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W Driver Only Operated Trains (DOO) discussion

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BestWestern

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Of course I'm opinionated. It's me posting my opinions.

I strongly repudiate the accusation of trolling an condescension though. If you seriously believe that, (smiley used as pre-emptive defence of that accusation perhaps?) then report me to the moderators and let them decide. What I see is an attempt to shut down a viewpoint you disagree with by making baseless accusations. Heh? :roll:

I'm not such a sensitive sort to report you, that sort of malarkey is a rather poor show I feel. I'm merely sharing my thoughts also; liberal application of smileys to maintain a friendly atmosphere... ;)
 
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LowLevel

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Dave,

I'm sorry if I'm going to upset you (or anyone else), it's really not my intention. As someone who readily admits that I don't work in the industry, what surprises me is that you feel a guard makes so much difference. In other recent posts there seems to be a recognition (from most people at least) that the dispute is coming down to who controls the doors. To be honest, I'm struggling to see how that task is particularly onerous when it's already in operation in other parts of the country. What is it that I've probably missed ?

It's little things here and there really. Most people would probably be fairly surprised if they follow a guard around for a week as to the random stuff that they get involved in day to day, generally with little warning. The current psychometric selection and reasonable to high quality training and awareness of railway rules and regulations is essential to carrying out the job effectively and when you start whittling it down it's a fine line to take. I'd fight tooth and nail against any changes as it's the thin end of the wedge for job security - as London Midland recently demonstrated superbly when they decimated their revenue protection teams. As a guard required by the rule book for driver guard operation this can't happen to you as the train can't work without you. As soon as you make the guard effectively a bystander even with safety training it's vulnerable to future cuts.

I believe that the safety and quality the role adds is worth the fight. Someone on the platform for dispatch has situational awareness. I can see the drunk staggering over a bridge running late for the last train and decide to wait to make them safe. I can hear things happening and I can move around to deal with issues and check for hazards - things like children dropping down the gap that the driver might not be looking for until it's time to go. When I roll out I'm not looking at the gap - I can't stick my head out but what I do do quite competently is look at people's faces. A look of concern or horror is well worth stopping for further investigation. I can see people dumping bikes or cases in stupid places and deal with them effectively. I can tell people to move back when they're licking the windows at their mates on the train on a Saturday night, or see clearly when they've left the platform. All a driver working on cab VDUs can see is a narrow angle, small, view of a door that may or may not disappear immediately subject to safety review.

A driver working the doors on IEP services in particular has no advantages that I can tell other than it makes it easier to get rid of the train managers if this is deemed appropriate later. They don't stop overly frequently and they won't be losing much time on door duties. You can't check tickets while people are boarding and alighting anyway as you'll get right in the way especially on commuter trains. People just end up shoving you out of the way to get a seat.

How do you ensure the train manager isn't left behind if they're working on the station - I've had numerous platform staff carried away on my train either because they've not told me they were there or I've forgotten, as the opposite problem. How do you make sure they are happy for the train to leave?

Local trains are a bit more marginal but again the amount of stuff I get involved with every day I can't imagine them running without a guard. Everything from toilets backfiring and covering people in waste to people getting injured by doors or falling luggage, to drunks causing problems, to identifying broken fish plates on jointed track (if it doesn't go under the driver it's amazing how they can miss some fairly serious issues). The train dispatch issue gets even more acute out in the sticks - try dealing with runners for the last train out of Matlock on a Saturday night - I imagine it's just as bad out west. I stand at the door nearest the entrance so I can see people coming up the approach road. If they're close enough to possibly go under I wait, if we will be gone when they arrive, I go. The driver could never do that.

I just think the benefits are undefined apart from unexplained safety references and comments on the age of the rolling stock for such a big change in the role of the train crews.

I would hate to have to work on a train where I'm not in charge of when it can move off because so many problems can be nipped in the bud on a station that the driver doesn't ever find out about.

It would be lovely if there was some official comment from Stagecoach/Virgin about why their stance on guards is so different to other operators. Having spoken to some people from the EMT safety standards teams they couldn't imagine any of their trains operating without a safety critical guard because they deal with so many little issues that could become big ones all day long.
 

BestWestern

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But it's already working in other areas - surely that's a rather significant point ?

Some people like to drive at 100mph on the motorway. Most of them get away with it, without causing death or being banned. To them, it's probably okay. Doesn't really make it safe though.

Another 'trap and drag' incident occurred just a few days ago.

The proof really is in the pudding, the incidents really do happen.
 
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HH

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But these incidents still happen with guards. Nothing is idiot proof and there are a lot of idiots around. Maybe we should let natural selection take its course. :D :p ;)
 

LowLevel

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But it's already working in other areas - surely that's a rather significant point ?

It exists - and I have to sit through safety briefs all the time telling me of the poor buggers who have been maimed or killed as a result of it's failings. The difference with the incidents with guards is that it tends to be the guard not following procedure that causes problems - it's more often the failure of the process with DOO trains. It's a poor solution - exemplified by the fact that mirrors, used for 30 years, are suddenly being blacked as unsafe.
 

