17.26 Leeds Skipton

[70014IronDuke]

According to one of the guards, this is now the busiest train to come out of Leeds, full stop.

There can be 20 people stood in the door area on the class 333s!

Caught the 16.45 Leeds to Morcambe train today, the screens didn't mention that the train stopped at Skipton!

Surely the answer to this is 'simple'.

all times approx

You hire 2 x 37s and 4 or 5 Mk 2Ds at Carlisle, dep 08.00 for a limited stop (Appleby, K Stehen, Settle) service to Leeds (arr 10.35) Sheffield (arr 11.45) and Nottingham (arr 12.45).

RETURN dep Nottingham 15.00 for Sheffield (16.00) Leeds (17.00/17.15) for limited stop service to Skipton-Settle-K Stephen-Appleby-Carlisle arr 19.45.

Apart from providing seats to Skipton and relieving the 17.26,
Such a service would:

a) provide a relatively fast connection for morning SW Scotland and Glasgow-Leeds/Sheffield/Nottingham pax at Carlisle.

And v v for the afternoon return train.

b) quickly become the favoured train for anyone heading south from Appleby and K Stephen, and even Settle. (currently, it's either horribly early, or the rather late departure (c 09.35- 09.50-ish) of the 08.53 ex Carlisle.


c) greatly improve the connectivity on the S&C from Leeds to Settle/Appleby in the peak evening period. currently there is a near 3.5 hr gap between the 14.49 and 18.06 to Carlisle.

Judging from the results on the Cumbrian, it would also generate traffic from bashers.

 

[61653 HTAFC]

Surely the answer to this is 'simple'.

all times approx

You hire 2 x 37s and 4 or 5 Mk 2Ds at Carlisle, dep 08.00 for a limited stop (Appleby, K Stehen, Settle) service to Leeds (arr 10.35) Sheffield (arr 11.45) and Nottingham (arr 12.45).

RETURN dep Nottingham 15.00 for Sheffield (16.00) Leeds (17.00/17.15) for limited stop service to Skipton-Settle-K Stephen-Appleby-Carlisle arr 19.45.

Apart from providing seats to Skipton and relieving the 17.26,
Such a service would:

a) provide a relatively fast connection for morning SW Scotland and Glasgow-Leeds/Sheffield/Nottingham pax at Carlisle.

And v v for the afternoon return train.

b) quickly become the favoured train for anyone heading south from Appleby and K Stephen, and even Settle. (currently, it's either horribly early, or the rather late departure (c 09.35- 09.50-ish) of the 08.53 ex Carlisle.


c) greatly improve the connectivity on the S&C from Leeds to Settle/Appleby in the peak evening period. currently there is a near 3.5 hr gap between the 14.49 and 18.06 to Carlisle.

Judging from the results on the Cumbrian, it would also generate traffic from bashers.

The only issues with this (other than the cost of hiring in the locos and stock, and training crews) would be whether DRS would be able to provide enough ETS-fitted 37s for the Cumbrian, Yarmouth, and these new S&C services without the reliability of the first two being compromised. Also, reversal at Leeds means T&T or DBSOs, and I'm not there's enough working DBSOs around.

Oh, and I'm sure those well-heeled folks who've moved out to Craven and Wensleydale would love to find that their train home is full of the more, ahem, "characterful" members of the enthusiast community!

All that realism aside though, if it happened I'd love it...

 

[BantamMenace]

The only issues with this (other than the cost of hiring in the locos and stock, and training crews) would be whether DRS would be able to provide enough ETS-fitted 37s for the Cumbrian, Yarmouth, and these new S&C services without the reliability of the first two being compromised. Also, reversal at Leeds means T&T or DBSOs, and I'm not there's enough working DBSOs around.

Oh, and I'm sure those well-heeled folks who've moved out to Craven and Wensleydale would love to find that their train home is full of the more, ahem, "characterful" members of the enthusiast community!

