And I suggest you refrain from further personal abuse. And further double negatives.
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W Driver Only Operated Trains (DOO) discussion
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And I suggest you refrain from further personal abuse. And further double negatives.
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I was replying to your post I quoted above, which I also quoted in my reply to make it as clear as possible what I was replying too!
Obviously I failed! :roll:
G136GREYHOUND
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And I suggest you refrain from further personal abuse. And further double negatives.
I suggest you don't confuse me with someone who gives a toss about grammatical pedantry !
My opinion is mine, everyone else's is their own.
The sheer idiocy of people spouting drivel about things they have no knowledge of is risible beyond.
Some of you on here who have no experience to quote from really do need a reality check
They could also do with answering the question asked instead of the one they want to answer!
dk1
Veteran Member
Why not just leave well alone? Passengers like buffet cars & as a driver, I like a guard.
Ask the DfT!
dk1
Veteran Member
They have no ears.
They do but they're stitched to the Treasury...
BestWestern
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Have a Google, you want to search Platform Train Interface and Dispatch Corridor.
Mainline rail requires Drivers (where DOO), Guards and platform staff to correctly exercise their duty of care for those on trains and platforms. Simply dispatching a train while passengers scrum on the edge of the platform just inches away, is not acceptable. If somebody were to be dragged by a departing train, the person/people responsible for the train moving away would be accountable. All staff are under very clear instruction not to dispatch unless there is a safe distance between it and anybody on the platform. Hence there is a yellow line down all platforms, and hence you will see staff instructing people on the platform to stand behind it during dispatch.
I know not how the Underground evaluate the safety of their platforms, I rather suspect it's a case of letting it happen because there isn't much else anybody could realistically do, considering that this is an operation who routinely close train doors on crowds attempting to board. However, the emergence of platform edge doors is a clear indication that the risk is considered to be significant.
May I just quietly suggest you take your sarcasm meter in for a service - Jonfun was I suspect being a little facetious in his commentary
All that's missing is CAPS. :roll:
Try playing the ball rather than the man. Personal abuse won't reinforce your opinion. It disminishes it.
--- old post above --- --- new post below ---
May I just quietly suggest you take your sarcasm meter in for a service - Jonfun was I suspect being a little facetious in his commentary
Unfortunately G136GREYHOUND boarded the outrage bus. Seems the brakes failed on it.
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G136GREYHOUND
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May I just quietly suggest you take your sarcasm meter in for a service - Jonfun was I suspect being a little facetious in his commentary
Don't confuse my sarcasm meter with my giveaf***ometer reading
People need a reality check on here in a blunt railway manner.
Funnily enough I don't go commenting on the PPRUNE forum about the Shoreham crash as, in spite of actually being able to fly, I've never flown a jet.
Alton Towers tourist train, sheeeshhhhhhhhhh
anyway, end of rant, few who post on here are worth listening to, and fewer know what the heck they are talking about, but some of you do push my buttons to commenting point, anyway I've got a train to drive in the morning
Goodnight and Goodbye
You seem to be under the misapprehension that RailUK Forums is exclusively for rail staff to comment on.
Incidentally PPRuNe is open to non-aviators too. Many of whom have commented on the Shoreham disaster.
You're responding to a Guard.
Many people work on real trains which are DOO and they are entitled to be recognised for the work they do delivering a very safe form of transport to millions of customers and not be spoken about in disparaging terms.
So, you've never been to Clapham Junction then...?
I drive DOO services and would rather have a guard. Never met a driver who says they wouldn't want a guard on their train.
You're entitled to that opinion of course but that's not the concern I have about the way some people are very disparaging about the opinions of others and suggesting the majority of rail journeys are unsafe.
It's not disparaging the players, it's disparaging the game
I also know a few who have worked both systems and DOO has never come out on top. The repetitive behavioural issues it causes are also quite interesting - things like drivers opening the doors at signals or AC/DC changeovers because they've opened the doors the last 45 times they've stopped their train. I've experienced this on my own trains - I've had drivers give 2 on the buzzer moving off from a red signal and then ring up to apologise as they went into auto pilot.
As someone has posted numerous times, if the guard gets it wrong, it's usually negligence. If the driver on a DOO train does it's usually found to be the failing of the system of work.
I can't say I'm particularly fussed if anyone is offended by that view though. DOO isn't as good, that's my view and it won't change - and therefore if it isn't as good existing safety systems shouldn't be stripped out to implement it
Where it is, it is - if the authorities are happy with the odd dead or maimed passenger every few months it's up to them (though those who sign the system off as safe should be in court each time it happens to defend it and themselves). Don't drag those of us on the better system in to it though.
--- old post above --- --- new post below ---
And if as an enthusiast you choose to post an opinion on a technical subject with a wide range of implications for the job role and security of a large number of railway employees who also happen to be posters you have, I'm afraid, to expect some folk to be somewhat disparaging. You probably wouldn't like it any more yourselves if someone came up and said 'ah yes, I've read about your job being chopped up and changed in the paper. I don't see the problem with it. What exactly is it that you do again?'.
I also know a few who have worked both systems and DOO has never come out on top. The repetitive behavioural issues it causes are also quite interesting - things like drivers opening the doors at signals or AC/DC changeovers because they've opened the doors the last 45 times they've stopped their train. I've experienced this on my own trains - I've had drivers give 2 on the buzzer moving off from a red signal and then ring up to apologise as they went into auto pilot.