HowardGWR

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It exists - and I have to sit through safety briefs all the time telling me of the poor buggers who have been maimed or killed as a result of it's failings. The difference with the incidents with guards is that it tends to be the guard not following procedure that causes problems - it's more often the failure of the process with DOO trains. It's a poor solution - exemplified by the fact that mirrors, used for 30 years, are suddenly being blacked as unsafe.

You need, IMO to do better then that to state your case. Comparative data please. As Robertj21a points out, for the umpteenth time in this thread, were the safety of driver operated doors not acceptable, it would not be acceptable already and would not be allowed.
 

Jonfun

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I think you're being incredibly naive there. I've been looking at buying cars recently. I could get a fancy one with a five star safety rating, but they're very expensive. Or, I could get one with, say, two stars, which is much, much cheaper. Well, I haven't had a crash yet, so I might as well go with the cheaper option. If it wasn't acceptably safe, it wouldn't be allowed, would it?
 

yorkie

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Road travel is inherently unsafe yet is still allowed. If you want an analogy, you are far safer on a DOO train than using any form of road transport. If you ignore that basic fact the analogy is rather pointless. So its probably best not to include road transport in this matter?
 

ainsworth74

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I'm not sure how relative comparisons with the safety of road travel, walking or cycling are relevant? They might be if the choice was between DOO and no railway at all but it isn't so surely the only point is to discuss whether or not DOO (or whatever ends up on GWML) is the safe and/or the right choice.
 

CC 72100

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I thought that it was quite evident that Jonfun was not making a comparison between road and rail safety, rather he was stating whether safety can/should be compromised depending on cost.
 

Jonfun

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Road travel is inherently unsafe yet is still allowed. If you want an analogy, you are far safer on a DOO train than using any form of road transport. If you ignore that basic fact the analogy is rather pointless. So its probably best not to include road transport in this matter?

...eh? I think you've either completely misunderstood, or deliberately tried to play down, my point.

1 - Road travel isn't inherently unsafe. In many years driving or being ferried around in cars I've only been involved in one bump, and that caused only minor damage and no injuries.

2 - It's always stated on the railways that we always aim to push harder to improve safety, from the MD deciding on policy, to the middle management investigating incidents, to the cleaners collecting hazardous rubbish.

Why should we settle for "Well, it's more safe than travelling by road"?
 

HH

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Everything has its price.

If the difference in safety is 1 fatality in 100m journeys or 1 in 50m journeys, but the cost difference is £10m a year then the cheaper method will be chosen.

If the real aim was zero fatalities, we'd all still be walking. Anything faster is by it's very nature less safe.
 

cactustwirly

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My local train is DOO and incidents are extremely rare. I don't see why a Guard is necessary on these services. They would only increase dwell times on an already congested and unpunctual railway.

However they are necessary on Intercity and regional services.
 

hassaanhc

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My local train is DOO and incidents are extremely rare. I don't see why a Guard is necessary on these services. They would only increase dwell times on an already congested and unpunctual railway.

However they are necessary on Intercity and regional services.

Oh FFS. It is easier for a guard to see a bag or coat strap (anything not thick enough to prevent interlock) trapped in the doors, as they're looking directly along the train using their own eyes rather than through a tiny poor resolution image on a crap screen. Taking a couple of extra seconds to complete the safety check is better than moving off right as the interlock is gained, something that happens a lot on LUL particularly. Last year there was a passenger seriously injured (or even killed, need to double check) on the LUL network as the T/Op didn't notice them being trapped in the doors by a bag strap.
 

yorkie

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Oh FFS. It is easier for a guard to see a bag or coat strap (anything not thick enough to prevent interlock) trapped in the doors, as they're looking directly along the train using their own eyes rather than through a tiny poor resolution image on a crap screen. Taking a couple of extra seconds to complete the safety check is better than moving off right as the interlock is gained, something that happens a lot on LUL particularly. Last year there was a passenger seriously injured (or even killed, need to double check) on the LUL network as the T/Op didn't notice them being trapped in the doors by a bag strap.
There are millions of journeys made safely on LUL and it's far safer than road transport. If you're suggesting LUL is unsafe you need to consider whether it's too risky to leave the house!
 

Jonfun

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So I get shot down for allegedly comparing Trains to Road (clue: I didn't), yet now we're comparing Trains to London Underground to Road and that's okay?
 

Carlisle

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Oh FFS. It is easier for a guard to see a bag or coat strap (anything not thick enough to prevent interlock) trapped in the doors, as they're looking directly along the train using their own eyes rather than through a tiny poor resolution image on a crap screen. .

You obviously haven't travelled on SWT etc in the last decade or so, as if you had you'd have noticed there are a number of curved platforms where guards also rely on CCTV screens for dispatch
 
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313103

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You obviously haven't travelled on SWT etc in the last decade or so, as if you had you'd have noticed there are a number of curved platforms where guards also rely on CCTV screens for dispatch

Not quite true, these cctv screens were put only in the last at best 5 years, and were put in to replace dispatch staff at locations where dispatch staff were allocated. I can think of one location (Richmond) that had these fitted, but I am not sure if dispatch staff have been replaced as I haven't been down there since 2013.
 

