Greater Anglia Good and Bad Discussion

[HH]

If anyone wanted to change things on GEML the very first thing they should have done was respond to the DfT's consultation that started last year.

They could also have joined a Rail User Group, Railfuture has a list, or attended Transport Focus meetings.

It's far easier just to have a moan on Twitter though, isn't it?

 

[nidave]

I dont post often on the forum - dont work in the industry (I work in Software) but have an interest and have learnt a lot.

I love this thread as is fantastically funny and matches my experiences with customers (seems to happen in all industries) - you can tell them the truth and explain it in a lot of detail but if they don't want to hear it you may as well be talking into a bucket of cement. It makes dealing with the public genuinely fun if a but frustrating at times.

 

[jon0844]

Clearly you are not open to discussion (none of the people on here) so you are only interested in your own views. SOme points you have made are valid but if you wont discuss then whats the point.

We engage through different means and its not a personal vendetta against AGA as you keep going on about. If its Network Rail we go at them also.

You have the cheek to call us 12 year olds but your writing like a 4 year old and thats why you can not grow up and have a proper debate.

And i was merely highlighting that your cronie was on about riding men to London. Im not interested in that as clearly has sod all to do with trains.

Engage through different means? What does that mean? You mean a network of aliases all supporting flawed arguments to make the cause look more powerful? If that worked, you'd have had results by now.

Might be time to change tactics.

And evidence of you calling out NR please? I don't see the evidence of that on Twitter. Of course, if you can point me to all the Tweets or articles on the website that talk about the list of problems over the last couple of weeks (and why NR was all, or partly, responsible) then I'll apologise.

I assume the causes of such major delays couldn't have been missed by mistake? Or maybe you were too busy at the time?

 

[grumblingalong]

Clearly you are not open to discussion (none of the people on here) so you are only interested in your own views. SOme points you have made are valid but if you wont discuss then whats the point.

We engage through different means and its not a personal vendetta against AGA as you keep going on about. If its Network Rail we go at them also.

You have the cheek to call us 12 year olds but your writing like a 4 year old and thats why you can not grow up and have a proper debate.

And i was merely highlighting that your cronie was on about riding men to London. Im not interested in that as clearly has sod all to do with trains.

Jon actually has a basic grip on capitalisation, use of semicolons and many other grammatical devices I've never seen you use. He presents coherent arguments and has far more patience for you than I do. He does not write like a four year old and I commend his efforts to help you over a long time in this thread.

I would happily meet someone like Jon for a good, balanced discussion on the future of our railways.

I would not meet someone like you for the same discussion for point made many many times in here this morning already.

EDIT: did you not get that I was referring to you as one of the "skips" and that a slow running cat was a delayed freight?

 

[jon0844]

If anyone wanted to change things on GEML the very first thing they should have done was respond to the DfT's consultation that started last year.

They could also have joined a Rail User Group, Railfuture has a list, or attended Transport Focus meetings.

It's far easier just to have a moan on Twitter though, isn't it?

This is such a big problem with so many things these days.

I have an interest in local issues too, including transport (buses, as you may have noticed elsewhere!) and I am fully aware that if I need to attend council meetings and get involved with public consultations.

The talk on a forum or Facebook group is one thing - it's a good way to hear about what has happened, but totally useless to action change.

Facebook and Twitter is full of people coming up with solutions to problems, but unless you're talking to the right people, it's meaningless.

I did get involved with consultations on proposed cuts to buses, but I suspect loads of people didn't, and I know that I don't get involved with other issues that I probably should (sometimes I'm busy, sometimes I'm lazy).

Now the cuts are happening, everyone is up in arms but they had their chance to do something.

 

[grumblingalong]

Of course you would because nothing is AGA's fault for you so why am i not suprised.

A lot is AGA's fault. The sending back of various extra stock at the start of the franchise was not a good idea, the delay in refurbishments of the hauled stock and commuter units was not a good idea, many issues would have been saved if these things were prioritised.

The levels of maintenance especially on door issues on 321/315/317 stock was appaling.

There you go, once again the difference between you and the rest of us, balanced truthful opinions.

 

[Max 1986]

A lot is AGA's fault. The sending back of various extra stock at the start of the franchise was not a good idea, the delay in refurbishments of the hauled stock and commuter units was not a good idea, many issues would have been saved if these things were prioritised.

