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W Driver Only Operated Trains (DOO) discussion

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Dave1987

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Excuse me but ASLEF are not in charge of running the railway.

No but any extension of DOO means a higher workload for the drivers and requires agreement through the union (i.e. Aslef) for which the union will not agree to. So good luck to any management who try to force through more DOO. I am also willing to bet most passengers would rather their train had a guard on board.
 
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ainsworth74

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Hmm I imagine that most passengers would rather have a second member of staff on board but I'm not sure they'd demand a Guard. Mostly because I doubt most passengers understand the difference!
 

plymothian

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Most pasengers don't give a flying who is on board (except a driver) as long as they've got a train to get on (hence the need of the driver).

This is why ASLEF have the best hand of all the unions. TOCs can technically do away with all low level staff apart from drivers (at the moment!). ASLEF hold the cards to this dispute, not the RMT.
 

Greenback

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Most passengers don't know the difference between a guard and a ticket examiner and wouldn't care much about such things anyway.

However, if the differences in training and competencies were known, maybe that might influence their thinking a little more than we might give them credit for.
 

yorkie

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I think most passengers want visible staff, meaning that the Strathclyde DOO model would generally be considered preferable to the lack of visible staff on some trains with Guards.
 

Greenback

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I agree that passengers want visible staff. What I'm saying is that because they don't really know the differences between what different types of staff are trained for, and rarely even think about such things, they can't make a proper informed decision as to whether they want someone who is fully competent to deal with a wide range of situations, or someone who just walks up and down the train looking at tickets, and hopefully acting as a visble deterrent to those intent on acting in an anti social manner.

I don't know what the majority of people would prefer. But I'd like to have more of an idea. I just wonder what all types of passenger, both regular users and non regular travellers, would decide they wanted if all of the facts were laid out for them to consider. For me, it's not so much about what the duties of the on board staff actually are on a day to day basis, it's what they are able and competent to do in a variety of situations should it be required.

While I may be in a minority with that view, I liken on train staff on long distance services to airline cabin crew, who can deal with a lot of issues and are trained in emergency situations as well as walking up and down serving/selling drinks and bringing pillows.

There's a lot of talk about what people do or don't want. I think it needs to be recognised that no one knows, and that any answer is always going to be dependent on the way the question is asked, as well as the information the individual has about the situation on which to base their answer.
 

Hadders

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As well as asking the public what kind of staffing levels they'd like to see you also need to ask if they're prepared to pay for it.
 

Greenback

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Yes, indeed. My point is simply that it's easy to say what people want, but no one actually knows, and even if people were asked it would be very easy to influence the answers by the way the questions are worded. As has been proven many times!

Sadly, a lot of people aren't really interested in fin ding things out for themselves. They prefer to just shrug their shoulders and leave it to others, or just provide an emotion driven response, such as when an A&E department is being downgraded or closed.

Like I say, I have no idea what most of my fellow rail passengers want. I only know what I want, and even that depends on the service, the length of journey and route.
 

Carlisle

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While I may be in a minority with that view, I liken on train staff on long distance services to airline cabin crew, who can deal with a lot of issues and are trained in emergency situations as well as walking up and down serving/selling drinks and bringing pillows.

Is that a valid comparison? Realistically on about 99% of Occasions problems with the railway will at worst result in being annoyingly stuck on or very occasionally having to evacuate a stationary train somewhere as opposed to problems happening whilst travelling 33000 feet up in the air
 
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Greenback

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It's a fair comparison as I see it. Not all situations involving aircraft have occurred in the air.
 

ANorthernGuard

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When I explain to passengers what my role and responsibilities actually are they are usually very surprised and then when I tell them what DOO actually means for them they are pretty much horrified. Sadly the Majority of passengers just see the guard doing tickets or opening the doors they don't know what our role really is. If the majority of the public did personally I think they would see things very differently.
 
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ainsworth74

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Exactly! Something I think the RMT is failing at miserably is to communicate what a Guard does and why they should be retained.
 

SkinnyDave

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Exactly! Something I think the RMT is failing at miserably is to communicate what a Guard does and why they should be retained.

It is a wider issue with Trade Unions, they should be investing in PR and Press Officers in my opinion which I think would assist with communication with the public in times of disputes.

Cash was woeful when interviewed last time on TV about this.
 

gareth950

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The hyperbole and rhetoric of the RMT is doing them no favours at the moment, when compared to the measured and controlled language being used by FGW.

You don't need a degree in English Language to see this, I can't believe the Unions are doing nothing to improve their communications with the public.

In none of their press releases have they explained why FGW adopting DOO will compromise safety and what the safety critical roles of the guard are. Just that what is good for VTEC should be good enough for FGW and join our fight against the big, bad, corporate, money grabbing managers at FGW who are 'crashing ahead' with their plans to 'rip out the buffet cars' etc.........:roll:
 

Hadders

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What does surprise me when it comes to DOO is that on the one hand you get 12 car trains running Kings Cross-Cambridge non-stop with only a driver on board yet you get a quiet branch line, with a single car 153 or a 2 car class 150 etc ambling along with a driver and guard.

