W Driver Only Operated Trains (DOO) discussion

[Clip]

I don't like reading them.



I think the only way to get DOO statistics will be to go back and check the differences when DOO was first introduced and even then the report gathering has changed so it would not be valid information.

I genuinely believe that you cannot get and valid statistics because there is so many variables that skew the results. The best we can get is what the ORR publish and then take steps to mitigate the circumstances to prevent future incidents. That IS what happens so I kinda believe its moot.

Indeed - I wasn't trying to do anything other than highlight that the person I quoted could not simply come up with figures for those that are DOO related and as such shouldn't make no claims that they are without factual proof. If they have it then great - that's why I asked them to share it as I, like you cannot find anything definitive on it.

 

[Carlisle]

The DOO former Thames drivers on Great Western are lower paid than the Intercity ones.

It should also be noted that most of the stations they drive through have no dispatch staff and can even be completely unstaffed. So therefore they are in reality doing 3 people's jobs.

Yes when DOO begun on that route in about 1992 drivers I knew said they got. £8 a day extra for it

 

[Robertj21a]

The DOO former Thames drivers on Great Western are lower paid than the Intercity ones.

It should also be noted that most of the stations they drive through have no dispatch staff and can even be completely unstaffed. So therefore they are in reality doing 3 people's jobs.

I guess these are the stations where all the deaths/serious injuries are occurring ?

 

[455driver]

You are I think paid extra to work DOO? So would you still want to have a guard on your train if it meant you were being paid less? Genuine question,just interested to know.

In my case I would take a small pay cut to retain the guard (most of it would be in the 40% tax bracket anyway), if they offered me an extra £10k to go DOO I would still keep the guard!

Does that clarify my thoughts on it!

 

[BestWestern]

So, you've never been to Clapham Junction then...?

I can assure you that different standards apply on the national network; trust me, I have to sit through the DVDs and read the notices.

 

[Rich McLean]

If West drivers were to get paid more than London Thames Valley (LTV) if they went DOO (not going to happen anytime soon), then I can pretty much Guarantee that all the LTV drivers will want a ballot for strike action over pay, so that it's brought into line and that London based drivers also get the living allowance on top. Remember that pay varies from depot to depot and also varies from driver type (West, LTV & HSS). T&Cs also vary.

What is also interesting, a link at Oxford sign 16x, 180s & HSTs, but are on LTV wages in the grand scheme of things, while Bristol HSS for example are on HSS wages. However they have almost exclusive HST work, where Oxford drivers may only drive the odd HST turn a week.

It will be very messy for all concerned if DOO get forced on the West.

 

[BestWestern]

If West drivers were to get paid more than London Thames Valley (LTV) if they went DOO (not going to happen anytime soon), then I can pretty much Guarantee that all the LTV drivers will want a ballot for strike action over pay, so that it's brought into line and that London based drivers also get the living allowance on top. Remember that pay varies from depot to depot and also varies from driver type (West, LTV & HSS). T&Cs also vary.

What is also interesting, a link at Oxford sign 16x, 180s & HSTs, but are on LTV wages in the grand scheme of things, while Bristol HSS for example are on HSS wages. However they have almost exclusive HST work, where Oxford drivers may only drive the odd HST turn a week.

It will be very messy for all concerned if DOO get forced on the West.

And then Gloucester West cross-traction drive HSTs and units (often on the same shift) but are always paid at standard West rate...

 

[Rich McLean]

And then Gloucester West cross-traction drive HSTs and units (often on the same shift) but are always paid at standard West rate...

Yet Plymouth HSS drive units from time to time, but are paid HSS wages....

In my opinion, just before the new stock comes in and all the changes happen across the Network, all drivers pay and T&Cs need to be changed in order to make it fair for all. That also goes for the Guards grades who are mixed traction.

However a lot it is to do with three different sets of T&Cs, pay schedules etc being a hangover from the Thames Trains/Wessex/Great Western days.

The sooner its shaken up and made a lot more fair, the better. However that's for another thread.