The levels of maintenance especially on door issues on 321/315/317 stock was appaling.

There you go, once again the difference between you and the rest of us, balanced truthful opinions.

My opinion is the 317's need to go they can not survive a refurb for another 15 years service as mentioned on here. They have been so far run into the ground that they are a disgrace. Let alone the timescales that would come with a complete refurb and the cost. Doesnt make sense. Only viable thing is to scrap them and replace them.

 

[Mike_0ne]

I am a regular commuter on AGA.

I often come here to read on developments on the network and try and learn a bit more about the reasons of how and why things happen.
I certainly do not wish for such people as this thread and twitter has shown to be "my" spokesperson for commuters on Abellios network.

I am fairly sure the silent majority would feel the same way after seeing how its devolved into.

There is no debate here, just accusations and argument that is now turning into personal attacks and rants.

I suggest this thread be closed before it goes any further.


I dont think the BBC, NR, DfT nor AGA would even respond to a proper formal request for interview/meeting after seeing such public behaviour here.
Asking to meet people at some location after being so vitriolic? Can't you see why people refuse you that?

Alas, merely posting on this specific site will just qualify my post as 'trainspotter propaganda'

 

[TheEdge]

My opinion is the 317's need to go they can not survive a refurb for another 15 years service as mentioned on here. They have been so far run into the ground that they are a disgrace. Let alone the timescales that would come with a complete refurb and the cost. Doesnt make sense. Only viable thing is to scrap them and replace them.

Its so easy isn't it.

No, it isn't. Thats a fleet of 45 units, you can't just scrap them and have a new fleet ready. Lets look outside the AGA bubble quickly. We can safely assume that any new EMUs ordered would be from the Electrostar family given they are still in full production and AGA already operate some. The new Gatwick Express units (27) were ordered in November 2014 and they hope to have them all in service by 2017, that's 3 years. If AGA orders a whole new fleet today to replace the 317s they would probably only finally be gone by 2020.

What is the definition of viable? Currently we are seeing all sorts of refurbishments are similar aged units. The similar aged 156s have all had hundreds of thousands spent on them to extend their life. The Mk1 slam door EMUs were touching 50 by the time they were finally replaced, 30 years old is nothing. We are seeing proposals for Pacer refurbishments and then there are the rebuilt Underground units appearing. Those last two especially are a shock to all but they appear to be happening. There is absolutely no reason that without a decent refurbishment they wont keep going.

 

[Max 1986]

Its so easy isn't it.

No, it isn't. Thats a fleet of 45 units, you can't just scrap them and have a new fleet ready. Lets look outside the AGA bubble quickly. We can safely assume that any new EMUs ordered would be from the Electrostar family given they are still in full production and AGA already operate some. The new Gatwick Express units (27) were ordered in November 2014 and they hope to have them all in service by 2017, that's 3 years. If AGA orders a whole new fleet today to replace the 317s they would probably only finally be gone by 2020.

What is the definition of viable? Currently we are seeing all sorts of refurbishments are similar aged units. The similar aged 156s have all had hundreds of thousands spent on them to extend their life. The Mk1 slam door EMUs were touching 50 by the time they were finally replaced, 30 years old is nothing. We are seeing proposals for Pacer refurbishments and then there are the rebuilt Underground units appearing. Those last two especially are a shock to all but they appear to be happening. There is absolutely no reason that without a decent refurbishment they wont keep going.

They are going to have to replace eventually no point in attempting to continually refurb. Why not straight away?

If they want to refurb them then ROSCO can deal with them and re-distribute to other TOC's

 

[TheEdge]

They are going to have to replace eventually no point in attempting to continually refurb. Why not straight away?

They cannot just pop a fleet into existence, it will not appear overnight. As I said, you are probably looking at 5-7 years to be rid of all 317s if a new fleet was ordered today, so they can't just up and scrap them, there needs to be some sort of life extension done to them. Ergo, refurb.

 

[nidave]

If they want to refurb them then ROSCO can deal with them and re-distribute to other TOC's

I really didn't want to jump in but this got me, so you don't give a stuff about anywhere else as long as you get new trains.. You cant say in one breath that they are not good enough for AGA, then claim they are fine for everyone else.

Is there a word for the NIMBY equivalent of this?

 

[Max 1986]

They cannot just pop a fleet into existence, it will not appear overnight. As I said, you are probably looking at 5-7 years to be rid of all 317s if a new fleet was ordered today, so they can't just up and scrap them, there needs to be some sort of life extension done to them. Ergo, refurb.

