"Shocking increase in passengers being attacked on Britain's trains"

[HH]

If there actually is an increase.

 

[misterredmist]

The feeling I get reading the above posts is that, it is a reflection of our society in general and, particularly in inner City areas, our attitude to traveling on the railway late at night merits the same common sense approach as to whether you would walk around certain streets or suburbs, alone, and particularly subways & bridges.

Very sad to read that some people on here have been victims to these scum, the crux of the matter is that the perpetrators get little to no decent punishment if caught.

I can also understand that when staff have been in the vicinity of some of these unfolding events, their reluctance to intervene will probably be based upon many considerations, not least of which I assume is there'd be a fair chance of being a victim themselves....

when all is said an done, it's every man for himself , keep your wits about you !

 

[FordFocus]

Whether it's 1 person or 100 more persons a day getting assaulted, it's too many.

 

[CaptainHaddock]

Whether it's 1 person or 100 more persons a day getting assaulted, it's too many.

True but is there any possible way the figure could be reduced to 0 persons per day? Here in the real world you have to accept that in a country of 60 million people it's inevitable that there will be assaults but the likelihood of being assaulted on the rail network is still extremely low.

 

[sarahj]

Could be worse, I was reading in Todays Railways of a conductor in Italy who was dealing with some no fare payers, when one pulled out a machete and chopped his arm off. (re-attached after 9 hours surgery). Somehow puts being told to 'f*@k off' into perspective.

 

[TDK]

Huh?

You said "If for instance there are more assaults on trains where there is DOO then yes it is down to the lack of a guard on the trains that is the root cause to the increase."

I'm questioning your conclusion that if there's been an increase of assaults on DOO trains, the lack of a guard is the root cause of that increase.

It's a logical statement as where I did mention without any statistics the information is useless. However logically speaking if there are more assaults percentage wise on DOO services vice services with a guard this has to have a pretty heavy weight when carrying out a risk assessment on passengers being assaulted on trains and the only difference is the non presence of a guard.

 

[asylumxl]

If there actually is an increase.

Increase in what?

If you mean violence on the railways, there has been even after normalising for increased journey numbers. The Railway Safety and Standards Board annual report seems a pretty reputable source of information to me.

If not that, then disregard my reply.

 

[Xenophon PCDGS]

At the risk of returning to this thread and being accused of committing all types of iniquities, all I now ask is the simple question....
"Does anyone think that one of comments that was reported in the very first posting on this thread was far too simplistic in its reasoning and that there are many other reasons for the matter that is the reason for this thread"

If this posting still offends in its wording, then my cognitive thinking ability seems to have reached the end of its useful life, with rest of me a close second...:roll:

 

[Bodiddly]

At the risk of returning to this thread and being accused of committing all types of iniquities, all I now ask is the simple question....
"Does anyone think that one of comments that was reported in the very first posting on this thread was far too simplistic in its reasoning and that there are many other reasons for the matter that is the reason for this thread"

If this posting still offends in its wording, then my cognitive thinking ability seems to have reached the end of its useful life, with rest of me a close second...:roll:

I hope you don't really feel that you have offended anyone Paul. You have as much right to express your opinion on this forum as anyone else has. I am a Union man and I will not always agree with someone who is obviously against unions, but I will always respect your opinion on the matter, free speech is a basic human right that the union will always champion.
From a union perspective, the culling of on train staff is fuelling the opportunity for people to become violent and anti-social with no real fear of penalty or even detection. What we have is a perfect storm brewing of offending without consequence. As you downgrade the role of the guard to that of a revenue inspector, you are stripping the safety responsibilities the on train member of staff has. That's also not to mention the fact that there will not always be a member of on train staff on the train apart from the driver. I may be wrong but does DOO not actually require a second member of staff to be on the train? This really sends out all the wrong signals to potential offenders and in no way calms the anxieties of the ordinary member of the public going about his/her personal business.
And all to save a few quid.

 

[455driver]

Let's not turn this into a Driver Only Operation (DOO) debate; there is much more chance of seeing staff patrolling a DOO train in Strathclyde than there is seeing staff on a late evening TPE service from Manchester Piccadilly or Leeds (the Guard is usually in the back cab on the evening trains I use), in my experience, so it's not quite true to say that a particular method of operation means that there will be less incidents.

I personally would like to see more staff patrolling trains, especially in the evenings. I believe a visible staff presence is a good deterrent, though that doesn't guarantee all incidents can be prevented of course.

