W Driver Only Operated Trains (DOO) discussion

[Carlisle]

GH

That will happen and there's nothing the unions can do about that as all new stock introduced over the last 10 years is maintained by the manufacturer

Yes maybe,but on reading posts on here its far from unanimous or clear weather TUPE or whatever should or shouldn't apply in this case so its definitely worth the union fighting further on this front anyway to at least try and get the best deal possible for the futures of those affected and ensure workers aren't needlessly thrown on the dole

 

[Domh245]

If TUPE were going to apply, the RMT wouldn't be going talking about how lots of depot staff are going to loose their jobs!

 

[HH]

That will happen and there's nothing the unions can do about that as all new stock introduced over the last 10 years is maintained by the manufacturer

There are good reasons for letting the manufacturer maintain new stock, not the least being that they can't blame the maintainer if the trains go wrong.

I suspect that as the rolling stock gets older and bedded-in, and these franchises are re-let, we will see bidders take the maintenance in-house again, because it's cheaper.

 

[bnm]

I suspect that as the rolling stock gets older and bedded-in, and these franchises are re-let, we will see bidders take the maintenance in-house again, because it's cheaper.

Maintenance agreement contract between the DfT and Agility Trains* will see the Class 800 and Class 801 fleets maintained by Agility for 27½ years following entry into service.

So, even when franchises are re-tendered the maintenance of the Class 800/801s will remain with Agility Trains beyond 2040.


*
Agility Trains West: 70% Hitachi Rail Europe, 24% John Laing Investments, 6% MetLife Private Capital Investors
Agility Trains East: 70% Hitachi Rail Europe, 30% John Laing Investments

 

[HH]

And then the DfT will wonder why rail costs more in the UK...

 

[Carlisle]

If TUPE were going to apply, the RMT wouldn't be going talking about how lots of depot staff are going to loose their jobs!

Ok if thats definatly the case shouldn't this now be the unions main point of concern when seeking a settlement to this whole comprehensive dispute with FGW

 

[cactustwirly]

Surely its not up to the union to decide what catering arrangements the passenger/FGW want to provide. As a passenger I would rather the catering come to me, so I don't have to risk my seat getting taken, my valuables stolen etc. The only downside of it is that trolleys don't serve decent coffee but I'm sure this can be solved. It seems to work well on XC.

 

[timbo58]

I see why RMT have to do it, but think it's unfortunate that all 3 grades are being targeted at the same time -and have little doubt that is FGW's plan, since explaining why you are on strike on various issues (especially maintenance & catering) is always going to be tricky.

I see your point about the benefits of trolleys but trolleys are very easy to remove when they can't make any money so there's a real risk that you'll start off with trolleys on most trains and end up with them on the very few that can make money on a regular basis and that won't include evenings after 8pm or mornings before 7am in my experience for starters, frankly I don't see why FGW can't provide both a trolley and a buffet.

I also absolutely agree with the earlier point that perhaps RMT should stop giving a monkeys about public perception since the publics view hardly worries the TOCs in reality let alone the staff.

Make no bones about it -this is purely about a massive cost cutting to line shareholders pockets -it will NOT end up reducing fares for any passenger or making your journey either faster or safer.

Just my opinion (albeit with 15 years operational experience) but I have no confidence in the scenario/argument that states 'it doesn't matter if the guards are defeated' as the Drivers will then refuse DOO anyway as I think they'll simply accept sooner or later the trains are built and the guards role permanently downgraded, maybe a few quid will be chucked about too, considering the savings FGW can make by getting shot of the guards there'll be plenty of sweetener money in the pot.

In my time I will guess I had to stop the train on an emergency '1' buzz or cord pull at least every 2 or 3 months due to idiots pulling at doors, bicycles/luggage going don the side of the train when departing etc, fair enough a door can't be pulled onto the catch or a droplight used to join/leave a new type train but that doesn't cover everything that a guard has to watch out for on despatch.
Of course despatch isn't the whole of the guards role either.

A driver has a critical job to do, it's simple to understand that one pair of eyes on the track ahead and another watching the platform is better than one eye on the track and one eye on a CCTV screen -did I see that? what was that?

 

[HH]

Make no bones about it -this is purely about a massive cost cutting to line shareholders pockets

As it's been specified by DfT it won't line Shareholder's pockets, it'll line the Treasury's.

 

[timbo58]

As it's been specified by DfT it won't line Shareholder's pockets, it'll line the Treasury's.

Thanks HH, perhaps then FGW shouldn't be doing the Governments dirty work for them?

Certainly HM taxpayer won't get anything back either.

 

[HowardGWR]

Thanks HH, perhaps then FGW shouldn't be doing the Governments dirty work for them?

Certainly HM taxpayer won't get anything back either.

There is no evidence that money will be saved. FGW has stated more staff will be required. Regarding the driver not looking back (with mirror or otherwise) it used to be his duty in steam days to do so when a train left a station.

I fail to see the logic in your post earlier (22.46 last night). If what you state was valid in terms of needed safety, then all the present DOO arrangements already implemented should be stopped - immediately.