Surely it should be the other way round?
 

455driver

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I think most passengers want visible staff, meaning that the Strathclyde DOO model would generally be considered preferable to the lack of visible staff on some trains with Guards.

Your answer is always the Strathclyde model, you don't like SWT non commercial guards and think a ticket examiner does more than a guard.

I wonder what your opinion would be in an emergency where the lack of emergency training given to ticket examiners (of any description) would be found to be sadly lacking, something the general public have no idea about, they think that all on board staff are trained in the same things, and they are not.

Why do you think that all guards hide in the back cab all the time, is your opinion (for what it's worth) of guards that low and if so why?

Yorkie opinion of guards is very clear to anyonee that reqds his post and he would be happy (ecstatic actually) if the guards jobs were thrown in the bin, trains,we're all run DOO and trains had RPIs on board (not that they would be on all trains though.
 
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FordFocus

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Your answer is always the Strathclyde model, you don't like SWT non commercial guards and think a ticket examiner does more than a guard.

I wonder what your opinion would be in an emergency where the lack of emergency training given to ticket examiners (of any description) would be found to be sadly lacking, something the general public have no idea about, they think that all on board staff are trained in the same things, and they are not.

I agree. Stuck record. The Strathclyde TEs seems to clearly to be best model around despite their reduced training and actual guards just sit in the back cab :roll::roll:
 

455driver

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What does surprise me when it comes to DOO is that on the one hand you get 12 car trains running Kings Cross-Cambridge non-stop with only a driver on board yet you get a quiet branch line, with a single car 153 or a 2 car class 150 etc ambling along with a driver and guard.

Surely it should be the other way round?

If they get their way they will all be DOO in a few years and all this talk of extra on board staff (without going into what these extra staff will be or the level of their training) is just hot air to get their way, the staff will be slowly removed until there is just the driver on board!
 

ainsworth74

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If anyone has concerns with any moderation decisions please feel free to contact a member of the forum staff and please leave threads for discussions around the topic at hand.

Many thanks :)
 

yorkie

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Your answer is always the Strathclyde model, you don't like SWT non commercial guards and think a ticket examiner does more than a guard.

I wonder what your opinion would be in an emergency where the lack of emergency training given to ticket examiners (of any description) would be found to be sadly lacking, something the general public have no idea about, they think that all on board staff are trained in the same things, and they are not.

Why do you think that all guards hide in the back cab all the time, is your opinion (for what it's worth) of guards that low and if so why?

Yorkie opinion of guards is very clear to anyonee that reqds his post and he would be happy (ecstatic actually) if the guards jobs were thrown in the bin, trains,we're all run DOO and trains had RPIs on board (not that they would be on all trains though.

The question was what do passengers want. I answered what I believe to be the case; you are welcome to disagree.

I never said any of the above claims whatsoever. I gave no opinion of guards in that post; read what I said and not what you think I said and you will see that.

I have friends who are guards but I also have friends who work on DOO systems; some of the latter see this thread as an attack by some on their professions , their employers, and the systems they safely provide for millions of customers. I know some brilliant Guards who are incredibly visible and helpful and I would never claim "all guards hide all the time"; such a claim would be utterly absurd.
 

BestWestern

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I'm curious as to how and why advocating the provision of a Guard would be seen by a DOO Driver as "an attack on their profession", which is what you appear to be implying above, Yorkie? I've yet to meet any Driver who genuinely feels they would handle a serious situation better singlehandedly than with another competent staff member to assist them.
 

Busaholic

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I think that if passengers from, say, Penzance were asked if they wanted a guard/ other uniformed presence on their train to London even if it cost an extra £1 on their ticket (which it shouldn't, anyway) I think apart from the tightwads who always want everything at the lowest possible price there would be a significant majority in favour of the second bod. The faredodgers would vote against of course.
 

Hadders

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I think that if passengers from, say, Penzance were asked if they wanted a guard/ other uniformed presence on their train to London even if it cost an extra £1 on their ticket (which it shouldn't, anyway) I think apart from the tightwads who always want everything at the lowest possible price there would be a significant majority in favour of the second bod. The faredodgers would vote against of course.

But ask the same question to commuters who travel daily and that £1 per journey adds up to several hundred pounds a year.
 

NSEFAN

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yorkie said:
The question was what do passengers want.
I see what you have been saying Yorkie, but what passengers want is not necessarily what's best for them. Passengers also want lower fares for example, but there are good reasons why that can't happen. As ANorthernGuard has said most passengers are ignorant to the full responsibilities of the guard and don't appreciate what they will lose once guards are removed from trains. In a world of ever-reducing costs and staffing levels the chances of going back to have guards once they are gone is next to nothing. I also agree with others that the unions aught to communicate this much more with the public to try and get them on-side, as it would be mutually beneficial for staff and passengers. Unfortunately they do come across as quite militant and aggressive, which plays them right into the hands of the DfT who ultimately are behind the drive to cut staff competence and therefore cost.
 

