Opening windows in very hot conditions (and when someone protests!)

[yorkie]

If people were a little more considerate in their actions, there wouldn't be this existential stand-off. A simple question: 'would you mind if I opened the window?' followed by 'no thanks, I'm alright' does not warrant billions of pages of drivel.

As stated in the original post, several passengers who had just boarded concluded the window should be opened. Another passenger overheard this and agreed asking someone if they could reach to open the window. I'm not quite sure if you're asking if some sort of announcement should be made asking if anyone minds or if everyone should be asked individually or something? And if so, what if one person objects when everyone else wants it open?
--- old post above --- --- new post below ---

there is no issue in my mind - if i am hot and it is an obviously roasting day the window is open. End of story.

If someone asks nicely and is obviously freezing i will shut it.

Agreed.

 

[Bevan Price]

I preferred sliding windows, where you could control the extent to which the window was open. Hopper windows, as used on recent buses, and Sprinter / Pacer type trains have only two positions - fully open or fully closed.

Many buses are worse than trains, in that they pump exhaust heat inside the bus, even on the hottest summer days - although some 142s also seem to have the same problem - or is it that the crew forget (or are unable) to turn off the interior heating ?

Although now of "above-average" age, I prefer some open windows in summer, unless it is raining.

 

[Xenophon PCDGS]

It's a bit rich to sit there in a low-cut, sleeveless top and then complain you're cold.

I must confess that the mode and style of garment you describe is one that my good lady wife would never allow me to wear....

 

[yorksrob]

I preferred sliding windows, where you could control the extent to which the window was open. Hopper windows, as used on recent buses, and Sprinter / Pacer type trains have only two positions - fully open or fully closed.

You forgot the 'flapping open and shut due to a knackered catch' position

 

[leshuttle]

You forgot the 'flapping open and shut due to a knackered catch' position

Many of the first gen Electrostars seem to have that problem now round SE land. Seems the frequent failure of air con and the guard releasing the flap windows has worn the seal or something? Here the annoyance isn't so much the draft but the noise in what is otherwise (bar noisy passengers/open gangway doors) a quiet train carriage environment on 375/7s.

 

[Pigeon]

It's very simple: someone who is too cold can always put more clothes on, whereas someone who is too hot can't always take more clothes off. Therefore windows-open wins.

I preferred sliding windows, where you could control the extent to which the window was open. Hopper windows, as used on recent buses, and Sprinter / Pacer type trains have only two positions - fully open or fully closed.

Not that it matters much as even when they are fully open they are about as effective as someone standing up the other end of the carriage and blowing in your general direction. I've been on trains where every single one of them is open and yet there is still no trace of any cooling breeze no matter where you are in the carriage.

It is high time the system stopped trying to protect people from their own actions and just accepted that if someone sticks their head out of the window and gets it knocked off it is their own stupid fault, end of story, and no skin off anyone else's nose.

 

[TheKnightWho]

It's very simple: someone who is too cold can always put more clothes on, whereas someone who is too hot can't always take more clothes off. Therefore windows-open wins.



Not that it matters much as even when they are fully open they are about as effective as someone standing up the other end of the carriage and blowing in your general direction. I've been on trains where every single one of them is open and yet there is still no trace of any cooling breeze no matter where you are in the carriage.

It is high time the system stopped trying to protect people from their own actions and just accepted that if someone sticks their head out of the window and gets it knocked off it is their own stupid fault, end of story, and no skin off anyone else's nose.

Except most of us want no-one's head knocked off, regardless of brain capacity. Not everyone is as callous as you are.

Aren't you the person who ranted about health and safety, and then proceeded to brag about doing some incredibly dangerous things whilst working?

 

[507021]

I was on a bus last year and it was very warm so I had the window open next to me. After I'd been on the bus for around an hour a teenager gets on and sits two rows behind me and slams the window closed. I opened it again - she then slammed it shut and rudely said "I'm cold - go and sit somewhere else if you want a window open"

After opening it again I pointed out that there were plenty of other seats available on the upper and lower decks as my window was staying open whether she liked it or not. She went downstairs to complain to the driver but he just laughed it off - it was absolutely roasting that day and the bus didn't have any air conditioning so the only way the journey could be bearable was if I had at least one window open

 

[trainophile]

I was on a bus last year and it was very warm so I had the window open next to me. After I'd been on the bus for around an hour a teenager gets on and sits two rows behind me and slams the window closed. I opened it again - she then slammed it shut and rudely said "I'm cold - go and sit somewhere else if you want a window open"

After opening it again I pointed out that there were plenty of other seats available on the upper and lower decks as my window was staying open whether she liked it or not. She went downstairs to complain to the driver but he just laughed it off - it was absolutely roasting that day and the bus didn't have any air conditioning so the only way the journey could be bearable was if I had at least one window open

Unbelievable, since you were on the bus long before she was. (Some) young people today... :roll: .