As someone has posted numerous times, if the guard gets it wrong, it's usually negligence. If the driver on a DOO train does it's usually found to be the failing of the system of work.
I can't say I'm particularly fussed if anyone is offended by that view though. DOO isn't as good, that's my view and it won't change - and therefore if it isn't as good existing safety systems shouldn't be stripped out to implement it
Where it is, it is - if the authorities are happy with the odd dead or maimed passenger every few months it's up to them (though those who sign the system off as safe should be in court each time it happens to defend it and themselves). Don't drag those of us on the better system in to it though.
--- old post above --- --- new post below ---
And if as an enthusiast you choose to post an opinion on a technical subject with a wide range of implications for the job role and security of a large number of railway employees who also happen to be posters you have, I'm afraid, to expect some folk to be somewhat disparaging. You probably wouldn't like it any more yourselves if someone came up and said 'ah yes, I've read about your job being chopped up and changed in the paper. I don't see the problem with it. What exactly is it that you do again?'.
Wouldn't virtually every worker on gods earth prefer to divide their jobs tasks between 2 people for almost the same money if given the choice
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Can you show us these reports of the odd dead or maimed passenger every few months through the use of DOO please?
G136GREYHOUND
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RSSB Platform train interface into google, average of 4 fatalities a year
I don't know where to find specific details of DOO and non DOO but the ORR does publish the statistics every year. Clip; I have posted the PTI numbers for you as the debate was sliding towards that. I hope those were the numbers you wanted.
Release Document - Outline and key facts etc.
http://orr.gov.uk/__data/assets/pdf_file/0006/14784/key-safety-statistics-release-2013-14.pdf
Hard numbers.
http://dataportal.orr.gov.uk/displayreport/html/html/52db3925-3412-409a-853c-5ceb510694d5
PTI Fatalities 2013-2014 : 4 (NOT BOARDING/ALIGHTING)
PTI Major Injury 2013 - 2014 : 49
PTI Minor Injury 2013-2014 : 1,138
In the first link is the definitions for Major and Minor injury.
@ everyone else. Feel free to trawl the statistics of other incidents and draw whatever conclusions for debate.
I don't like reading them.I think the only way to get DOO statistics will be to go back and check the differences when DOO was first introduced and even then the report gathering has changed so it would not be valid information.
I genuinely believe that you cannot get and valid statistics because there is so many variables that skew the results. The best we can get is what the ORR publish and then take steps to mitigate the circumstances to prevent future incidents. That IS what happens so I kinda believe its moot.
You are I think paid extra to work DOO? So would you still want to have a guard on your train if it meant you were being paid less? Genuine question,just interested to know.
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Am I right in assuming that every collision (preferred to 'accident' and the road people no longer refer to 'accidents') on a railway line results in an investigation and report? These reports must include, in the case of pax falling under trains, a recommendation as to what could have avoided the collision. Back in the discussion, I proposed that, if the safety people considered 'DOO' to be unsafe, it would be banned. I haven't heard that any such recommendation has been made.
If the union thinks DOO is unsafe, why is it not striking nationally until it is banned? It is this fact and the foregoing that makes me (as merely a hopefully responsible observer) doubt whether the present FGW dispute has this issue at its core. Indeed the recent letter to RMT members with its three mentioned points of issue rather underlines that.
I read the 'role of the guard' issue as being one of ensuring that no long distance train departs without a train manager. That seems fair enough to me.
If the union thinks DOO is unsafe, why is it not striking nationally until it is banned? It is this fact and the foregoing that makes me (as merely a hopefully responsible observer) doubt whether the present FGW dispute has this issue at its core. Indeed the recent letter to RMT members with its three mentioned points of issue rather underlines that.
I read the 'role of the guard' issue as being one of ensuring that no long distance train departs without a train manager. That seems fair enough to me.
I drive both. I am not "paid extra" to drive DOO. If you look at the rates of pay across the TOCs some DOO services get paid less.
Are you suggesting that DOO Drives should get paid more by default ? IF the FGW Drivers will have additional duties due to the loss of their collegues. how much extra should they get ?What about ticket prices ? If Guards were removed is there a belief that the cost saving will be passed to the passenger ?
It seems entirely reasonable that if you have increased responsibilities due to not having a guard then you should be paid more. I had always assumed that this was the case. Surely when DOO started Aslef must have negotiated some sort of extra payments? You seem to be saying this is not the case.
How much more ?
You are now confusing the issue as you are paid, as in all employment, for the job that you do. DOO is not a bonus or a premium payment. It is simply your job. Market forces etc determine rates of pay. Take a look at the TOC pay disparity.
IF there was an element to your pay, and again I speak for any employment, that is specifically paid then if that portion of your job is removed then I would absolutely expect that portion to be removed.
They did. That was how many years ago ? The job has evolved far beyond the introduction of DOO.
The DOO former Thames drivers on Great Western are lower paid than the Intercity ones.
It should also be noted that most of the stations they drive through have no dispatch staff and can even be completely unstaffed. So therefore they are in reality doing 3 people's jobs.
It should also be noted that most of the stations they drive through have no dispatch staff and can even be completely unstaffed. So therefore they are in reality doing 3 people's jobs.
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