W Driver Only Operated Trains (DOO) discussion

[Greenback]

As I tried to explain, having the support of the public can make a difference to the attitude of both sides in any dispute. It can have the effect of cutting a dispute shorter than it may otherwise be, no matter the resolution or who is seen as being victorious.

This is why the printed media tries its best to influence its readers.

 

[455driver]

The RMT need to change the way they put out press releases making them more 'everyday' style instead of their usual style, the also need to explain clearly what the difference is between a fully trained guard and a ticket examiner so the public can make an informed decision on what they would prefer, the travelling publics opinion matters a lot and they need to be kept fully informed about thing's now more than ever.

This issue is far too important to keep the public out of it or even worse just being informed by one side with their very 'woolly' press statements!

 

[BestWestern]

It is a wider issue with Trade Unions, they should be investing in PR and Press Officers in my opinion which I think would assist with communication with the public in times of disputes.

Cash was woeful when interviewed last time on TV about this.

I concur absolutely; couldn't agree more.

 

[NX]

I raised this very question with RMT Full Time officers, their response.....

"The RMT has been perfectly fine for over 100 years without the media and PR companies we (I) see no need to change that"

Needless to say as a fully paid up member I don't agree!

NX.

 

[SkinnyDave]

I raised this very question with RMT Full Time officers, their response.....

"The RMT has been perfectly fine for over 100 years without the media and PR companies we (I) see no need to change that"

Needless to say as a fully paid up member I don't agree!

NX.

Infuriating
That is why they can be easily labelled Dinosaurs because they wait for a minute....are!
And that attitude is why they keep getting put on Backfoot so easily.

 

[A-driver]

Infuriating
That is why they can be easily labelled Dinosaurs because they wait for a minute....are!
And that attitude is why they keep getting put on Blackfoot so easily.

I agree unions need to do a lot more to get their point across in the media-especially as the majority of popular media is against them due to Murdoch or other right wing influences and that society has been easily persuaded to resent anyone who has an ounce of working conditions left rather than try to better their own work life. I also don't agree with the statement that they have been fine for 100years so don't need it now.

I'm also not an RMT member and whilst in principle I agree with most things they do, I often take issue with how they go about doing things and how they come across.

But...they are still one of the most successful unions and continue getting a very fair deal for their members. Infact, I can't think of many disputes which they have come out of worse off than the company. Therefore I sort of agree that they perhaps don't need to worry too much about PR. At the end of the day, they will never really get any sympathy from the public when they close down mass transport networks through industrial action. People are far too wrapped up in their own lives to care about the reasons these 'selfish train drivers' are 'once again' holding 'the public to ransom' through 'greed' and 'laziness'. I don't think any amount of PR will change those attitudes and to an extent, why should it? Commuters see staff as selfish for striking as protecting their livelihoods is inconveniencing them. I'd say it's equally selfish to expect those rail workers to just sit quietly and allow their employer to hack away at their working conditions just so it dosnt make their journey to work harder!

Sympathy isn't what they are after and to an extent actually isn't needed. The fact that they havnt had any public support for the past 10years or so kind of proves that.

 

[plymothian]

Perfect "publicity" for FGW's plans yesterday.

 

[Greenback]

I'm very disappointed with that attitude of the RMT's full time officers if they truly believe that everything is fine on the media and communication front. They need to wake up and realise how much the world has changed since 1915...

 

[SkinnyDave]

I agree unions need to do a lot more to get their point across in the media-especially as the majority of popular media is against them due to Murdoch or other right wing influences and that society has been easily persuaded to resent anyone who has an ounce of working conditions left rather than try to better their own work life. I also don't agree with the statement that they have been fine for 100years so don't need it now.

I'm also not an RMT member and whilst in principle I agree with most things they do, I often take issue with how they go about doing things and how they come across.

But...they are still one of the most successful unions and continue getting a very fair deal for their members. Infact, I can't think of many disputes which they have come out of worse off than the company. Therefore I sort of agree that they perhaps don't need to worry too much about PR. At the end of the day, they will never really get any sympathy from the public when they close down mass transport networks through industrial action. People are far too wrapped up in their own lives to care about the reasons these 'selfish train drivers' are 'once again' holding 'the public to ransom' through 'greed' and 'laziness'. I don't think any amount of PR will change those attitudes and to an extent, why should it? Commuters see staff as selfish for striking as protecting their livelihoods is inconveniencing them. I'd say it's equally selfish to expect those rail workers to just sit quietly and allow their employer to hack away at their working conditions just so it dosnt make their journey to work harder!