 

[Don King]

I guess these are the stations where all the deaths/serious injuries are occurring ?

There was a woman dragged down the platform at one of these stations in the last couple of weeks or as it happens.

And a number of recent spads on DOO services, "passenger distraction" has been cited as a factor.

 

[regulation9]

RSSB Platform train interface into google, average of 4 fatalities a year

Of course these are all PTI fatalities and not just those related to DOO or even to boarding and alighting.

For 2013/14 there were no PTI fatalities related to boarding and alighting, they were all related to passengers falling in front of trains (see page 222 of this report)
http://www.rssb.co.uk/Library/risk-...eporting/2014-07-aspr-2013-14-full-report.pdf

For 2012/13 there were none related to PTI boarding and alighting (see page 216 of this)
http://www.rssb.co.uk/Library/risk-analysis-and-safety-reporting/2012-aspr-annual-safety-report.pdf

For 2011/12 there was one related to PTI boarding and alighting which was the James Street incident in Liverpool. This was a guarded train. It's on p218 of the RSSB Annual Safety Performance Report for 2011/12 which oddly is difficult to find online.

From 2001 to 2011 there were 2 fatalities due PTI boarding and alighting issues. One was a guarded train and one was probably DOO I think. See page 8 of this:
http://www.rssb.co.uk/Library/risk-...nger-risk-at-the-platform-train-interface.pdf

So small numbers and no conclusive trend between types of operation.
--- old post above --- --- new post below ---

Yes, but we here in Britain, THANK GOD, do NOT rely on being adequately
safe. We strive to improve safety, to eliminate risk, and this will not do that....
--- old post above --- --- new post below ---


AGREED , well said that man! And lets not forget, not all signals, in fact many signals, are NOT protected by TPWS! ERTMS is still a long way off yet, and so having a SPAD can most definitely be a VERY big deal!

Fitting CCTV equipment to trains was a response to previous accidents where it was not been possible to observe the side of the train as it departed. You might argue that all trains should have drop light windows for the Guard to use, but many trains simply do not have these. IEP will not have them. So fitting CCTV equipment is actually an attempt to improve safety and eliminate risk in my view.

Once IEP is in service would it not be better to allow the driver to use the CCTV rather than rely on the Guard looking out of a sealed window?

 

[G136GREYHOUND]

Of course these are all PTI fatalities and not just those related to DOO or even to boarding and alighting.

For 2013/14 there were no PTI fatalities related to boarding and alighting, they were all related to passengers falling in front of trains (see page 222 of this report)
http://www.rssb.co.uk/Library/risk-...eporting/2014-07-aspr-2013-14-full-report.pdf

For 2012/13 there were none related to PTI boarding and alighting (see page 216 of this)
http://www.rssb.co.uk/Library/risk-analysis-and-safety-reporting/2012-aspr-annual-safety-report.pdf

For 2011/12 there was one related to PTI boarding and alighting which was the James Street incident in Liverpool. This was a guarded train. It's on p218 of the RSSB Annual Safety Performance Report for 2011/12 which oddly is difficult to find online.

From 2001 to 2011 there were 2 fatalities due PTI boarding and alighting issues. One was a guarded train and one was probably DOO I think. See page 8 of this:
http://www.rssb.co.uk/Library/risk-...nger-risk-at-the-platform-train-interface.pdf

So small numbers and no conclusive trend between types of operation.
--- old post above --- --- new post below ---


Fitting CCTV equipment to trains was a response to previous accidents where it was not been possible to observe the side of the train as it departed. You might argue that all trains should have drop light windows for the Guard to use, but many trains simply do not have these. IEP will not have them. So fitting CCTV equipment is actually an attempt to improve safety and eliminate risk in my view.

Once IEP is in service would it not be better to allow the driver to use the CCTV rather than rely on the Guard looking out of a sealed window?

