Failure of assistance

[najaB]

So shouldn't the fact that there is a passenger with booked assistance on the train be a key piece of handover information?

Agreed that it should be, but Schmidt happens.

 

[noddingdonkey]

Should we make an allowance for disabled passengers ?

I believee the Equality Act 2010 calls it making "reasonable adjustments" rather than allowances.

 

[najaB]

Over carrying is not in any way an EMERGENCY. Inconvenient but not an emergency. Whilst I accept it may be more stressful for a disabled person it is not a risk to the passenger neither does it present any specific danger.

Apologies if I didn't make my point clearly. I agree that, viewed objectively, it isn't an emergency, but to someone who is only able to live an independent life because of carefully made plans, and who is less able to deal with random events, potentially ending up tens or hundreds of miles away from their support mechanism with limited ability to get back home is a personal emergency.

I agree that they aren't in any immediate danger, but that doesn't make it any less of a moment of sheer terror. I didn't say that they should pull the passcom, just that I would understand if they did.

 

[ComUtoR]

I agree that they aren't in any immediate danger, but that doesn't make it any less of a moment of sheer terror. I didn't say that they should pull the passcom, just that I would understand if they did.

I also understand and take it in my stride as part of my duties. My professional advice and the correct information is that it is for emergencies only.

If your assistance doesn't turn up then please oh please find the route cause and if the system is broken or we are at fault in any way then we need to fix it so it doesn't happen to another passenger. If you are worried about traveling or need some form of assistance please feel free to knock on my window and ask for help. I would much rather the train be delayed because you need to let the Guard/Driver know you are on board and need to alight at station x; than have the emergency passenger communication activated.

 

[SPADTrap]

Duplicate

 

[TUC]

I also understand and take it in my stride as part of my duties. My professional advice and the correct information is that it is for emergencies only.

If your assistance doesn't turn up then please oh please find the route cause and if the system is broken or we are at fault in any way then we need to fix it so it doesn't happen to another passenger. If you are worried about traveling or need some form of assistance please feel free to knock on my window and ask for help. I would much rather the train be delayed because you need to let the Guard/Driver know you are on board and need to alight at station x; than have the emergency passenger communication activated.

The problem being though, if you're in a wheelchair or can't see, then your ability to move around the train to find the guard or driver will be severely limited. That is why it is so important that passengers can rely on booked assistance actually turning up.

 

[pdq]

Where is the aid button? It's all very well if it's near the wheelchair space, but if the wheelchair user has moved to the exit door and is awaiting the assistance to arrive with the ramp, that person is no longer in a physical position to get to the aid button. Is the passcom accessible heightwise to a wheelchair user?

 

[OneOffDave]

Where is the aid button? It's all very well if it's near the wheelchair space, but if the wheelchair user has moved to the exit door and is awaiting the assistance to arrive with the ramp, that person is no longer in a physical position to get to the aid button. Is the passcom accessible heightwise to a wheelchair user?

On Pendolinos the aid button is by the wheelchair space. On the LM trains I use the passcom in the wheelchair area is at an accessible height.

By the nature of train design, in a chair you are effectively limited to the area around the wheelchair space as the aisles are usually too narrow to move through the train.

I'm lucky as I'm a fairly fit and agile chair user in a fairly lightweight chair and at a push I could drag it and myself off the train. It wouldn't be dignified but I'd be home.

 

[theironroad]

A few months back I saw a young lady in a wheelchair self load her chair,with her still in it from the platform onto a 444. She had wheeled straight past some staff without saying anything and would seem she had had some practice doing it. While it was very swift and impressive, it wood give h and s a heart attack, as there was a definite risk of falling backwards onto the platform. Quite how she got off the train, I don't know.

As far as pulling a passcom or call for aid, it realistically cannot be a way to deal with wheelchairs for everyday use, but when assistance has been booked and the passenger is fully ready to leave the train and assistance fails to arrive, it probably really is the only way to deal with the immediate situation. at least on modern trains, passcoms and cfa have 2 way comms, usually to the driver, it is important to speak and be clear and tell the driver what has happened. Please do not just pull the thing and just stay silent, unless of course this may be part of the disability, as it makes it a lot easier for the driver ( and hopefully a guard) deal wih it.