 

[HH]

Something tells me we're about to go round a familiar circle again...

 

[bnm]

Something tells me we're about to go round a familiar circle again...

With a driver at the front and a guard at the rear.

 

[NSEFAN]

Thanks HH, perhaps then FGW shouldn't be doing the Governments dirty work for them?

I thought this was the whole point of franchisees, to take the kicking for the DfT's "management"?

 

[Carlisle]

Thanks HH, perhaps then FGW shouldn't be doing the Governments dirty work for them?

Certainly HM taxpayer won't get anything back either.

So is a railway given whatever government funding it wants and totally under the thumb of its unions for virtually everything a better alternative to face the future?

 

[Greenback]

There's really nothing much to be gained by the same arguments being reiterated here over and over again. The fact is that the proposals by DfT/FGW are not acceptable in present form to the staff side, and there seems to be just as much of a gap between the sides as there ever was.

At the moment, I feel pretty depressed about it all, not least that a resolution seems to be a long way off.

 

[Robertj21a]

There's really nothing much to be gained by the same arguments being reiterated here over and over again. The fact is that the proposals by DfT/FGW are not acceptable in present form to the staff side, and there seems to be just as much of a gap between the sides as there ever was.

At the moment, I feel pretty depressed about it all, not least that a resolution seems to be a long way off.

Sorry if I'm just too tired to wade through the previous 95 pages of this thread but is there a specific 'crunch date' when a decision simply must be made (one way or the other) ?

 

[D1009]

Over the last 30 years, DOO schemes in other parts of the country have proved that trains can be operated safely without a guard. Probably on the majority of these trains outside metro style services, there will usually be another member of staff there for revenue protection, though there doesn’t have to be.

I believe statistically you are many times safer on a train than using any other form of transport, including walking, and the implementation of DOO on parts of the network in parallel with the advances in communication technology has done nothing to change that.

My own view on the dispute is that it has nothing to do with safety, and the issues about catering and train maintenance have been added so everyone gets involved in the dispute and might get something if a resolution finally takes place. Unlike some posters on here, I believe the management when they say they want a second responsible person to be in charge of the train, but that role should be a commercial one, rather than an operational one. That is a fundamental change to which the staff, supported by the union, are opposed, and that is at the heart of the dispute, and it may indeed prove difficult to resolve.

 

[313103]

Unlike some posters on here, I believe the management when they say they want a second responsible person to be in charge of the train, but that role should be a commercial one, rather than an operational one. That is a fundamental change to which the staff, supported by the union, are opposed, and that is at the heart of the dispute, and it may indeed prove difficult to resolve.

If you worked in the industry this opinion of yours would surely change, if I had a pound for believing everything that Management had told me, I would be a rich man! Sadly I am not a rich man and I never believe everything I am told by management.

I have been told by many a Manager that my job and my role will be safe, I had it nearly every year from Managers on Network South East, Guess what happened in 1993? Yep I was out of a job and role was withdrawn. Happily it was still BR then so I managed to transfer to another depot. I was told year in year out under Network South East, North London Railways, Silverlink Train Services Limited and finally London Overground that my role was safe, whilst the three former kept there word, the latter didn't, RMT as usual asked the company in February 2013 is the Guards role safe ? the company responded by saying 'it is safe under the current concession holder, so yes it is safe. Guess what happened in July of 2013? Yep you get it, the company announced the withdrawal of the grade of guard, and by November the company got there wish. I was out of job and technically unemployed for a period of two months.

So I moved to South Wales and got a job as a dispatcher taking with me a cut in salary of nearly 25%. Now my role is again under threat, however unlike previous experiences Management are giving me no assurances and just saying we will have to wait and see.

 

[BestWestern]

Over the last 30 years, DOO schemes in other parts of the country have proved that trains can be operated safely without a guard. Probably on the majority of these trains outside metro style services, there will usually be another member of staff there for revenue protection, though there doesn’t have to be.

My own view on the dispute is that it has nothing to do with safety, and the issues about catering and train maintenance have been added so everyone gets involved in the dispute and might get something if a resolution finally takes place. Unlike some posters on here, I believe the management when they say they want a second responsible person to be in charge of the train, but that role should be a commercial one, rather than an operational one. That is a fundamental change to which the staff, supported by the union, are opposed, and that is at the heart of the dispute, and it may indeed prove difficult to resolve.

How on earth can 'a second responsible person be in charge of the train' in a 'commercial role rather than a safety one'?! Any person responsible for the train will by definition be safety critical. I'm rather afraid you've demonstrated your total lack of any grasp of the issues at heart here, both with that statement and with your incorrect assertion that none of this has anything to do with safety.

As for 'the past 30 years', ask somebody in the know for how much of that period the term 'Platform/Train Interface' has existed, what it means and why it was created. DOO is fundamentally less safe, for various reasons. If we want our railway to be as safe as possible, as we are told continuallly, then we need to not be stripping out layers of safety. DOO is a cost saving measure, at the expense of safety. It is and never will be anything more.