Cognizant post but a resounding NO from me, for as someone who's done DOO and non DOO, from my point of view, it's categorically a Guard and Platform Dispatch staff every time for reasons which are far too long to list

 

[regulation9]

Cognizant post but a resounding NO from me, for as someone who's done DOO and non DOO, from my point of view, it's categorically a Guard and Platform Dispatch staff every time for reasons which are far too long to list

At busy stations I can understand your point. However IEP on FGW (and East Coast for that matter) will operate from some small stations that are never going to have dispatch staff.

 

[Carlisle]

In my case I would take a small pay cut to retain the guard (most of it would be in the 40% tax bracket anyway), if they offered me an extra £10k to go DOO I would still keep the guard!

Does that clarify my thoughts on it!

Fine, that's your choice, although you'd have thought trainees recruited during the final BR years or since privatisation would have been made well aware of the probable liklehood of having to work some DOO or DCD type trains in future before they opted to sign up for a career driving trains

 

[Dave1987]

At busy stations I can understand your point. However IEP on FGW (and East Coast for that matter) will operate from some small stations that are never going to have dispatch staff.

When departing a station as a driver your attention should be what's ahead of you and not on a bank of CCTV screens. That's how SAS and SOY SPAD's happen. I would also note that these much fabled body side CCTV cameras have a tendency to get dirty.

 

[bnm]

FGW reportedly had put Ben Rule on gardening leave ?

Not true. Confirmed by the man himself on another forum.

 

[G136GREYHOUND]

At busy stations I can understand your point. However IEP on FGW (and East Coast for that matter) will operate from some small stations that are never going to have dispatch staff.

Yes but station A may be like you said, station C and D may be rammed, you don't drive a train in a one station, one scenario vacuum. There are 1001 reasons from a driver's point of view why DOO is somewhat less than ideal.

I'm not writing a long list but I would suggest again, that some of the armchair experts actually come up with a list of even 20 reasons why Guards and Dispatch Staff are such a good idea

 

[Bletchleyite]

I know not how the Underground evaluate the safety of their platforms, I rather suspect it's a case of letting it happen because there isn't much else anybody could realistically do, considering that this is an operation who routinely close train doors on crowds attempting to board. However, the emergence of platform edge doors is a clear indication that the risk is considered to be significant.

I recall reading an article, IIRC penned by Roger Ford, saying that PEDs were mainly for airflow reasons and the safety benefit was very much in second place.

 

[bnm]

However IEP on FGW (and East Coast for that matter) will operate from some small stations that are never going to have dispatch staff.

Which small stations will IEP operate from with neither dispatch staff nor a TM? Remember DOO will only be used in extremis in the Thames Valley. That means IEP services will have a TM beyond Reading (Didcot at worst)/Oxford. Possibly Newbury if due to stop there.

 

[Captain Chaos]

Which small stations will IEP operate from with neither dispatch staff nor a TM? Remember DOO will only be used in extremis in the Thames Valley. That means IEP services will have a TM beyond Reading (Didcot at worst)/Oxford. Possibly Newbury if due to stop there.

It's not 'in extremis' though, is it? It's when a TM isn't immediately available which could be for any number of reasons and therefore not as rare an event as you are suggesting.

We currently have HST services stopping at Thatcham, Theale, Reading West, Tilehurst, Pangbourne, Goring and Streatley and Cholsey. All unmanned in terms of dispatch. Radley used to be one too. Not sure if we still do that one though.

 

[G136GREYHOUND]

Which small stations will IEP operate from with neither dispatch staff nor a TM? Remember DOO will only be used in extremis in the Thames Valley. That means IEP services will have a TM beyond Reading (Didcot at worst)/Oxford. Possibly Newbury if due to stop there.

IEP ? IEP ? Firstly see the post above by CAPTAIN CHAOS, secondly :

Picture yourself as a DOO driver on a 12 car set on the last train from crapsville to s***etown at 23;30 peering into a rain streaked mirror obscured by light reflections as a drunken hen party arse about at the last door screwing up the interlock as they hold the doors open for their drugged up mate tottering over the footbridge in her 6 inch heels.