Lets not turn this into a guards hiding in the back cab thread either!
--- old post above --- --- new post below ---

Paul - why does it matter what the union say? They don't offer the staff training the employer does that and sets the policy. But you must know that.........

Because the Unions will be fighting for the staff to retain their job when some scrote squares up to the staff and they respond appropriately, but the company view it as inappropriate for the staff to protect themselves ands ack the staff!

 

[yorkie]

I suppose its one of them things isn't it, until it happens to you or your family or someone you know..

So what do you suggest is done about it?

As CaptainHaddock says we can't reduce it to 0, and as misterredmist says, the scum can't be punished sufficiently to prevent them re-offending.

I know of chavs who have assaulted, taunted and bullied many victims and continue to do so with impunity and yet they are free to carry on re-offending, they cannot be publicly named and the safety of those chavs is taken more seriously than any protections given to you or me. And I'm also sure the York chavs I'm thinking of are nowhere near as bad or numerous as in places like Greater Manchester.

 

[meridian2]

I know of chavs who have assaulted, taunted and bullied many victims and continue to do so with impunity and yet they are free to carry on re-offending, they cannot be publicly named and the safety of those chavs is taken more seriously than any protections given to you or me. And I'm also sure the York chavs I'm thinking of are nowhere near as bad or numerous as in places like Greater Manchester.

That's because we live in an age where the rights of the victims are no longer paramount, simply because the 'scum''s 'human rights' come first.
This is the double-edged part of the sword that is the Human Rights Act: it's constant misuse by the higher echelons of the law to protect the rights of anybody.
It is extremely depressing but that's the consequence of a liberal society: the freedom to do what you want, when you want and by whom, but that's another subject entirely.

 

[crehld]

Very sad to read that some people on here have been victims to these scum, the crux of the matter is that the perpetrators get little to no decent punishment if caught.

So what do you suggest is done about it?

As CaptainHaddock says we can't reduce it to 0, and as misterredmist says, the scum can't be punished sufficiently to prevent them re-offending.

I know of chavs who have assaulted, taunted and bullied many victims and continue to do so with impunity and yet they are free to carry on re-offending, they cannot be publicly named and the safety of those chavs is taken more seriously than any protections given to you or me. And I'm also sure the York chavs I'm thinking of are nowhere near as bad or numerous as in places like Greater Manchester.

For the purpose of balance I should point out that those who attacked me were tracked down within 24 hours and following the trial received lengthy custodial sentences.

For me the presence of chavs et al or the risk of being a victim of crime is no different whether on or off a train. And the presence of staff will do very little to dissuade the few who are determined to cause havoc.

 

[josh-j]

I know that just having staff on the train will not prevent all on-train crime, but having visible staff is surely going to have a positive effect compared to not having visible staff.
When there is no visible staff member around, the "ownership" of the train interior can pass over to the troublemakers because there is no authority around to challenge them.

I don't mean that to sound like I'm saying "get guards out of their back cabs" though because guards are not the police and are on their own. Maybe certain trains need bouncers...

On the other hand I feel this is as much to do with social problems in general as it is to do with changes on the railway.

 

[HH]

Increase in what?

If you mean violence on the railways, there has been even after normalising for increased journey numbers. The Railway Safety and Standards Board annual report seems a pretty reputable source of information to me.

If not that, then disregard my reply.

You obviously didn't read my earlier response then.

There's been an increase in the number of recorded incidents. Even a little application of logic should show that is not the same thing as the lazy headline.

Having seen various incident measures at TOCs over many years, most categories of incidents fluctuate considerably year by year and are rarely indicative of any underlying change.

--- old post above --- --- new post below ---

Maybe certain trains need bouncers...

I think that many night trains need security staff. Their presence wouldn't be just to deter the scrotes, but also to reassure the law-abiding, fare-paying passengers, especially the ladies. I believe it would also lead to increased patronage.

 

[misterredmist]

So what do you suggest is done about it?

As CaptainHaddock says we can't reduce it to 0, and as misterredmist says, the scum can't be punished sufficiently to prevent them re-offending.

I know of chavs who have assaulted, taunted and bullied many victims and continue to do so with impunity and yet they are free to carry on re-offending, they cannot be publicly named and the safety of those chavs is taken more seriously than any protections given to you or me. And I'm also sure the York chavs I'm thinking of are nowhere near as bad or numerous as in places like Greater Manchester.

Indeed "Yorkie" , that covers all bases as to how bad the current situation is in not being able to deal with serial offenders and one can only assume the situation will get worse...........