Greenback

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When I explain to passengers what my role and responsibilities actually are they are usually very surprised and then when I tell them what DOO actually means for them they are pretty much horrified. Sadly the Majority of passengers just see the guard doing tickets or opening the doors they don't know what our role really is. If the majority of the public did personally I think they would see things very differently.

That's interesting, not least because it backs up my feeling that when passengers do understand the difference between what the on board staff are trained, it does seem to have a bearing on what they say they prefer.

Saying that, the way the differences are explained will also have an effect!

Exactly! Something I think the RMT is failing at miserably is to communicate what a Guard does and why they should be retained.

Agreed. It's also what they can do should it be necessary, and I personally feel that FGW needs to do more to explain what plans it has for what is now classed as the TM role on board long distance services. Will the role be watered down, even if existing staff have their pay and conditions protected? Will training be diluted to reflect that?

In none of their press releases have they explained why FGW adopting DOO will compromise safety and what the safety critical roles of the guard are. Just that what is good for VTEC should be good enough for FGW and join our fight against the big, bad, corporate, money grabbing managers at FGW who are 'crashing ahead' with their plans to 'rip out the buffet cars' etc.........:roll:

Communication is often a weak point for the RMT and other unions. They should be focusing on the guard's training and role in emergencies and other situations that can arise on train during a journey. As has been said, explaining to passengers what might be the difference between now and five years time, is of vital importance as far as I'm concerned.

I do think that it's fair to make the point that the same trains will be running on other routes with a TM.

I think that if passengers from, say, Penzance were asked if they wanted a guard/ other uniformed presence on their train to London even if it cost an extra £1 on their ticket (which it shouldn't, anyway) I think apart from the tightwads who always want everything at the lowest possible price there would be a significant majority in favour of the second bod. The faredodgers would vote against of course.

My view is that there is a fully trained TM/guard on the services now. That's the status quo, so it shouldn't really be a question of paying more to ensure that is retained. It's not as if the FGW/DfT proposals will lead to £1 being cut off fares!

As well as the training and capability of the on board members of staff, I'm also concerned that FGW haven't provided a great deal of assurances or explanations as to how far they will go to ensure that TM's are diagrammed for every service. I feel that there will be an inevitable drift towards not diagramming every service, or at the very least rostering TM's who are known to be sick or absent and unable to work the service. I very much doubt they will continue to have the same amount of spare turns as they do now.
 

craigybagel

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Does it really matter what the passengers think though? Whether or not passengers support DOO will be pretty irrelevant in the eyes of FGW, or indeed any other company that tries to go down the DOO route.

This is an argument between the unions and FGW over money and safety, and one way or another, those are the factors that will decide which side wins.
 

Greenback

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Does it really matter what the passengers think though? Whether or not passengers support DOO will be pretty irrelevant in the eyes of FGW, or indeed any other company that tries to go down the DOO route.

This is an argument between the unions and FGW over money and safety, and one way or another, those are the factors that will decide which side wins.

The travelling public are caught up in this dispute and are entitled to have a say on the issues behind it, regardless of how much they will be listened to. The question is how much do people really know about it? And would their opinion be open to change if they learnt more?

FGW will probably be encouraged if there is a lot of visible anti union comments on social media. They may well be discouraged if the balance of opinion favoured the opposite point of view. The same goes for the staff side, naturally. Morale of those who take strike action and lose pay may be lower if they can't see a lot of public support.

The battle for hearts and minds is always an important one in a dispute.
 

HowardGWR

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The travelling public are caught up in this dispute and are entitled to have a say on the issues behind it, regardless of how much they will be listened to. The question is how much do people really know about it? And would their opinion be open to change if they learnt more?

FGW will probably be encouraged if there is a lot of visible anti union comments on social media. They may well be discouraged if the balance of opinion favoured the opposite point of view. The same goes for the staff side, naturally. Morale of those who take strike action and lose pay may be lower if they can't see a lot of public support.

The battle for hearts and minds is always an important one in a dispute.

I suppose that may be so, but I have been reading these discussions about employers and unions for the last 50 years at least and I never knew a 'dispute' that was not solved eventually by a 'cross the palm with silver' solution, whether hearts and minds were won or otherwise.
 

Carlisle

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I suppose that may be so, but I have been reading these discussions about employers and unions for the last 50 years at least and I never knew a 'dispute' that was not solved eventually by a 'cross the palm with silver' solution, whether hearts and minds were won or otherwise.

No...most but not all disputes end like that. I imagine the RMT is hoping for a similar outcome to the 1998 SWT DOO scheme that was scrapped mainly because of union opposition,despite similar claims at the time they'd retain staff on most trains
 
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