Yes granted but there is no reason that the 317's can not begin to be replaced with the new franchise (thats what was meant by straight away) deal then once in service the current stock can be either scrapped or refurbed and re distributed.
--- old post above --- --- new post below ---

I really didn't want to jump in but this got me, so you don't give a stuff about anywhere else as long as you get new trains.. You cant say in one breath that they are no good enough for AGA, then claim they are fine for everyone else.

Is there a word for the NIMBY equivalent of this?

Yeah in my opinion they are not fit for purpose and i wouldnt wish anyone to travel on them but if people are adament they can be refurbed and kept in service for up to 15 more years then fine you wont have a problem if they are re distributed to your lines.

GEML and West Anglia routes have been badly neglected and need major investment.

 

[nidave]

Yes granted but there is no reason that the 317's can not begin to be replaced with the new franchise (thats what was meant by straight away) deal then once in service the current stock can be either scrapped or refurbed and re distributed.
--- old post above --- --- new post below ---


Yeah in my opinion they are not fit for purpose and i wouldnt wish anyone to travel on them but if people are adament they can be refurbed and kept in service for up to 15 more years then fine you wont have a problem if they are re distributed to your lines.

GEML and West Anglia routes have been badly neglected and need major investment.

as does a lot of the rest of the railways - what makes your train more important than the pacer I used to get to work every day when I was travelling from Salford?

 

[Max 1986]

as does a lot of the rest of the railways - what makes your train more important than the pacer I used to get to work every day when I was travelling from Salford?

Put your case forward then..... No point in being objective about my views on AGA. Im just highlighting how bad our service and trains are but you are welcome to put your views across.

 

[HH]

No, it isn't. Thats a fleet of 45 units, you can't just scrap them and have a new fleet ready. Lets look outside the AGA bubble quickly. We can safely assume that any new EMUs ordered would be from the Electrostar family given they are still in full production and AGA already operate some.

Let's not get carried away. TfL have just ordered a fleet from Bombardier to (effectively) replace Class 315s/317s (and some 172s) on London Overground. Oddly enough the number is exactly 45 - and they have an option on additional units. They will be delivered during 2018, so that's less than 3 years from order.

Bombardier would make sense, with a heavy maintenance depot at Ilford, but they are not the only option.

 

[Dave1987]

I am a regular commuter on AGA.

I often come here to read on developments on the network and try and learn a bit more about the reasons of how and why things happen.
I certainly do not wish for such people as this thread and twitter has shown to be "my" spokesperson for commuters on Abellios network.

I am fairly sure the silent majority would feel the same way after seeing how its devolved into.

There is no debate here, just accusations and argument that is now turning into personal attacks and rants.

I suggest this thread be closed before it goes any further.


I dont think the BBC, NR, DfT nor AGA would even respond to a proper formal request for interview/meeting after seeing such public behaviour here.
Asking to meet people at some location after being so vitriolic? Can't you see why people refuse you that?

Alas, merely posting on this specific site will just qualify my post as 'trainspotter propaganda'

Mike, welcome to the forum. People on here are more than happy to have a reasonable discussion, and there are a lot of very knowledgeable people on here.
--- old post above --- --- new post below ---

Yes granted but there is no reason that the 317's can not begin to be replaced with the new franchise (thats what was meant by straight away) deal then once in service the current stock can be either scrapped or refurbed and re distributed.
--- old post above --- --- new post below ---


Yeah in my opinion they are not fit for purpose and i wouldnt wish anyone to travel on them but if people are adament they can be refurbed and kept in service for up to 15 more years then fine you wont have a problem if they are re distributed to your lines.

GEML and West Anglia routes have been badly neglected and need major investment.

Nobody would disagree that GEML is in bad need of a lot of investment. If you were to say that the 321's & 317's need a dam good refurb to be fit for another 10-15 years and that new stock would be far more preferable then no one would disagree with you. But to say they are "skips" only fit for scrap is complete nonsense.

Also you have made no mention or criticism of the elephant in the room here, Network Rail. In fact Delayed_again, for some reason, seems to be at pains to constantly defend them! Even with an entire new fleet the delays would not stop as all the speed restrictions and infrastructure failures would still be there. I seem to remember that with the Blunts Hall bridge issue DA tried to put all the blame on AGA for the lack of buses available on a Sunday, what do you say to that then??

