problem.

You could have just said "the barriers are left open when they are most needed" and been straight forward about it then!

However. If the barriers are open at the times when they are really needed to make sure everyone is paying, which includes in the hour before the station closes nothing will change. Barriering the station is solving the more difficult half of the problem. The easier half is to get guards to check tickets more often. We could start by looking at time they are currently wasting operating doors instead of interacting with customers...

I'm sure you know as well as I do that checking an 11-coach Pendolino in the ~10 minutes between Stockport and Man Pic is never going to happen, even with the most proactive revenue-focused guard in the land.

 

[Starmill]

I didn't say anyone could check 11 coaches worth in 7 minutes. But equally I think the number of tickets that could be checked between Crewe or Stoke on Trent and Stockport on the 3-coach stopper is probably greater than 0, which is what it was the last time I did those respectively.

 

[Jonfun]

The easier half is to get guards to check tickets more often. We could start by looking at time they are currently wasting operating doors instead of interacting with customers...

Aye, the wasted time being stood on the platform so they're aware of any passengers in wheelchairs being put on, or ensuring that folk don't decide to throw their bikes on in the aisle of the First Class coach instead of the bike space. The wasted time being visible so that passengers on the platform can make sure they get on the right train and not end up in Glasgow.

A Guard's purpose in life isn't to spend 100% of their time interacting with passengers. I've seen trains where the guard has spent more time reporting and fixing toilets that had gone out of service than doing the doors. If you want someone who's job it is to solely do tickets then you pay an Assistant Ticket Examiner or an RPI. Obviously the Guard should be visible and maintain order, and the best way of doing this is to do a ticket check. But to suggest this should be to the detriment of other duties I don't think is right.

If we did away with Guards and just put revenue staff on the train then all that would happen is the threads here would stop being about lack of ticket checks and instead be about trains running round with nobody to fix out of service loos, nobody printing manual reservations when the train can't ring in to base to show the electronic ones, nobody changing the PIS when it runs around saying the wrong things, wheelchair users being overcarried because the station staff didn't turn up to get them off, station staff being overcarried because the driver forgot they'd got on to get the wheelchair user off, etc, etc.

 

[Altfish]

I didn't say anyone could check 11 coaches worth in 7 minutes. But equally I think the number of tickets that could be checked between Crewe or Stoke on Trent and Stockport on the 3-coach stopper is probably greater than 0, which is what it was the last time I did those respectively.

Many of the rush hour trains are rammed and the guard cannot physically get down the train. Especially a problem when they have got to get back to the rear of the train to operate the doors.

 

[sheff1]

Well thinking about it a bit more rationally, we are still in summer holiday times and maybe they just don't have the staff available because theyre on leave to cover it and think why bother until the kids go back to school and the commuters come back to the trains?

If that was the thinking, why did they not wait until after the holidays before they started using the barriers, That sounds far more rational to me than using them for a week and then sending all the staff off on holiday.

 

[Starmill]

Many of the rush hour trains are rammed and the guard cannot physically get down the train. Especially a problem when they have got to get back to the rear of the train to operate the doors.

Northern's 323s can be worked from the middle as well as the rear. Most of the services they work are not so full you can't move through them except between Piccadilly and Heaton Chapel. Evening services departing Crewe and Stoke on Trent definitely aren't.

But we're getting a little at crossed purposes here because we're not thinking about the same type of services. I'm prepared to eat these words, but I'm catching a last train from Stockport this evening, and I've just bought the single ticket for my journey. Will the gates be open? I rather think they will be! Will there be a ticket check on the train? Will there be a ticket check at destination at midnight? Hmmm. I want Greater Manchester's local trains to prosper. I want us to justify some improvement with rising passenger numbers. The honesty box approach to revenue we have here at night doesn't do that. And what's more why do my scummy neighbors get something for free that I always pay for? If you're going to do the job of gating can't it be done properly?

 

[craigybagel]

I mentioned ATW on the basis that I have never been on their train departing Piccadilly for the guard not then to commence the ticket check before Stockport.

Sorry, I'm a little confused by this. Are you saying they normally do check between Manchester and Stockport, or they normally don't?

 

[steve a]

I'm catching a last train from Stockport this evening, and I've just bought the single ticket for my journey. Will the gates be open? I rather think they will be! Will there be a ticket check on the train? Will there be a ticket check at destination at midnight?

They've been open every afternoon this week, with no "helpers" in sight. I got an EMT to Widnes then Northern to Sankey and didn't have my ticket checked anywhere. Neither of the trains was anywhere near full. Before they installed the barriers, platforms 3/4 always had staff checking tickets.

 

[6Gman]

I didn't say anyone could check 11 coaches worth in 7 minutes. But equally I think the number of tickets that could be checked between Crewe or Stoke on Trent and Stockport on the 3-coach stopper is probably greater than 0, which is what it was the last time I did those respectively.

I use the Crewe - Manchester stopper from time to time (probably 6-10 times a year). I can't recall any occasion when my ticket hasn't been checked.

Guards are also generally pretty good at issuing tickets for passengers joining en-route.

The problems seem to be with passengers travelling Handforth-Stockport or Cheadle Hulme-Manchester.

Perhaps barriers at Stockport and/or Piccadilly would be a good idea ...

 

[Starmill]

Sorry, I'm a little confused by this. Are you saying they normally do check between Manchester and Stockport, or they normally don't?

Sorry that was poor wording. What I mean is the guard will always commence a ticket check as soon as they can after departing Piccadilly, which will be before Stockport, even though they are very unlikely to get to everyone before they have to open the doors at Stockport.

 

[craigybagel]

Sorry that was poor wording. What I mean is the guard will always commence a ticket check as soon as they can after departing Piccadilly, which will be before Stockport, even though they are very unlikely to get to everyone before they have to open the doors at Stockport.

That's alright, I was all ready to get defensive if you meant it the other way around

That said, sometimes there can be merit in holding back before doing a ticket check. For example, coming out of Birmingham I'll wait until after Smethwick before doing one if its early in the morning, because so many people commuting from Birmingham or Smethwick to wolverhampton seem to "fall asleep" straight away. I don't want to wake people up unless I'm absolutely sure I've not checked their ticket already, and that is one way of doing it!

 

[Starmill]

No problems :P LowLevel put forward some interesting points about how to catch people and offer good service; unfortunately Northern have a lot of work to do to get staff up to ATW or EMT levels of visibility.

Regarding my journey obviously the barriers were open at 2330, the guard didn't leave the cab and of course there was nobody checking at destination. All very surprising...