Sympathy isn't what they are after and to an extent actually isn't needed. The fact that they havnt had any public support for the past 10years or so kind of proves that.

Very good post A-Driver, but TheTories are now hell bent on changing Union Laws which will not be in our favour and this is where I feel the battle will be lost when the political establishment with their Press pals demonise Unions and they wont be easily swatted off.
Facebook, Twitter, Forums and even Linkedin should be utilised more but they are mostly used as a platform by staff to moan.
Needs a rethink (not just railway unions btw)
New strategy new methods of industrial relations needs to be looked at.

 

[Robertj21a]

Infuriating
That is why they can be easily labelled Dinosaurs because they wait for a minute....are!
And that attitude is why they keep getting put on Backfoot so easily.

Sorry to say that my view on the current-day Unions is that some are little better than 'Aggressive Dimwit Dinosaurs' - who would much prefer their old lives, under Scargill etc.
Their calls for strikes, industrial action etc now seem to be ever-more frequent and will simply reinforce what most of the general public think of the more aggressive unions.

 

[313103]

Sorry to say that my view on the current-day Unions is that some are little better than 'Aggressive Dimwit Dinosaurs' - who would much prefer their old lives, under Scargill etc.
Their calls for strikes, industrial action etc now seem to be ever-more frequent and will simply reinforce what most of the general public think of the more aggressive unions.

Well of course that is your opinion and your entitled to it. Of course the latest report from the office of National Statistics says otherwise. But why let facts get in the way of a good old fashioned union bash.

 

[ainsworth74]

But surely that's exactly the problem! The statistics clearly show that days of work lost to industrial action are at their lowest ever but the popular perception is that strike action is endemic and that Unions and their members are out of touch dinosaurs hankering back to the 1970s glory days of Trade Unionism. As far as I can tell that is all tosh but the Unions don't seem to be doing a good job of counteracting that viewpoint.

So by all means dismiss posts, comments and people who make such points but I fear that by doing so it'll only hurt the Unions and their members in the long run.

 

[313103]

But surely that's exactly the problem! The statistics clearly show that days of work lost to industrial action are at their lowest ever but the popular perception is that strike action is endemic and that Unions and their members are out of touch dinosaurs hankering back to the 1970s glory days of Trade Unionism. As far as I can tell that is all tosh but the Unions don't seem to be doing a good job of counteracting that viewpoint.

So by all means dismiss posts, comments and people who make such points but I fear that by doing so it'll only hurt the Unions and their members in the long run.

Even if we had no days lost to industrial action people would still assume otherwise because they take to heart what is in the printed press who lets face it they have never been a friend of the trade union movement, more so in todays modern society who are very quick to criticise but slow to praise with the use of social media and of course the comments section of those newspapers. I read one on a social website where he said to drive a tube train you press two buttons, says it all really.

To be honest I don't mean to write in such a way that gives the impression that I am dismissing previous comments, but my previous experience of said poster is one who doesn't like trade unions in particular railway trade unions.

 

[Carlisle]

But surely that's exactly the problem! The statistics clearly show that days of work lost to industrial action are at their lowest ever but the popular perception is that strike action is endemic and that Unions and their members are out of touch dinosaurs hankering back to the 1970s glory days of Trade Unionism. As far as I can tell that is all tosh but the Unions don't seem to be doing a good job of counteracting that viewpoint.

So by all means dismiss posts, comments and people who make such points but I fear that by doing so it'll only hurt the Unions and their members in the long run.

A phone in on LBC radio last Wednesday evening debated the tube strike. In addition to the predicable arguments of both sides ,It did highlight the simple realiity that unlike the 1970s, the most effective Union power today is for a number of reasons concentrated within a fairly small group of professions and their respective unions, which explains why the more right wing press target the likes of RMT far more than they might have done in the past

 

[Robertj21a]

Even if we had no days lost to industrial action people would still assume otherwise because they take to heart what is in the printed press who lets face it they have never been a friend of the trade union movement, more so in todays modern society who are very quick to criticise but slow to praise with the use of social media and of course the comments section of those newspapers. I read one on a social website where he said to drive a tube train you press two buttons, says it all really.

To be honest I don't mean to write in such a way that gives the impression that I am dismissing previous comments, but my previous experience of said poster is one who doesn't like trade unions in particular railway trade unions.