 

[Bletchleyite]

Except most of us want no-one's head knocked off, regardless of brain capacity. Not everyone is as callous as you are.

I would prefer peoples' heads not to be knocked off, but I would personally take a sign saying "passengers must not not lean out of the window", and the guard tapping on their shoulder if passing by, as completely sufficient a warning. If they are then so stupid that they continue, their loss.

 

[muddythefish]

It's unfortunate that most modern vehicles windows don't have much effect on the person next to them, but produce a draught for the people several rows back.

....and therein lies the problem. Opening windows creates a terrible draught for those sitting farther back - while not affecting those who opened the windows. The solution must be for people to swap places.
--- old post above --- --- new post below ---

there is no issue in my mind - if i am hot and it is an obviously roasting day the window is open. End of story.

If someone asks nicely and is obviously freezing i will shut it.

It's not that simple. If you're sitting farther back you get blown away by the draught.
--- old post above --- --- new post below ---

It's very simple: someone who is too cold can always put more clothes on, whereas someone who is too hot can't always take more clothes off. Therefore windows-open wins.
.

Not if you're in my carriage matey.

 

[TheKnightWho]

I would prefer peoples' heads not to be knocked off, but I would personally take a sign saying "passengers must not not lean out of the window", and the guard tapping on their shoulder if passing by, as completely sufficient a warning. If they are then so stupid that they continue, their loss.

Children, mentally ill people etc.

It's easy to blame them or someone else for not knowing better, but at the end of the day they've still had their head knocked off.

 

[Bletchleyite]

Children, mentally ill people etc.

It's easy to blame them or someone else for not knowing better, but at the end of the day they've still had their head knocked off.

Children should be under the care of an adult if they can't behave properly in public; there are more dangers in the world than train windows. Mentally ill people who are likely to do dangerous things will be in a similar position - again there are more dangerous things in the world than leaning out of a train window.

And if a sound-minded, non-suicidal[1] adult sticks their head out of the window and has it knocked off, ignoring the warnings, no, I don't have any sympathy, that's Darwinism in action. In some countries their estate would be sued for the cost of the delays and cleanup.

[1] Though sticking your head out of the window is not likely to be used for that purpose as it's not very effective, as you mostly don't have it knocked off; I've done it enough times and at no point have I had my head even nearly knocked off.

 

[TheKnightWho]

Children should be under the care of an adult if they can't behave properly in public; there are more dangers in the world than train windows. Mentally ill people who are likely to do dangerous things will be in a similar position - again there are more dangerous things in the world than leaning out of a train window.

And if a sound-minded, non-suicidal[1] adult sticks their head out of the window and has it knocked off, ignoring the warnings, no, I don't have any sympathy, that's Darwinism in action. In some countries their estate would be sued for the cost of the delays and cleanup.

[1] Though sticking your head out of the window is not likely to be used for that purpose as it's not very effective, as you mostly don't have it knocked off; I've done it enough times and at no point have I had my head even nearly knocked off.

Again, as I said, it's easy to say there should be a responsible adult in charge, but at the end of the day the list of possible consequences should *never* include decapitation. You can blame the parent/carer as much as you like, but that child still doesn't have a head.

I also thought we'd got rid of the idea of social Darwinism in the 1940s, but maybe that's just me. Once again, people do stupid things, but it doesn't mean they deserve to die! I cannot believe this is a conversation that needs to be had.

 

[507021]

Unbelievable, since you were on the bus long before she was. (Some) young people today... :roll: .

And yet she was the one who said I was being rude. This is the person who ten minutes later was listening to another passenger's telephone conversation (which was being held at a polite volume and not audible to everybody on board) and offering advice to the passenger's problem - when really it was absolutely none of her business. I would have said something but I couldn't be bothered arguing with her again

The word hypocrite comes to mind!

