Caledonian Sleeper discussion

[Topgun333]

Would an 88 have enough grunt to haul and power the Caledonian?

 

[sprinterguy]

Would an 88 have enough grunt to haul and power the Caledonian?

If their train supply rating is the same as for a class 68, then on electric power, yes, definitely (though I'm not sure if their train supply index would be high enough for the upcoming new sleeper stock?).

 

[Aictos]

I'm all for finger pointing, but please point it in the right direction - Scotrail didn't set up the tendering process, nor did they pick the winner.

Indeed if anything it was the responsibility of Transport Scotland.

 

[CosherB]

Indeed if anything it was the responsibility of Transport Scotland.

I stand corrected, you are right ...... I must try harder!

 

[GM228]

Is there any reason why the 86s can't/don't stand in the odd time like the 87?

 

[Iskra]

Just arrived in Inverness, and there are two 67's on the sleeper, is that normal?

 

[Bungle965]

Is there any reason why the 86s can't/don't stand in the odd time like the 87?

ETH not good enough to heat the hotel on wheels so it is not used unless it is a emergency.
Sam
--- old post above --- --- new post below ---

Just arrived in Inverness, and there are two 67's on the sleeper, is that normal?

No not normally I don't think.
Sam

 

[Highland37]

Normally it's only one 67 from Inverness south and coming north.

Imagine what reliability would have been like had the 47s been used after all.....

 

[GM228]

Dosn't a 67 have a lower ETS index than an 86 but yet one powered the full rake on the recent trip with the 66.

 

[507 001]

Dosn't a 67 have a lower ETS index than an 86 but yet one powered the full rake on the recent trip with the 66.

Probably because it wasn't doing anything else?

 

[Bungle965]

Probably because it wasn't doing anything else?

The 66 was doing all the of the work, the 67 was only heating the hotel on wheels.
Sam

 

[GM228]

Probably because it wasn't doing anything else?

But isn't the ETS max output designed to be the max weather powering or not?

 

[Mag_seven]

1S26 cancelled at Carlisle this morning - more class 92 problems apparently.

 

[Johnuk123]

Would it be correct to say that the new franchise isn't going too well.

 

[wensley]

1S26 cancelled at Carlisle this morning - more class 92 problems apparently.

A problem with the convertors on 92023 apparently.
Train rescued by the loco at Castairs.

 

[507 001]

The 66 was doing all the of the work, the 67 was only heating the hotel on wheels.
Sam

Which is exactly what I said.....

But isn't the ETS max output designed to be the max weather powering or not?

Officially I believe that is the case. I imagine you might be able to squeeze a bit more out though if the engine isn't doing anything else?

 

[RichmondCommu]

Well, I wouldn't go that far. They're not a patch on the haulage capabilities or technological advancement of a class 60 from ten years previously, for example. As others have pointed out, it would have required both 66s taking power to shift the HOBC.

However they do appear to be very reliable machines and by all accounts very easy to maintain. Perhaps the class 60 was too technologically advanced for its own good when all that was needed was a simple but cheap to maintain loco design?

 

[GM228]

Which is exactly what I said.....




Officially I believe that is the case. I imagine you might be able to squeeze a bit more out though if the engine isn't doing anything else?

Surely a 67 (idling should still give same ETS output as powering) with an ETS of about 66 (330kw) shows an 86 with an ETS of about 74 (390kw) will be able to power the set?

In other words the 67 should be only producing about 330kw of power weather under power or not, even if the 67 through out a little more when idling and the 86 through out a little less under power then the outputs should still be similar?

 

[Domh245]

Surely a 67 (idling should still give same ETS output as powering) with an ETS of about 66 (330kw) shows an 86 with an ETS of about 74 (390kw) will be able to power the set?

In other words the 67 should be only producing about 330kw of power weather under power or not, even if the 67 through out a little more when idling and the 86 through out a little less under power then the outputs should still be similar?

But then again, the 67s only haul the short rakes once split at Edinburgh. The 86s by comparison would have to haul 2 or 3 of these short rakes as a long train along the WCML.

 

[87015]

The can is allocated to 1M11 at present after last nights farce.

 

[GM228]

But then again, the 67s only haul the short rakes once split at Edinburgh. The 86s by comparison would have to haul 2 or 3 of these short rakes as a long train along the WCML.

That's correct, but the point I made is in comparison to the 67 which recently supplied ETS to the full set!

 

[causton]

The can is allocated to 1M11 at present after last nights farce.

What was the problem?!? Seen it was caped at Carlisle but why?

 

[crewmeal]

There's a youtube clip of 67017 with the 16 coach sleeper running down the Chiltern line back in Feb 2012. OK it was empty and probably didn't require train heating but at least it was moving!