There you are, one reason why DOO is not good from a driver's point of view, I'll leave it up to you to fill in the other 1000 reasons

 

[Aictos]

IEP ? IEP ? Firstly see the post above by CAPTAIN CHAOS, secondly :

Picture yourself as a DOO driver on a 12 car set on the last train from crapsville to s***etown at 23;30 peering into a rain streaked mirror obscured by light reflections as a drunken hen party arse about at the last door screwing up the interlock as they hold the doors open for their drugged up mate tottering over the footbridge in her 6 inch heels.

There you are, one reason why DOO is not good from a driver's point of view, I'll leave it up to you to fill in the other 1000 reasons

Indeed this is why at the moment one TOC is currently in talks about having ALL 8 cars operated services being dispatched using platform staff during hours of darkness at specific stations using specific platforms for a similar reason to your answer above because the DOO monitors simply are no longer fit for purpose.

The bonus of this is simply having staff being visible 24/7 to assist passengers.

 

[ComUtoR]

There you are, one reason why DOO is not good from a driver's point of view, I'll leave it up to you to fill in the other 1000 reasons

1) As posted
2) Job protection for the Guard
3) Passcom activations
4) Revenue Protection
5) Personal safety
6) Less liability
7) Less responsibility
8) Passenger communication
9) Staff communication
10) In the event of an emergency
11) Providing protection assistance
12) I get lonely
13) PIDD
14) Reduction in delay
15) Increase in company profit
16) Pride
17) Investment in people
18) Less unemployment
19) In the event of a suicide
20) Sudden illness
21) Pension contributions
22) Disability assistance
23) Crime reduction
24) Free Kit Kats
25) Fault finding.

 

[ainsworth74]

1) As posted
2) Job protection for the Guard
3) Passcom activations
4) Revenue Protection
5) Personal safety
6) Less liability
7) Less responsibility
8) Passenger communication
9) Staff communication
10) In the event of an emergency
11) Providing protection assistance
12) I get lonely
13) PIDD
14) Reduction in delay
15) Increase in company profit
16) Pride
17) Investment in people
18) Less unemployment
19) In the event of a suicide
20) Sudden illness
21) Pension contributions
22) Disability assistance
23) Crime reduction
24) Free Kit Kats
25) Fault finding.

Blimey if there's free Kit Kats you can sign me up right now!

 

[BestWestern]

Of course these are all PTI fatalities and not just those related to DOO or even to boarding and alighting.

For 2013/14 there were no PTI fatalities related to boarding and alighting, they were all related to passengers falling in front of trains (see page 222 of this report)
http://www.rssb.co.uk/Library/risk-...eporting/2014-07-aspr-2013-14-full-report.pdf

For 2012/13 there were none related to PTI boarding and alighting (see page 216 of this)
http://www.rssb.co.uk/Library/risk-analysis-and-safety-reporting/2012-aspr-annual-safety-report.pdf

For 2011/12 there was one related to PTI boarding and alighting which was the James Street incident in Liverpool. This was a guarded train. It's on p218 of the RSSB Annual Safety Performance Report for 2011/12 which oddly is difficult to find online.

From 2001 to 2011 there were 2 fatalities due PTI boarding and alighting issues. One was a guarded train and one was probably DOO I think. See page 8 of this:
http://www.rssb.co.uk/Library/risk-...nger-risk-at-the-platform-train-interface.pdf

So small numbers and no conclusive trend between types of operation.
--- old post above --- --- new post below ---


Fitting CCTV equipment to trains was a response to previous accidents where it was not been possible to observe the side of the train as it departed. You might argue that all trains should have drop light windows for the Guard to use, but many trains simply do not have these. IEP will not have them. So fitting CCTV equipment is actually an attempt to improve safety and eliminate risk in my view.

Once IEP is in service would it not be better to allow the driver to use the CCTV rather than rely on the Guard looking out of a sealed window?

The issue is that this marvellous CCTV switches off well before the train will have properly cleared the platform. As somebody has already mentioned, the cameras also have a tendency to become obscured by dirt and rainwater. This is, of course, in addition to the existing issues of a Driver having enough to focus on at the point of departure.