 

[Bletchleyite]

I also thought we'd got rid of the idea of social Darwinism in the 1940s, but maybe that's just me. Once again, people do stupid things, but it doesn't mean they deserve to die! I cannot believe this is a conversation that needs to be had.

I'm afraid we differ fundamentally. Reasonable efforts need to be made to point out danger, but if people don't heed it in my book that's their fault - one needs only go so far, in my view. And if you're wanting to cut many deaths rather than edge cases of people leaning out of train windows, ban all motor vehicles immediately. They are one of the biggest killers in the world, and near enough all of them have leanable windows!

And, yes, the penalty for gross stupidity often is death. It still often is, for example, if you jump/zigzag level crossing barriers. There is simply only so far it is sensible to go unless we just give up and stay home....which is where most accidents occur!

Edit: I would generally go along the lines that non-obvious dangers need to be guarded properly against, and those which are a specific risk to children - for example, it would be stupid if by fiddling with the door buttons you could open a train door while it was in motion (though there are countries where that[1] is the case, and I nearly fell out of one as a result, it'd have been safer just to leave it open as that would be an obvious danger) - but sticking your head out of an awkwardly-positioned slider vent on a train saloon window is such a deliberate and obviously dangerous[2] act that I see no particular need for it to be physically prevented.

[1] Worse, actually - the door opened itself on a sensor as I approached it to look out of the window, expecting to be able to lean on it! This was on a night train in Thailand. FWIW, the method of locking the doors to prevent this was...to operate the emergency release handle to depower the door!

[2] Actually not that dangerous on most lines as you wouldn't get your shoulders out, and the clearance on most lines (other than oddities like the Cumbrian Coast) tends to be more than the height of a typical adult's head alone.

 

[Pigeon]

Aren't you the person who ranted about health and safety, and then proceeded to brag about doing some incredibly dangerous things whilst working?

More or less Someone else started a thread to rant about health and safety. I posted on it to say the law had no business interfering with people's free choice to do stupidly dangerous things. I then cited an incident of myself doing such a thing to illustrate that I was prepared to put my money where my mouth was, and everyone proceeded to miss the point.

Anyway, there is no point me saying more because Neil Williams has said it all already so I'll just post this instead.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=tQslnmcHOeM

 

[edwin_m]

....and therein lies the problem. Opening windows creates a terrible draught for those sitting farther back - while not affecting those who opened the windows. The solution must be for people to swap places.

Try explaining that to the average open-window-favouring passenger!

 

[trainophile]

And yet she was the one who said I was being rude. This is the person who ten minutes later was listening to another passenger's telephone conversation (which was being held at a polite volume and not audible to everybody on board) and offering advice to the passenger's problem - when really it was absolutely none of her business. I would have said something but I couldn't be bothered arguing with her again

The word hypocrite comes to mind!

Hmm, now you say that, the phrase 'special needs' comes to my mind .

 

[meridian2]

.

I also thought we'd got rid of the idea of social Darwinism in the 1940s, but maybe that's just me. Once again, people do stupid things, but it doesn't mean they deserve to die! I cannot believe this is a conversation that needs to be had.

I completely agree. It's the one thing that pervades this forum is a fundamental desire to see humour in the actions of the stupid. They may not mean it, but it's as if they're way above stupidity.

I mean, it's not like train staff are infallible now, is it?

 

[Bletchleyite]

I completely agree. It's the one thing that pervades this forum is a fundamental desire to see humour in the actions of the stupid. They may not mean it, but it's as if they're way above stupidity.

Or maybe we just believe in individuals taking just a bit of responsibility for their own actions, and if they choose to do something obviously dangerous they do so at their own risk and that alone?

I don't believe in removing all risk from life. And risk posed by having opening windows on trains is minimal, and the danger totally obvious.

 

[meridian2]

Or maybe we just believe in individuals taking just a bit of responsibility for their own actions, and if they choose to do something obviously dangerous they do so at their own risk and that alone?

I don't believe in removing all risk from life. And risk posed by having opening windows on trains is minimal, and the danger totally obvious.

Then say so instead of this unnecessary self-indulgent humour regarding 'Darwin awards', and certainly do not wish death upon anyone, humourous or otherwise I don't know you ergo I am not privy to your sense of humour.

 

[Bletchleyite]

Then say so instead of this unnecessary self-indulgent humour regarding 'Darwin awards', and certainly do not wish death upon anyone, humourous or otherwise I don't know you ergo I am not privy to your sense of humour.