Communication does sometimes break down and often short staffing levels mean that that while a member of staff is trying to help another passenger on or off a late running train, the booked assistance job gets missed.

I think more can be done to help less able passengers travel independently, whether that is having stowable ramps installed as part of the door set up, like on many buses or having raised platform areas in places, more needs to be done. Having more consistent rolling stock in the uk would help, as making adjustments to platform heights could be a minefield in its own right.

 

[Blindtraveler]

There is, as a user of assistance I fear still a certain amount of bad feeling at some stations and by some TOCs that assistance jobs, pre booked or otherwise are nout but a nusence and they have better things to do. An example was when I made a journey Edinburgh Euston with a booked pluss 8 connection onto a faster train at Crewe. I had booked assistance 3 days in advance and at Crewe at London no problems were encountered. What did I get at Edinburgh at 6.30 in the morning though? A lecture about turning up without booking despite having the passenger assist email to prove it, and this was far from the first time its happened and has happened since also at this station.

 

[LowLevel]

I think sometimes it is hard - but a professional shouldn't show that side of things to the passengers. I wish the system was capable of telling those booking that the station is at capacity and there might be a wait etc though - I used to despair on those odd busy days when you had constant assists and even using all the platform staff and robbing the gateline couldn't be in enough places at once. Another was luggage assistance etc being taken last thing at night - the station was single manned and between dispatching trains and organising shunting and unit stabling it could be a very long wait for anyone requiring assistance on the last trains to be taken out.

 

[Blindtraveler]

Its nice to hear someone admitting things can get tough, too often its all the passengers fault and thats that, no statement like Oh im sorry we're really busy but will do our best. I will, both as a member of the traveling public and an enthusiast do what I can for any genuine member of rail staff but not when Iv gone to the bother of booking for the assistance to then not turn up or be provided grudgingly.
--- old post above --- --- new post below ---
Also, given the approach TFL take with LU and Overground, the atitude of some on the national network is, quite frankly horrifying.

 

[CyrusWuff]

Another issue is that, rather than handle assistance in house, a not insignificant number of TOCs have outsourced Assistance booking to a third party such as Virgin's JourneyCare team, so they don't have the local knowledge regarding accessibility (or otherwise).

The net result of this is that you end up with assistance being booked for journeys to/from unstaffed stations (either permanently unstaffed, or because of the time of day, inaccessible stations (e.g. where the only access between the platforms is via a footbridge with no lift, and the exit is on the opposite side from where the train arrives), or multiple near simultaneous assists on different platforms.

 

[LowLevel]

The only time it's the passengers fault is if they turn up 2 minutes before, unannounced and expect everything to be dropped to get them on their train.

It's not the passengers fault if they've kept to their side of the bargain and booked - they might have to accept a wait perhaps but if they arrive in good time that'll be planned in.

For example if we were busy the train dispatcher might help a VIP or wheelchair user off (that's the main thing), see them to their seat and tell them there might be a short wait to help them off the platforms while the passenger assistance person was busy. Or the station supervisor or a passing manager would weigh in.

Today for example I arrived at a terminal and I knew I had a wheelchair user on to detrain. The station staff didn't arrive and I always check they have so I got my ramp out and helped them off and shortly someone arrived - it turned out we were 5 minutes early in and they were busy with someone else. There's no point me getting grumpy with the station staff or the passenger over that - it may not be my job to get wheelchair users off at that station (we pay for it in our station access fee) but a spot of being obliging makes life easier for everyone. Plus on the odd occasion it does go wrong the folk being helped are usually so thankful for you checking they have been met (or not as the case may be) that it's worth it anyway.

 

[Blindtraveler]

Agree this is a factor and it should be done iether in house or at a dedicated regional office with local knoledge.

 

[DelayRepay]

Over carrying is not in any way an EMERGENCY. Inconvenient but not an emergency. Whilst I accept it may be more stressful for a disabled person it is not a risk to the passenger neither does it present any specific danger.

Should we make an allowance for disabled passengers ? If any overcarry is bad for the passenger then being able bodied doesn't exclude the use of the passcom. What has happened and is happening is that there disabled space is having call to aid fitted. So we are making allowances and the railway is moving forward; finally.