All that realism aside though, if it happened I'd love it...

It would also cross the entire throat of Leeds at peak time.

 

[Ianigsy]

The other issue might be what it does at Nottingham for 2 hours plus- from my experience of being there a couple of years ago, Northern's units get half a platform on a one-in-one-out basis and the other half of the platform is liable to be occupied by an EMT unit on a local working.

As an alternative destination, perhaps York, Selby/Hull or Doncaster via the Hambleton chord once the next batch of 68s arrives?

 

[70014IronDuke]

The only issues with this (other than the cost of hiring in the locos and stock, and training crews) would be whether DRS would be able to provide enough ETS-fitted 37s for the Cumbrian, Yarmouth, and these new S&C services without the reliability of the first two being compromised. Also, reversal at Leeds means T&T or DBSOs, and I'm not there's enough working DBSOs around.

Oh, and I'm sure those well-heeled folks who've moved out to Craven and Wensleydale would love to find that their train home is full of the more, ahem, "characterful" members of the enthusiast community!

All that realism aside though, if it happened I'd love it...

I confess I was being a little bit provocative/tongue-in-cheek with this idea - and the cost of training (let alone pathing and other difficulties) for 37s extended to Nottingham make it a bit unlikely it would ever happen.

Nonetheless, looking at the timetable (42) it made me realise that, despite what might be the best spread Northern Trains can do with limited resources, there are serious gaps at key times during the day - which must limit traffic potential.

In particular, while each end of the S&C has an early morning 'commuter' service, there is then a 3 hour gap in both directions, meaning what one might call the 'business' service ie a sort of comfortable 08.45-ish departure to the main city, simply does not exist.

In the evening, Carlisle has a 16.00 and 18.00 ish return commuter trains - which is pretty good, but out of Leeds there is nothing between 14.49 and 18.06.

In view of this, I find it quite remarkable that Settle is the number one station on the route for passenger numbers - with (roughly) 140,000 pax per year, or 386 per day.

I would imagine that, of these, a core number of 80-100 pax commute on the 07.28 to Leeds (and Bradford etc). (Anyone know?)

How many more would be attracted to use the train(s) if there were a) a better evening return service c 17.00 ex Leeds and b) a c 08.45 departure to Leeds?

A similar situation exists with what might be called the 'Appleby Group' - Kirkby Stephen (30,000 pax pa), Appleby (65,000) and Langwathby (25,000), ie 120,000 pax pa in total, or 330 pax per day.

yes, they can commute into Carlisle (and back) for an 08.30 start, but no convenient 'business time' train either north or south bound.

Definitely need more stock - so a cost involved - but if a set could be acquired for an 08.00-ish departure southbound from Carlisle (limited stop) and a 17.00-ish departure from Leeds (to get back to the OP's them) it would go a long way towards plugging these gaps, which would surely boost traffic figures all round.

What the stock would do in between - it could go on to Nottingham, Hull or sit spare in carriage sidings - is another matter.

If all this involved Craven and Wensleydale pax enduring a few 'colourful' bashers with Cl 37 badges n stuff, well, it might be a case of colourful bashers or no extra trains at all

 

[PHILIPE]

We've been through all this before re LHCS on the S+C, think in the lengthy Cumbrian Coast thread. The general opinion was that, to sum it up, it would be operationally impracticable.

 

[yorksrob]

We've been through all this before re LHCS on the S+C, think in the lengthy Cumbrian Coast thread. The general opinion was that, to sum it up, it would be operationally impracticable.

Operationally impracticle - or just too difficult. If Arriva Trains Northern could manage it ten years ago, it's still do-able.

 

[Esker-pades]

Your 308 EMUs are dangerous with passengers able to open doors before a train has come to a stop. As far as the 1726 Leeds to Skipton is concerned this train is overloaded and has been for years. I suggested that it omit the Shipley stop but Metro etc wouldn't here of it.

*hear.

 

[crehld]

Allow me to present a local perspective.