Bletchleyite

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You obviously haven't travelled on SWT etc in the last decade or so, as if you had you'd have noticed there are a number of curved platforms where guards also rely on CCTV screens for dispatch

Berkhamsted also has these and has had for years. They are the same as DOO monitors but instead are positioned for guard use.
 

hassaanhc

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You obviously haven't travelled on SWT etc in the last decade or so, as if you had you'd have noticed there are a number of curved platforms where guards also rely on CCTV screens for dispatch

I travel on SWT very regularly, thank you very much :roll:. Those screens are larger than any in-cab monitor and only show one CCTV feed per screen, therefore the image is much larger than what an in-cab monitor would display.
--- old post above --- --- new post below ---
Not quite true, these cctv screens were put only in the last at best 5 years, and were put in to replace dispatch staff at locations where dispatch staff were allocated. I can think of one location (Richmond) that had these fitted, but I am not sure if dispatch staff have been replaced as I haven't been down there since 2013.

I'm sure I saw some being installed last year too. Many stations with them fitted still have dispatch staff at certain times, or on straight platforms, like Clapham Junction (P3/4) and Putney.
 

cactustwirly

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Oh FFS. It is easier for a guard to see a bag or coat strap (anything not thick enough to prevent interlock) trapped in the doors, as they're looking directly along the train using their own eyes rather than through a tiny poor resolution image on a crap screen. Taking a couple of extra seconds to complete the safety check is better than moving off right as the interlock is gained, something that happens a lot on LUL particularly. Last year there was a passenger seriously injured (or even killed, need to double check) on the LUL network as the T/Op didn't notice them being trapped in the doors by a bag strap.

Actually (on my line) they use mirrors/their own eyes.

Also isn't that a fault with the door interlock system, not the T/OP
 

BestWestern

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My local train is DOO and incidents are extremely rare. I don't see why a Guard is necessary on these services. They would only increase dwell times on an already congested and unpunctual railway.

However they are necessary on Intercity and regional services.

Incidents are less rare than you may think. One occcurred a few days ago, in which a passenger was trapped and dragged along the platform by a Turbo. As the train picked up speed she stumbled and fell, mercifully becoming free at that point and falling onto the platform. The victim of the previous incident in late April was less fortunate; she was dragged off the platform edge and suffered 'life changing injuries'. That was on Southeastern, at West Wickham.

That's two very serious incidents involving people being draggrd by moving trains in a just a few months. Both of those incidents could very easily have resulted in death. One did result in loss of limbs. That is not 'extremely rare', and if you do some digging you will see that it happens more often than it should. If these incidents happen on a train dispatched by a Guard, it is because the Guard has not fulfilled his job correctly. The last one to do so is now in prison accordingly. When it happens with DOO, which is far far more frequent, it is because the system is flawed, and inherently unsafe. As indeed many/most DOO Drivers will tell you. I would imagine that the victims of the above incidents, and indeed their fellow passengers witnessing the horror of a person moments from a grizzly end, may very well subsequently feel that the old fashioned notion of a Guard dispatching the train is actually a rather good idea after all.
 
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yorkie

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So I get shot down for allegedly comparing Trains to Road (clue: I didn't), yet now we're comparing Trains to London Underground to Road and that's okay?
The fact is LU is a safe rail system by any sensible measure. Are you denying that? If so we are going to have to agree to disagree.

By the way I'm currently on an FGW train which ia on time with friendly staff and we have even had a full ticket check out of Truro (first time out of several trips in the last few days).strike having no noticeable impact here.
--- old post above --- --- new post below ---
Incidents are less rare than you may think. One occcurred a few days ago...
They are comparatively rare and rail travel remains safe. Would you apply the same arguments to the Newcastle TPE incident? Or, I guess, not...?
 

BestWestern

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The fact is LU is a safe rail system by any sensible measure. Are you denying that? If so we are going to have to agree to disagree.

By the way I'm currently on an FGW train which ia on time with friendly staff and we have even had a full ticket check out of Truro (first time out of several trips in the last few days).strike having no noticeable impact here.
--- old post above --- --- new post below ---

They are comparatively rare and rail travel remains safe. Would you apply the same arguments to the Newcastle TPE incident? Or, I guess, not...?

As I said above, if something happens when a train is being dispatched by a Guard, it tends to be because negligence has taken place. It happens a lot more often with DOO, and I would suggest that is because it is an inherently risk-laden means of operation.
 

Jonfun

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The fact is LU is a safe rail system by any sensible measure. Are you denying that? If so we are going to have to agree to disagree.
Why are you constantly bleating on about LU? An urban rapid transport system running at low speeds over short distances ike LU, Glasgow Subway or the Midland Metro has very little in parallel with a train going for hundreds of miles at 125mph.
 
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