 

[jon0844]

If these people were taken seriously, they could have probably asked AGA if they could spend a day or two shadowing various staff to see how things work day to day, how incidents are dealt with, how the maintenance is scheduled and so on.

I'm sure that any respected rail user group would be able to set up something like that.

And it could be a real eye opener, which could even change some opinions...

 

[Max 1986]

Mike, welcome to the forum. People on here are more than happy to have a reasonable discussion, and there are a lot of very knowledgeable people on here.
--- old post above --- --- new post below ---


Nobody would disagree that GEML is in bad need of a lot of investment. If you were to say that the 321's & 317's need a dam good refurb to be fit for another 10-15 years and that new stock would be far more preferable then no one would disagree with you. But to say they are "skips" only fit for scrap is complete nonsense.

Also you have made no mention or criticism of the elephant in the room here, Network Rail. In fact Delayed_again, for some reason, seems to be at pains to constantly defend them! Even with an entire new fleet the delays would not stop as all the speed restrictions and infrastructure failures would still be there. I seem to remember that with the Blunts Hall bridge issue DA tried to put all the blame on AGA for the lack of buses available on a Sunday, what do you say to that then??

My opinion is they are not fit for purpose. If they are to be refurbed then fine but they can be re distributed elsewhere.

Network Rail are far from perfect granted but that does not exscuse the general failings from AGA who are miles from perfect.

A valid point from DA about buses being laid on in my opinion. In most businesses regardless of what it is there is a business continuity plan in place but with AGA there seems to be nothing.
--- old post above --- --- new post below ---

If these people were taken seriously, they could have probably asked AGA if they could spend a day or two shadowing various staff to see how things work day to day, how incidents are dealt with, how the maintenance is scheduled and so on.

I'm sure that any respected rail user group would be able to set up something like that.

And it could be a real eye opener, which could even change some opinions...

Thing is JON you opnly expect to be taken seriously and value nothing else anyone has to say.

 

[jon0844]

I value the people who suffer from poor service from AGA (or anyone else), and have no representation because people like you who claim to have their interests at heart are totally ineffective, way off the mark nearly all the time about what the problems are and how they could be fixed, have no respect from those who work in the industry, and spend hours attacking those with differing views as if it's some sort of game (which I suspect it is).

And then asking people meet up for drinks and when refused, using that as proof that people won't debate with you.

Then you think you've got some victory that you can brag about on Twitter, yet I fail to see who actually cares. That I'm slagged off by a bunch of people I don't know, have never met and never will meet? Assuming it is even a bunch of people and not just one or two people with multiple identities.

 

[TheEdge]

Network Rail are far from perfect granted but that does not exscuse the general failings from AGA who are miles from perfect.

A valid point from DA about buses being laid on in my opinion. In most businesses regardless of what it is there is a business continuity plan in place but with AGA there seems to be nothing.

If AGA are miles from being perfect then NR must be light-years from perfection.

No, the buses was not a valid point at all. There are contingencies in place, which is exactly why there are buses dotted around the network just in case. But to expect AGA to be able to magic up enough buses and drivers (drivers being the biggest issue) to cover everything at short notice on a Sunday morning was never going to happen.

Do GA get any sort of recognition for the fact they negotiated a shortening or NRs blockade so they could serve Witham? Or that by Sunday night they had developed a workable temporary morning peak timetable?

Didn't think so.

 

[Max 1986]

I value the people who suffer from poor service from AGA (or anyone else), and have no representation because people like you who claim to have their interests at heart are totally ineffective, way off the mark nearly all the time about what the problems are and how they could be fixed, have no respect from those who work in the industry, and spend hours attacking those with differing views as if it's some sort of game (which I suspect it is).

And then asking people meet up for drinks and when refused, using that as proof that people won't debate with you.

Then you think you've got some victory that you can brag about on Twitter, yet I fail to see who actually cares. That I'm slagged off by a bunch of people I don't know, have never met and never will meet? Assuming it is even a bunch of people and not just one or two people with multiple identities.

Just for clarity JON "I know nothing" Morris where did i ask you for drinks?? More mis interpretation? I said meet nothing about drinks.

And that is your opinion if you think im way of the mark but you shouldnt preach about respect and debate when you clearly cant have.
--- old post above --- --- new post below ---

If AGA are miles from being perfect then NR must be light-years from perfection.