I understand why you do not want any passengers to use the Pascom - but what do you suggest the disabled passenger does if they cannot get off the train? Given that none of the following stations will be expecting them they could be stuck on the train until it reaches the end of its route and the driver/cleaners walk through. This could easily become an emergency if the carriage does not have an accessible toilet, or if the passenger requires medication etc. Yes modern stock has call for aid buttons but until all stock is replaced, the Pascom is the only option. (What is the actual difference between Call to Aid and Passcom? Who answered Call to aid on a DOO train?).

If I as a passenger am alighting a train, and I am aware of a wheelchair user who needs to alight but no staff are there, what should I do? Run down the platform with my own luggage and hope I reach the driver before he's started dispatch?

Since my dad has started using a wheelchair I am a lot more aware of some of the issues wheelchair users can face. I can make a short trip with little planning, for my dad everything needs to be booked well in advance, there is limited flexibility in his plans and he has the constant worry of getting "stuck". This last point is not limited to the railways of course - he lives in fear of broken lifts and is very reluctant to visit a friend who lives in a second floor flat, because if there is a problem with the lift he will be stuck there until it's repaired.

 

[Aictos]

Heading home one day on a IC operator, as I got on the service at the station of origin I was approached by a worried passenger one of was a wheelchair passenger asking if the train was calling at their destination as they had people waiting for them.

Knowing it passed though at 125mph, I advised the catering team to contact the guard and station staff to advise them of this, nobody from this TOC was available or visible to assist so literally 2 minutes prior to departure the dispatcher turned up and having advised him they got the passengers off resulting in a late departure for this IC operator.

The reason they were on the train in the first place is because somehow they were put on it.

Secondly with assistances, sometimes I have assistances but if the station of origin doesn't advise me then how am I to know I have a assistance to do?

As a general rule, if I do put a assistance on the train I advise both the driver so they are aware and also the station they are travelling to simply because if something happened to the train and it needed to be evacuated then the driver needs to be aware of any assistances especially my services are DOO.

 

[TUC]

Another issue is that, rather than handle assistance in house, a not insignificant number of TOCs have outsourced Assistance booking to a third party such as Virgin's JourneyCare team, so they don't have the local knowledge regarding accessibility (or otherwise).

The net result of this is that you end up with assistance being booked for journeys to/from unstaffed stations (either permanently unstaffed, or because of the time of day, inaccessible stations (e.g. where the only access between the platforms is via a footbridge with no lift, and the exit is on the opposite side from where the train arrives), or multiple near simultaneous assists on different platforms.

But information on station staffing and accessibility is available to staff when arranging assistance. I know because when booking assistance with TPE, they've said things like 'I'll just check the station staffing hours'. Both that and descriptions of station access are also available on the NRE website's description of each station.

 

[SpacePhoenix]

Why don't trains have the guard's office next to or in line of sight of the wheelchair area?

 

[TUC]

Sometimes, just simple communication would help matters. My wife, who is blind, had an incident at Middlesbrough several weeks ago when she had arranged assistance for a journey to Leeds. She arrived at the station in good time and was asked to wait in the waiting room. Time passed and our daughter, who had come with her to the station but was not travelling herself, could see that the train had arrived and that passengers were boarding. It got to departure time and my daughter went onto the platform to look for staff, but could see that the guard was about to signal to depart. She ran over and stopped him, explaining that my wife was still waiting for assistance to board. He asked my daughter to bring my wife over to the platform and guided her on himself.

When my daughter found station staff after departure and complained that my wife had been left in the waiting room, they said that they had had several people needing assistance for that journey. That may have been the case but it does beg the questions why:
a) on arrival at the station someone did not say to my wife 'we have several passengers needing assistance so there may be a short delay but don't worry, we will get to you'
b) staff didn't tell the guard that there were passengers still awaiting assistance so that he knew that the train could not depart yet.

 

[bradders1983]

^^^Silly question, but why did you book assistance at Middlesborough when your daughter could have got her onto the train?

When you book "assistance", does it cover both ends of a journey or can you just book it for the start or finish end? I genuinely dont know, hence why I'm asking.

 

[TUC]

^^^Silly question, but why did you book assistance at Middlesborough when your daughter could have got her onto the train?

When you book "assistance", does it cover both ends of a journey or can you just book it for the start or finish end? I genuinely dont know, hence why I'm asking.