Thank you. As you mentioned, I dislike *certain* trade unions - not all, many do an excellent job for their members.

The fact that you so quickly dismiss my personal views on the subject only tends to reinforce the views of the general public about union members and Dinosaurs.

As highlighted by 'ainsworth 74', it's the perception that needs to be addressed.

 

[craigybagel]

This is why I wonder if there might be a case for the RMT's attitude towards public perception. It's almost impossible to get public support, so you could ask, why bother? To many passengers, you could tell them that FGW directors plan on buying kittens from animal shelters to eat for breakfast with the money saved by going DOO, and they'd still come out against the unions if a strike puts them 5 minutes late on their commute home. And this issue isn't a public vote - the public aren't going to phone in and decide whether DOO goes ahead - it will be decided eventually through whatever compromise FGW and the unions can thrash out.

Unions aren't there to be liked, they're there to get the best possible deal for its members. As a guard I'd love for the public to know the truth about my job, and like my colleagues above i've had some interesting times opening their eyes as to the true nature of the job. But as an RMT member i'd only like to see my union going down that route so long as it doesn't distract from their main purpose - protecting the profession.

 

[LateThanNever]

This is why I wonder if there might be a case for the RMT's attitude towards public perception. It's almost impossible to get public support, so you could ask, why bother? To many passengers, you could tell them that FGW directors plan on buying kittens from animal shelters to eat for breakfast with the money saved by going DOO, and they'd still come out against the unions if a strike puts them 5 minutes late on their commute home. And this issue isn't a public vote - the public aren't going to phone in and decide whether DOO goes ahead - it will be decided eventually through whatever compromise FGW and the unions can thrash out.

Unions aren't there to be liked, they're there to get the best possible deal for its members. As a guard I'd love for the public to know the truth about my job, and like my colleagues above i've had some interesting times opening their eyes as to the true nature of the job. But as an RMT member i'd only like to see my union going down that route so long as it doesn't distract from their main purpose - protecting the profession.

Unfortunately protecting your profession is not something for which RMT have had conspicuous success in the past. Indeed has the word profession ever passed the RMT's lips? There are, currently, more things in heaven and earth than are dreampt of in their philosophy (to paraphrase Hamlet). They really need to think much more radically if they are to succeed.

 

[FordFocus]

Sorry to say that my view on the current-day Unions is that some are little better than 'Aggressive Dimwit Dinosaurs' - who would much prefer their old lives, under Scargill etc.
Their calls for strikes, industrial action etc now seem to be ever-more frequent and will simply reinforce what most of the general public think of the more aggressive unions.

What a load of nonsense that sounds like it's come from the right wing columnist section of the Daily Mail or The Sun :roll:

Strike action in recent times is at it's lowest for decades. It's only because one city has come to a grinding halt because of it's management incompetence on how to manage staff and to try and bully their ill thought out plans through that people believe we are going back to the 1980s.

I won't go into massive opinions about this as it's for another thread but there are things that trade unions have learnt and changed a lot from the 1980s, especially with regard to how the democratic vote works now. Cash, Whelan, Cortes, McCluskey cannot just call the troops out for no reason, they must explain the reasons for a ballot carefully with facts on why strike action is been called. The people who are losing wages do think carefully as they aren't in a decade where people have disposable income to lose weeks worth of wages at a time.

 

[Carlisle]

Unfortunately protecting your profession is not something for which RMT have had conspicuous success in the past..

I would disagree with that, considering in the final year or so of BR most staff I worked alongside thought DOO would be pretty much everywhere once CSR was extended and the remaining slam door stock was replaced by the incoming TOCs ,its probably mainly due to the RMTs opposition this hasn't happened

 

[Dave1987]

Ive noticed that the man trying to force through these changes is a certain Mr Ben Rule. Says it all really. Never heard anyone have a nice thing to say about the bloke.

 

[HH]

Ive noticed that the man trying to force through these changes is a certain Mr Ben Rule. Says it all really. Never heard anyone have a nice thing to say about the bloke.

Where was he before FGW?

 

[Dave1987]

Where was he before FGW?

Ive heard his name several times on GEML, usually accompanied with a couple of expletives.

 

[FordFocus]

https://uk.linkedin.com/pub/benjamin-rule/61/5b9/872

 

[Robertj21a]

What a load of nonsense that sounds like it's come from the right wing columnist section of the Daily Mail or The Sun :roll:

Strike action in recent times is at it's lowest for decades. It's only because one city has come to a grinding halt because of it's management incompetence on how to manage staff and to try and bully their ill thought out plans through that people believe we are going back to the 1980s.