Regarding the 'PTI', remember that there are other serious incidents which are not fatalities. I imagine that unfortunate woman who had limbs ripped off having been dragged off the platform by a DOO Southeastern service in April, would probably agree. The railway loves to talk about 'near misses', as it loves this recently introduced Platform Train Interface. The latest DOO dragging incident, on FGW last week, was a near miss of the most serious sort. However, the reality is that we make a nonsense of this importance by continuing to push for operational practices which offer less of a safeguard against these dangers. The powers that be would do everybody a favour if they simply held their hands up and admitted that, actually, nobody really gives a toss about the safety of a train leaving a platform, and that's why it's alright to have nationwide DOO based on systems which will never offer the one person who can stop the train a view of the platform until they are clear. Then we could all stop fannying about and rejoice in knowing exactly where we stand. I wonder if that will happen any time this century, then... :roll:

 

[Kentish Paul]

When departing a station as a driver your attention should be what's ahead of you and not on a bank of CCTV screens. That's how SAS and SOY SPAD's happen. I would also note that these much fabled body side CCTV cameras have a tendency to get dirty.

Most 395s arriving at St Pancras have their bodyside cameras cleaned by a lady using a wet sponge on a stick. OK platform side only but i've not seen it done on other units similarly equiped (377).

 

[BestWestern]

Most 395s arriving at St Pancras have their bodyside cameras cleaned by a lady using a wet sponge on a stick. OK platform side only but i've not seen it done on other units similarly equiped (377).

Sounds quite comical, does she also clean the Drivers' faces?!

 

[Carlisle]

Most 395s arriving at St Pancras have their bodyside cameras cleaned by a lady using a wet sponge on a stick. OK platform side only but i've not seen it done on other units similarly equiped (377).

Noticed a few IEP coaches on lorries heading up the M3 this morning already fitted with their body side cameras

 

[Kentish Paul]

Sounds quite comical, does she also clean the Drivers' faces?!

Not seen that yet ! The stick she uses is obviously home made by someone. Not something from a DIY store.

 

[timbo58]

It's not 'in extremis' though, is it? It's when a TM isn't immediately available which could be for any number of reasons and therefore not as rare an event as you are suggesting.

We currently have HST services stopping at Thatcham, Theale, Reading West, Tilehurst, Pangbourne, Goring and Streatley and Cholsey. All unmanned in terms of dispatch. Radley used to be one too. Not sure if we still do that one though.

Not to mention:

Stroud, stonehouse, kemble, evesham, moreton IM, charlbury, ledbury, malvern link, great malvern, frome, filton abbeywood, yatton, nailsea & backwell, weston milton, bridgwater, tiverton parkway, neath, pyle, bridgend and probably many others I have forgotten - and those are just the stations I know of that are either completely unmanned 24/7 or don't have more than token despatch cover.

There are also plenty of dimly lit stations with multiple entrances to platforms amongst the manned and unmanned stations that a train (with selective door opening) can stop at on the FGW routes, some have curves to the platform and varying gaps along the same.

I do understand that some commentators think FGW will stick to their promise that staff on train will be 'more not less' and that that promise actually means something, however I, very firmly, do not.

Perhaps it's my 10 years experience being run by FGW in comparison with 5 at IC/GWTC, perhaps it's the fact that in that time FGW have made lots & lots of promises and have a very long track record of 'speaking with forked tongue'.

 

[Clip]

IEP ? IEP ? Firstly see the post above by CAPTAIN CHAOS, secondly :

Picture yourself as a DOO driver on a 12 car set on the last train from crapsville to s***etown at 23;30 peering into a rain streaked mirror obscured by light reflections as a drunken hen party arse about at the last door screwing up the interlock as they hold the doors open for their drugged up mate tottering over the footbridge in her 6 inch heels.

There you are, one reason why DOO is not good from a driver's point of view, I'll leave it up to you to fill in the other 1000 reasons

You best speak to some Southeastern and Southern drivers about how they can do it then....