When you book assistance they usually work on the basis of the start and finish (and transfer) points but there's three practical reasons why she booked the assistance at the starting point too:
a) Receiving assistance at the starting point seems to act as a confirmation that the disabled person is actually on the service for which they have booked and so gives a greater likelyhood that assistance will actually be at the other points.
b) My daughter has two small children of her own who she wouldn't want to leave on the platform whilst guiding my wife on (and it would be more complex to guide her whilst also keeping hold of the children)
c) Although the Middlesbrough-Leeds service starts at Middlesbrough, the inward journey could have arrived late/with very little turnaround time and so with the risk of it departing almost immediately, with my daughter still aboard the train.

 

[bradders1983]

All sounds fair enough

 

[CyrusWuff]

But information on station staffing and accessibility is available to staff when arranging assistance. I know because when booking assistance with TPE, they've said things like 'I'll just check the station staffing hours'. Both that and descriptions of station access are also available on the NRE website's description of each station.

I'm fully aware of that. Doesn't prevent such bookings being made, however!

 

[theironroad]

The only time it's the passengers fault is if they turn up 2 minutes before, unannounced and expect everything to be dropped to get them on their train.

It's not the passengers fault if they've kept to their side of the bargain and booked - they might have to accept a wait perhaps but if they arrive in good time that'll be planned in.

For example if we were busy the train dispatcher might help a VIP or wheelchair user off (that's the main thing), see them to their seat and tell them there might be a short wait to help them off the platforms while the passenger assistance person was busy. Or the station supervisor or a passing manager would weigh in.

Today for example I arrived at a terminal and I knew I had a wheelchair user on to detrain. The station staff didn't arrive and I always check they have so I got my ramp out and helped them off and shortly someone arrived - it turned out we were 5 minutes early in and they were busy with someone else. There's no point me getting grumpy with the station staff or the passenger over that - it may not be my job to get wheelchair users off at that station (we pay for it in our station access fee) but a spot of being obliging makes life easier for everyone. Plus on the odd occasion it does go wrong the folk being helped are usually so thankful for you checking they have been met (or not as the case may be) that it's worth it anyway.

Less abled passengers shouldn't have to pre-book, they should be able to turn up and expect the same service as those who do not need any assistance and certainly not been made to feel it is their fault.

Must admit, saying that 'it's not my job to get wheelchair users off at the station' really isnthelping the defence of guards on trains and the increasing push for doo. I'm glad that you do do it without 'getting grumpy', but having a guard on board dealing with all these issues is at the heart of the great customer service that on board staff can provide. You should be selling it as a skill and benefit of having guards on board.

 

[SephenWorceste]

What will happen when the new intercity trains are introduced. I believe they can run without a guard if necessary. Imagine the guard is off work ill and the train still runs but assistance is booked. Stations such as Colwall have no staff.

I am not wanting to start at DOO or not DOO discussion I just wonder what happens in these areas at unstaffed stations for assistance.

Best wishes, Stephen.

 

[ComUtoR]

but what do you suggest the disabled passenger does if they cannot get off the train?

Fortunately I have never had passenger, who needed assistance, traveling totally alone in a carriage. It hasn't happened and tends not to. I know of 1 passenger on my TOC who uses a mobility scooter and travels alone. He has his own ramps !! (kinda awesome and a great bloke to chat to)

People are generally nice. If they say someone needed to alight but couldn't they almost always hold the doors or flag down staff to assist.

For them to get stuck and travel to the end of the line totally stranded until the cleaners come by is a scenario that would be beyond rare.

Yes modern stock has call for aid buttons but until all stock is replaced, the Pascom is the only option.

It should never be the only option and we should never accept that a situation should ever get to that point. Our job is to prevent incident. Robust procedure and better staffing arrangements are what is required. If it gets to the point the passcom is required then we have done something terribly wrong.

If I as a passenger am alighting a train, and I am aware of a wheelchair user who needs to alight but no staff are there, what should I do? Run down the platform with my own luggage and hope I reach the driver before he's started dispatch?

Simply sticking your hand out the door and waving usually works. Standing by the door usually works.