I won't go into massive opinions about this as it's for another thread but there are things that trade unions have learnt and changed a lot from the 1980s, especially with regard to how the democratic vote works now. Cash, Whelan, Cortes, McCluskey cannot just call the troops out for no reason, they must explain the reasons for a ballot carefully with facts on why strike action is been called. The people who are losing wages do think carefully as they aren't in a decade where people have disposable income to lose weeks worth of wages at a time.

Perhaps you should have read the earlier post referring to perception.

 

[LateThanNever]

I would disagree with that, considering in the final year or so of BR most staff I worked alongside thought DOO would be pretty much everywhere once CSR was extended and the remaining slam door stock was replaced by the incoming TOCs ,its probably mainly due to the RMTs opposition this hasn't happened

I think that was probably as a result of all commuting being via a single union and a single co (BR) - it ain't now! And that's why the Tories wanted to privatise - and why I wan't to suggest another route - as it were...
--- old post above --- --- new post below ---

I think that was probably as a result of all commuting being via a single union and a single co (BR) - it ain't now! And that's why the Tories wanted to privatise - and why I wan't to suggest another route - as it were...

Now guards need to be qualified as such generally as a profession and present themselves as such - with, I suggest, route qualifications for the opreator on top. Then they will really be in business. Otherwise it's on the catering trolley, RPI, or not at all!

 

[bnm]

Thank you. As you mentioned, I dislike *certain* trade unions - not all, many do an excellent job for their members.

The fact that you so quickly dismiss my personal views on the subject only tends to reinforce the views of the general public about union members and Dinosaurs.

As highlighted by 'ainsworth 74', it's the perception that needs to be addressed.

Herein lies the problem with debating on this thread. You disagree with the RMT over THIS current action on FGW and you are called "anti-union", "anti-railway", "right wing", and occasionally worse before the moderators step in. All that has happened to me so I took a break from this thread, fed up with explaining myself and my reasons for being against THIS action.

I remain a union member, Labour Party member, Guardian reader, and supporter of Trades Unions generally. I remain opposed to THIS current action by the RMT on FGW.

 

[Sleepy]

FGW reportedly had put Ben Rule on gardening leave ?

 

[313103]

Herein lies the problem with debating on this thread. You disagree with the RMT over THIS current action on FGW and you are called "anti-union", "anti-railway", "right wing", and occasionally worse before the moderators step in. All that has happened to me so I took a break from this thread, fed up with explaining myself and my reasons for being against THIS action.

I remain a union member, Labour Party member, Guardian reader, and supporter of Trades Unions generally. I remain opposed to THIS current action by the RMT on FGW.

I understand your position on this and in context Robert was replying to my comment.

Whilst you remain against this action what do you expect the RMT to do?

Say nothing and let FGW run the trains DOO? withdraw the buffet services? dispense with dispatchers? dispense with all the current FGW maintenance teams? and it doesn't end there because once these ieps come into service my role as a dispatcher will be withdrawn and I don't even have a say on this as I work for another company.

First group have been very economical with the truth in this dispute as have LUL in there dispute. Having gone through relocation on one occasion and redundancy on another both as a result of DOO, I know what its like to hear the lies and bull crap from companies and the promises they make always fail to materialise. So you can understand why the union doesn't believe a word of what FGW are saying.

At the end of the day the only thing we know for definite is that many people will be left either unemployed, on worse terms, on less pay despite what FGW say.

ASLEF will allow DOO to go ahead especially as FGW sent there reps to Japan to see these trains so as the saying goes 'There is no such thing as a free lunch'.

 

[Turbodriver]

ASLEF will allow DOO to go ahead especially as FGW sent there reps to Japan to see these trains so as the saying goes 'There is no such thing as a free lunch'.

Not likely. HSS driver contracts specifically state they will not operate driver only services except ECS/light loco. To remove this would be a big negotiation which would probably need to be voted on and a lot of drivers don't seem interested in changing it as it may mean working locals in the longer term which they don't want.

Certainly hope they stick behind their morals and not be tempted by money.

Hopwood and Rule are destroying the company.

 

[SpacePhoenix]

dispense with all the current FGW maintenance teams?

That will happen and there's nothing the unions can do about that as all new stock introduced over the last 10 years is maintained by the manufacturer