 

[Greenback]

Sorry if I'm just too tired to wade through the previous 95 pages of this thread but is there a specific 'crunch date' when a decision simply must be made (one way or the other) ?

No need to be sorry, I'm just expressing my frustration with both the strikes and the way that the same old arguments are put forward here despite them being done to death already in nearly 100 pages!

People can carry on if they want to, though!

 

[LowLevel]

It does my head in as well but because it's my role that's likely to be substantially altered or deleted in future I feel I can indulge to be like a dog with a bone. All that goes through my mind when I read these clueless idiot's posts is the number of times and instances having a properly trained guard about could or did be of use - everywhere from the Thames Turbo driver at Ladbroke Grove being instantly atomised (the staff travelling on that train were DOO's luckiest escape), to the train on my TOC fairly recently that experienced a fatality and had the corpse crash into the cab and trap the driver there for nearly an hour, to the Barrow bridge crash where the driver was fairly badly injured and trapped for hours, to this recent incident down south with the derailment that could have been worse when hitting a cow that helpfully disabled the all singing all dancing GSMR set in the leading cab and of course Ufton Nervet which could happen again tomorrow.

There are many others you could mention but stripping out an existing safety system on the basis of luck and saving a few quid for the shareholders is not on - I can't go a day without thinking about the future.

As I've said before FGW has evidently got a short memory about it's staff and passengers being killed in serious incidents if they want to press ahead with one person train operation.

 

[plymothian]

As I've said before FGW has evidently got a short memory about it's staff and passengers being killed in serious incidents if they want to press ahead with one person train operation.

These events are, quote, "rare". And aren't significant enough to fail the cost-benefit analysis.

 

[LowLevel]

I presume Mr Rule will be presenting himself voluntarily in court should his nasty little scheme go wrong and cause someone's death in an 'unlikely' circumstance with his company choosing to strip out safeguards where others have not. Nobody else chooses to run DOO intercity services including on the most modern of trains. Even ICEs and Eurostar have guards. It's not something you see anywhere else.

They're rare because the industry makes them rare. Start being clever and stripping things out to save a few quid (if you even do in the end) and who knows what will happen - Railtrack was great at making cost savings and killed a few people in 'rare' events as well.


There's a well known Japanese business philosophy called 'respect the front line' which relates to listening to what front line staff are telling you about changes. Unfortunately it should really be 'respect the front line unless you want to get rid of them in which case you should stick your fingers in your ears and shout la la la we can't hear you' instead.

 

[HH]

Perhaps Rule is at fault; he doesn't have a great track record. However, most of us see the ghostly hand of the DfT behind this. If you've dealt with them you'd probably understand better why there won't be any listening to the front line. They very rarely listen to anybody in my experience. That despite the fact that most have never actually worked on the railway.

 

[yorkie]

I presume Mr Rule will be presenting himself voluntarily in court should his nasty little scheme go wrong and cause someone's death in an 'unlikely' circumstance with his company choosing to strip out safeguards where others have not. Nobody else chooses to run DOO intercity services including on the most modern of trains. Even ICEs and Eurostar have guards. It's not something you see anywhere else.

Is Dublin - Cork not InterCity?

 

[LowLevel]

I suppose you could stretch to calling it Intercity though the Irish Rail 'we're going bankrupt so let's make everything DOO immediately while still staffing stations with 3 trains per day' model is hardly one to cite as a great, isolated, example

I'm afraid the chances of convincing me that any extension of a system that does away with safety devices and training is something that's okay or to be embraced is about as likely as my welcoming resignalling systems that introduce crappy level crossings and unreliable train detection systems that cause technical SPARs on a regular basis instead of a friendly chap in a wooden shed that waves and says hello when I stop outside it

 

[gareth950]

There's really nothing much to be gained by the same arguments being reiterated here over and over again. The fact is that the proposals by DfT/FGW are not acceptable in present form to the staff side, and there seems to be just as much of a gap between the sides as there ever was.

At the moment, I feel pretty depressed about it all, not least that a resolution seems to be a long way off.

So this dispute is now effectively a stand-off between the two sides? With ACAS not involved either, there's no end in sight.
So the bank holiday strike action looks like a dead cert then, along with the RMT continuing a programme of rolling strike action, no doubt targeting periods such as October half term, the run up to Christmas as well as commuters during the week. FGW putting out the same old arguments that 'DOO is the only way to improve efficiencies to run a '21st Century' railway.....'
This is all now quite depressing.

 

[Greenback]

So this dispute is now effectively a stand-off between the two sides? With ACAS not involved either, there's no end in sight.
So the bank holiday strike action looks like a dead cert then, along with the RMT continuing a programme of rolling strike action, no doubt targeting periods such as October half term, the run up to Christmas as well as commuters during the week. FGW putting out the same old arguments that 'DOO is the only way to improve efficiencies to run a '21st Century' railway.....'
This is all now quite depressing.

Yes, that's pretty much it as far as I'm concerned. I don't think that FGW are the proponent of that particular argument, though!

 

[RPI]

.......and we go round in another circle........