As for how well the early morning trains are loaded - they are packed. I board at Hellifield. I can usually get a seat on the 07:36, but it's not uncommon at all for me to be standing on the 08:03. The evening services are equally packed - this is even when you take the Aire Valley stops out of the equation. The 16:45 Leeds to Lancaster, for example, is often still standing room only post-Skipton.

At this point I feel it necessary to restate my common gripe which is the official passenger numbers figure is a gross underestimate, as recognized by the various user groups and Northern rail themselves. Beyond Skipton it is cheaper to buy day returns than use a season, and given Northern reluctance to provide any meaningful ticket issue facilities and the rather hap-hazard approach to on board revenue protection unfortunately many just don't bother to pay.

You also need to remember that Giggleswick also serves the Settle population. It is only a 15 minute walk away, has ample car parking unlike Settle, and has a train that will get you into Leeds by 9am(ish). Indeed local custom (not sure if it's official or not) is that Settle and Giggleswick tickets are interchangeable.

The idea of a fast service which only serves Skipton, Settle, Kirkby Stephen and Appleby misses the point a bit. Yes, it overcomes the issue of the Aire Valley commuters filling up the space (as someone who's been denied boarding the 16:45 (was 16:39) departure from Leeds many times because the train is full of people going to Shipley and Bingley you have my full support here). But very few people commute to Leeds from north of Settle. By running fast between Skipton and Settle you're not actually addressing a big part of the problem (perhaps I'm biased).

As for loco haulled stock - yes it's certainly possible and if the Cumbrian Coast beds down a little more it might even end up being given serious consideration. However, any stock has to be of a marked improvement on what is currently offered. A tatty 158 is a good as it gets with northern at the moment.

Anyway - I believe some of the concerns here will be addressed by the next Northern franchise. The ITT states:

Leeds-Settle-Carlisle: We have specified a new Northern service out of Leeds in the afternoon peak, specifically between 1700 and 1759, by December 2019. We are also specifying an additional evening journey from Carlisle back to Leeds by December 2019.

and:

Skipton-Lancaster: There are currently five Northern trains per day in each direction between Skipton and Lancaster. We have specified two extra trains per day in each direction by December 2019, making a total of seven trains in each direction

As for the 1726 out of Leeds... The only realistic option I can see is to improve capacity by offering more seats along the Aire Valley, either by increasing frequency or lengthening trains. Both require a bit of money being spent of course!

 

[Bantamzen]

The idea of a fast service which only serves Skipton, Settle, Kirkby Stephen and Appleby misses the point a bit. Yes, it overcomes the issue of the Aire Valley commuters filling up the space (as someone who's been denied boarding the 16:45 (was 16:39) departure from Leeds many times because the train is full of people going to Shipley and Bingley you have my full support here). But very few people commute to Leeds from north of Settle. By running fast between Skipton and Settle you're not actually addressing a big part of the problem (perhaps I'm biased).

Another problem with proposing to miss out Shipley and/or Bingley is that these are heavily used stations. Fast the 17:26 towards Keighley & Skipton and passengers for the two will simply use other services, moving the problem from a to b. And there's people changing at Shipley for Baildon. The Skiptons offer the best connection times as the Bradford FS usually roll into platform 4 at the same time as the Ilkey arrives on 3. So if you are a good sprinter you might reguarly make the connection, well until at least one of starts to stop at Apperley Bridge at which point that connection goes (I know that you can also connect via Guiseley, but the peak Ilkleys are almost as bad as the Skiptons and seem to be far more prone to delays, partly becuase of the crossover onto the branch and the section of single line).

OK the Leeds-Baildon might not be the heaviest used of the routes, but skipping Shipley would lose that connection altogether. Baildon is a rapidly growing town (no longer a village, officially!) and in order to make best use of the station connections to Leeds as well as Bradford need to convenient. The roads heading into Shipley are bad enough as they are.