No, the buses was not a valid point at all. There are contingencies in place, which is exactly why there are buses dotted around the network just in case. But to expect AGA to be able to magic up enough buses and drivers (drivers being the biggest issue) to cover everything at short notice on a Sunday morning was never going to happen.

Do GA get any sort of recognition for the fact they negotiated a shortening or NRs blockade so they could serve Witham? Or that by Sunday night they had developed a workable temporary morning peak timetable?

Didn't think so.

All falls under business continuity im afraid. Every eventuality needs to be planned and accounted for. So i disagree and think the buses was a valid point.

 

[TheEdge]

All falls under business continuity im afraid. Every eventuality needs to be planned and accounted for. So i disagree and think the buses was a valid point.

Utterly ridiculous, thats like saying Channel Tunnel should maintain a fleet of ferries, just in case. I'm sure you would be first in line to know why money was being wasted on hundreds of buses that were never used.

And again, no response when pushed on things AGA did right. :roll:

 

[Max 1986]

Utterly ridiculous, thats like saying Channel Tunnel should maintain a fleet of ferries, just in case. I'm sure you would be first in line to know why money was being wasted on hundreds of buses that were never used.

And again, no response when pushed on things AGA did right. :roll:

So its ridiculous to have no contingency...... ill remind my boss of that when our business fails and we have no backup. To put it simply i would be sacked.

Im answering your points but your trying to persuade me to agree with something i dont.

 

[jon0844]

Just for clarity JON "I know nothing" Morris where did i ask you for drinks?? More mis interpretation? I said meet nothing about drinks.

Sigh. One of you lot invited me for a drink near Liverpool Street in the past. Given there are so many different names now in use, I have no idea who is who - and care even less.

Now if there are no drinks then I'm definitely not interested though!!

So its ridiculous to have no contingency...... ill remind my boss of that when our business fails and we have no backup. To put it simply i would be sacked.

Im answering your points but your trying to persuade me to agree with something i dont.

You pick out bits of posts to come back with a totally and grossly exaggerated response. Hence the accusations that I am a pro-Abellio industry insider that hates commuters (who pay many thousands of pounds a year) because I point out that some things are down to passengers, not Abellio. Or that I think you all deserve broken trains because I've said they could be refurbished.

If Abellio is reading this, and I'm sure someone by now will have forwarded this thread on to them (no, I haven't), I am sure they're having lots of entertainment right now - and of course will be seeing how blinkered you are, to the point that I'm sure they'll be bearing that in mind for future conversations and engagement with you.

I must thank you also for brightening up my day off. I'd have been otherwise extremely bored with building work going on, and me also putting off writing something that I've decided can wait a few more days. And clearly you've had no work to do today either.

 

[HH]

So its ridiculous to have no contingency...

Indeed it is. Except that they do have a contingency.

Arrangements are in place to supply replacement buses when needed, but that doesn't mean having drivers and buses just sitting around on the off chance. Do you have any idea how much that would cost?

 

[dk1]

Utterly ridiculous, thats like saying Channel Tunnel should maintain a fleet of ferries, just in case. I'm sure you would be first in line to know why money was being wasted on hundreds of buses that were never used.

And again, no response when pushed on things AGA did right. :roll:

I like that You too cannot compare the railway network with other minute companies & businesses. the sheer area it covers & the array of things that can go wrong & which are usually caused by a third party & out of TOCs & NRs control. To be honest I've worked there over 30 years & it's always been the same. Why the name of the company makes any difference this time I'm not sure. Maybe because it's a short term franchise with no major goals or investment. Unfortunately that's just how it is & until we know more about the promises from October next year, we'll all have to grit our teeth & get on with it.

Not really looked at this thread for a few days, gosh it's all kicked off again hasn't it?

 

[306024]

This is better than Eastenders :roll: but then again what isn't.

User groups and their supporters tend to fall into three categories.

1) Realists. Prepared to enter into constructive dialogue. Have the ability to listen as well as talk.

2) Fantasists. Have an interest in the railway but little concept of cost or practicality.

3) Nutters.

 

[jon0844]

What happens when 2 meets 3?

 

[306024]

What happens when 2 meets 3?

You get a thread with 1354 posts (and counting), fortunately with the odd intervention from 1 to maintain a bit of sanity.