Since my dad has started using a wheelchair I am a lot more aware of some of the issues wheelchair users can face. I can make a short trip with little planning, for my dad everything needs to be booked well in advance, there is limited flexibility in his plans and he has the constant worry of getting "stuck". This last point is not limited to the railways of course - he lives in fear of broken lifts and is very reluctant to visit a friend who lives in a second floor flat, because if there is a problem with the lift he will be stuck there until it's repaired.

It's pretty **** to be quite frank. I have a couple of friends who need assistance due to disability so I appreciate the problems. They push for independence and meet barriers at every step. What I want is for them to have a smooth experience. That can only be achieved by pushing the TOC's to ensure they put procedures in place and communicate effectively.

 

[SPADTrap]

Less abled passengers shouldn't have to pre-book, they should be able to turn up and expect the same service as those who do not need any assistance and certainly not been made to feel it is their fault.

Must admit, saying that 'it's not my job to get wheelchair users off at the station' really isnthelping the defence of guards on trains and the increasing push for doo. I'm glad that you do do it without 'getting grumpy', but having a guard on board dealing with all these issues is at the heart of the great customer service that on board staff can provide. You should be selling it as a skill and benefit of having guards on board.

I disagree in regards to not having to prebook. If a passenger requires extra assistance then booking is sensible because it should act as a guarantee and 'protection' that they will receive that extra assistance which after all isn't booked for fun, it is booked because without it they couldn't safely travel. I've seen plenty of occasions where passengers who have required assistance have arrived but haven't informed the TOC about it and have had to wait and miss their planned trains because the station has been busy, unfortunate but with some stations staffing this is the reality.

It is no use thinking that they're somehow less of a person because they have to book assistance to travel, I've always thought of it as a protection for that person so they can travel as unhindered as possible and it always frustrated me when the system failed and that person was missed. I do agree that the passenger shouldn't be made to feel as if it their fault, that should be dealt with by the appropriate channels if experienced.

And you took the statement from 'LowLevel' right out of context.

 

[theironroad]

I've seen plenty of occasions where passengers who have required assistance have arrived but haven't informed the TOC about it and have had to wait and miss their planned trains because the station has been busy, unfortunate but with some stations staffing this is the reality.

Tocs should, if they don't already, monitor the numbers needing assistance. Collect the data, crunch the data. This will give a good guide as the data grows of when staffing levels need to be increased, then the tocs need to get the staff and put the staff on the frontline, so that 1 member of staff is not being left to deal with multiple assistance cases at once.

I'm fortunate in not needing assistance to access stations and travel on trains, so if I wake up in the morning and on the spur of the moment think I'll jump on a train to the seaside for a day, I don't need to book it 48 hours in advance just to suit a train company that wants to eliminate staff from the railways or cut staffing levels to the bone in order to praise the gods of 'efficiency' and 'productivity' as defined by bean counters trying to boost profits and dividend payments to shareholders.

We shouldn't have to say that's the reality, that's the status quo, we can't change it.

It can be changed.

 

[SPADTrap]

Tocs should, if they don't already, monitor the numbers needing assistance. Collect the data, crunch the data. This will give a good guide as the data grows of when staffing levels need to be increased, then the tocs need to get the staff and put the staff on the frontline, so that 1 member of staff is not being left to deal with multiple assistance cases at once.

I'm fortunate in not needing assistance to access stations and travel on trains, so if I wake up in the morning and on the spur of the moment think I'll jump on a train to the seaside for a day, I don't need to book it 48 hours in advance just to suit a train company that wants to eliminate staff from the railways or cut staffing levels to the bone in order to praise the gods of 'efficiency' and 'productivity' as defined by bean counters trying to boost profits and dividend payments to shareholders.

We shouldn't have to say that's the reality, that's the status quo, we can't change it.

It can be changed.

How can you collect and crunch data on people who 'wake up in the morning and on the spur of the moment think I'll jump on a train to the seaside for a day?' Would that be reliable?

The way one member of staff dealing with multiple assistances is avoided is by those who require it informing the TOC in advance so the TOC can do their bit of getting the right number of staff in place to ensure that person is not missed or forgotten, this is not limited to railway travel and is more about ensuring that person gets what they need to make their journey as swift and unhindered as possible not about them having some kind of different rights to travellers who don't need assistance.

Out of interest what is your experience in providing passenger assistance?