 

[modernrail]

I had the pleasure of a three hour late arrival into Inverness on the sleeper just over a month ago. We were running very late already and then got stuck behind a broken down freight train about an hour and a bit out of Inverness.

On the way back they had overbooked the bikes because half the bike space was full of live lobsters, and so three of us as to dismantle our bikes and store them in the disabled sleeper cabin.

Three regular users took great pleasure in complaining about the food before they had eaten it. I personally thought it was pretty good.

I travelled on a German sleeper in the spring and it was far superior. However, the Scottish sleeper can make up for the rolling stock (providing the traction works) if the service is good enough. In general Serco seem to be pretty bad at matching supply with demand. Staff on the platforms are not set up properly to meet and greet. Food is not stocked to meet demand from people who want to eat the food (the new food itself is pretty good). Bike spaces are occupied by lobsters. It just creates a sense that the whole thing is amateur.

The staff really need to be supported by Serco and given the tools to provide good service. The ideal scenario is low staff turnover with happy staff who know their customers, as it will entice people back on to the service time and time again. I fear the existing staff will get frustrated and leave, especially when taking incoming from very delayed passengers, and then it will be temporary agency staff and then it will really fall apart.

 

[causton]

I travelled on a German sleeper in the spring and it was far superior. However, the Scottish sleeper can make up for the rolling stock (providing the traction works) if the service is good enough. In general Serco seem to be pretty bad at matching supply with demand. Staff on the platforms are not set up properly to meet and greet. Food is not stocked to meet demand from people who want to eat the food (the new food itself is pretty good). Bike spaces are occupied by lobsters. It just creates a sense that the whole thing is amateur.

Those lobsters are a regular thing that has been happening for years. What is disappointing is that Serco somehow forgot about them it seems if they booked too many bikes!

I also found that, twice I have had to go hunting for a host rather than them waiting welcoming you outside the train. One time the train was announced as ready and one of the hosts went "Oh god they're coming on already, we're not ready!" and people were going into their berths before being introduced properly which really annoyed the host in my carriage!

 

[sprinterguy]

Surely a 67 (idling should still give same ETS output as powering) with an ETS of about 66 (330kw) shows an 86 with an ETS of about 74 (390kw) will be able to power the set?

The train supply rating for the full 16 coach Caledonian Sleeper should be right up towards the maximum rating of a class 87 or 90 loco, of 95, though, which is seriously in excess of what a class 67 (or 86) should be capable of providing.

I assume that these figures provide for maximum power draw from each carriage, but even so I'm not quite sure how Serco are getting away with their train supply requirements in situations like these; in just the same way as when they provided a no heat 37 for the diesel hauled leg of Fort William sleeper.

 

[CosherB]

There's a youtube clip of 67017 with the 16 coach sleeper running down the Chiltern line back in Feb 2012. OK it was empty and probably didn't require train heating but at least it was moving!

Hardly representative of what is actually required to operate the service. As for "at least it was moving" .....! :roll:

 

[Emblematic]

The train supply rating for the full 16 coach Caledonian Sleeper should be right up towards the maximum rating of a class 87 or 90 loco, of 95, though, which is seriously in excess of what a class 67 (or 86) should be capable of providing.

I assume that these figures provide for maximum power draw from each carriage, but even so I'm not quite sure how Serco are getting away with their train supply requirements in situations like these; in just the same way as when they provided a no heat 37 for the diesel hauled leg of Fort William sleeper.

I stand to be corrected, but the safety-related equipment in the sleepers all runs off the 28VDC bus or the 110VAC inverter, which can both run for around four hours from the battery supply. That would just about get you to the Fort with a non-ETS loco, no heat or aircon obviously. It's likely that most or all of the 415VAC breakers were tripped out for the 67 to haul the full set, so the MA is just keeping the lights and fire detection operating and the batteries topped up,without much load to risk tripping the ETS.
Passable around this time of year, hopeless in winter though.

 

[GM228]

After the debate about the 86 would I be correct that 86101 hauled the sleeper last night with the full set?

 

[gimmea50anyday]

Hardly representative of what is actually required to operate the service. As for "at least it was moving" .....! :roll:

Yeah,,the 67's being geared for 125 dont exactly have much grunt. When acting as an ecml thunderbird the loco is effectively half the power of a 91, even less when providing ETS so on a 225 drag they often have to rev their tits off and still struggle to keep up with a delorean on a time travel trip!

Realistically a 67 isnt up to a load over 6, but given they were built for light weight TPO work they didnt need anything stronger. Regearing to a more reasonable 95mph instead of the never-attainable 125 would make a big difference imho, after all, they needed 2 power cars to get a hst to 125 which themselves struggle with a load 9, so how on earth do they expect a single 67 to do it, esp with no compatible speed stock?