As for loco haulled stock - yes it's certainly possible and if the Cumbrian Coast beds down a little more it might even end up being given serious consideration. However, any stock has to be of a marked improvement on what is currently offered. A tatty 158 is a good as it gets with northern at the moment.

It's a nice idea, but it would need some seriously good planning to shoehorn another service coming up from Nottingham at the peaks in order to give a viable S&C peak service. It would even be a squeeze shoehorning it onto a platform once it landed. I suspect that any such service would be subject to regular delays, meaning it tripping over all the other services. It would probably be more viable to run starting from Leeds, although again spare platforms are like gold dust at those time!

As for the 1726 out of Leeds... The only realistic option I can see is to improve capacity by offering more seats along the Aire Valley, either by increasing frequency or lengthening trains. Both require a bit of money being spent of course!

Most of the Aire / Wharfe valley peaks would benefit from extra capacity. And save a handful of stations, most could probably be done at a reasonable cost.

 

[70014IronDuke]

Allow me to present a local perspective.

As for how well the early morning trains are loaded - they are packed. I board at Hellifield. I can usually get a seat on the 07:36, but it's not uncommon at all for me to be standing on the 08:03. The evening services are equally packed - this is even when you take the Aire Valley stops out of the equation. The 16:45 Leeds to Lancaster, for example, is often still standing room only post-Skipton.

Thanks. I had hoped to elicit comments from someone at the coal face - this is very interesting to read. And it shows the desperate need for improvement.

At this point I feel it necessary to restate my common gripe which is the official passenger numbers figure is a gross underestimate, as recognized by the various user groups and Northern rail themselves. Beyond Skipton it is cheaper to buy day returns than use a season, and given Northern reluctance to provide any meaningful ticket issue facilities and the rather hap-hazard approach to on board revenue protection unfortunately many just don't bother to pay.

This is astonishing. (sorry, it sounds as if everyone is supposed to know this - i didn't.)

You also need to remember that Giggleswick also serves the Settle population. It is only a 15 minute walk away, has ample car parking unlike Settle, and has a train that will get you into Leeds by 9am(ish). Indeed local custom (not sure if it's official or not) is that Settle and Giggleswick tickets are interchangeable.

I do remember - I have walked from Giggleswick into Settle - but thanks. I had wondered if the tickets thing worked to both station. (or either station).

The idea of a fast service which only serves Skipton, Settle, Kirkby Stephen and Appleby misses the point a bit. Yes, it overcomes the issue of the Aire Valley commuters filling up the space (as someone who's been denied boarding the 16:45 (was 16:39) departure from Leeds many times because the train is full of people going to Shipley and Bingley you have my full support here). But very few people commute to Leeds from north of Settle. By running fast between Skipton and Settle you're not actually addressing a big part of the problem (perhaps I'm biased).

I would halt my suggested 'limited stop' trains at Hellifield as well. And maybe Keighley. However, I am trying to address two issues with these services, - a) to provide more seats out of Leeds in the peak but b) also to give the major traffic centres, ie Carlisle/SW Scotland and the Appleby group faster, more attractive connections to Leeds and beyond, and v v .

So yes, as always, it is a compromise. I think that would pay off better than just adding two more all-stations workings.

Anyway - I believe some of the concerns here will be addressed by the next Northern franchise. The ITT states:

Leeds-Settle-Carlisle: We have specified a new Northern service out of Leeds in the afternoon peak, specifically between 1700 and 1759, by December 2019.

and:

As for the 1726 out of Leeds... The only realistic option I can see is to improve capacity by offering more seats along the Aire Valley, either by increasing frequency or lengthening trains. Both require a bit of money being spent of course!

So, we have jam-packed services out of Leeds, one of the country's most important cities, around 17.00. We have stock - loco hauled, agreed - sitting in sheds around the country - and the DfT says it wants another train by December 2019 ???

FOUR YEARS????

Isn't the privatised railway a wonderful thing?

thanks for your input.