I referred to Darwinism, i.e. the scientifically proven fact of non-advantageous behaviour removing certain attributes from the gene pool (as well as being brought up with stupid/bad behaviours), not to the rather questionable humour of the "Darwin awards".

 

[507021]

Hmm, now you say that, the phrase 'special needs' comes to my mind .

It does really - no manners or respect for other peoples' private telephone conversations. Fortunately these days I very rarely travel on buses because I much prefer to either walk or drive to wherever I'm going. At least then there's no arguments over whether the window stays open or closed!

 

[TheKnightWho]

I'm afraid we differ fundamentally. Reasonable efforts need to be made to point out danger, but if people don't heed it in my book that's their fault - one needs only go so far, in my view. And if you're wanting to cut many deaths rather than edge cases of people leaning out of train windows, ban all motor vehicles immediately. They are one of the biggest killers in the world, and near enough all of them have leanable windows!

And, yes, the penalty for gross stupidity often is death. It still often is, for example, if you jump/zigzag level crossing barriers. There is simply only so far it is sensible to go unless we just give up and stay home....which is where most accidents occur!

Edit: I would generally go along the lines that non-obvious dangers need to be guarded properly against, and those which are a specific risk to children - for example, it would be stupid if by fiddling with the door buttons you could open a train door while it was in motion (though there are countries where that[1] is the case, and I nearly fell out of one as a result, it'd have been safer just to leave it open as that would be an obvious danger) - but sticking your head out of an awkwardly-positioned slider vent on a train saloon window is such a deliberate and obviously dangerous[2] act that I see no particular need for it to be physically prevented.

[1] Worse, actually - the door opened itself on a sensor as I approached it to look out of the window, expecting to be able to lean on it! This was on a night train in Thailand. FWIW, the method of locking the doors to prevent this was...to operate the emergency release handle to depower the door!

[2] Actually not that dangerous on most lines as you wouldn't get your shoulders out, and the clearance on most lines (other than oddities like the Cumbrian Coast) tends to be more than the height of a typical adult's head alone.

The only thing that needs be said is that just because something is bad, doesn't make it an excuse for another thing being bad.

I honestly cannot get my head around the callousness of that attitude, frankly, and I'm glad the government agrees with me.

 

[Bletchleyite]

I honestly cannot get my head around the callousness of that attitude, frankly, and I'm glad the government agrees with me.

Does it? The present Government has backed off a fair bit of safety related legislation.

 

[TheKnightWho]

Does it? The present Government has backed off a fair bit of safety related legislation.

You will notice the government has been veering to the right full-stop due to popular demand. That doesn't mean they're abolishing H&S altogether - just pushing its expansion less.

 

[Bletchleyite]

You will notice the government has been veering to the right full-stop due to popular demand. That doesn't mean they're abolishing H&S altogether - just pushing its expansion less.

Didn't say they had abolished it. They have ramped back some parts of it, though - one notable case is found in the Building Regulations, where since a year or so ago almost all DIY home electrical work is now once again permitted without requiring building control approval. Though that said, equally, a loophole that allowed DIY gas work has been plugged, and now gas work can *only* be done by a professional.

This does to some extent fit with my point about obvious dangers. The dangers of screwing up electrical work are obvious, and the more obvious errors are likely to cause a breaker to go (though not all of them, of course, there are potential unprotected dangerous failure modes in ring circuits, for example). The dangers of screwing up gas work may *seem* obvious, but you'll blow a row of houses up and not just your own[1], and there are dangers relating to carbon monoxide that may well not be picked up on e.g. required ventilation levels for a gas appliance.

[1] Generally I see the role of the law as being to protect individuals from the wilful or negligent actions of others, but much less so to protect them from their own stupidity.

Anyway this is way OT so I think I'll leave it there; perhaps a new thread is in order if you'd like to discuss further?

 

[SS4]

I suppose part of the difficulty lies in what should be considered too hot. Already too many people I've seen on buses who must think that outside temp = indoor temp and thus it must be cold inside if it's cold outside (no the heat from all the passengers and heaters do not count silly). Combine with the thought that raining = cold and even when it's reasonably cool outside one can still be hot enough to open a window

 

[trainophile]

The worst is malfunctioning (or wrongly adjusted) air conditioning, which renders the inside of the train like a fridge, while people are dressed for the warm summer's day that they left home in. I never travel without a pack-away quilted coat these days, having been caught out in a chiller compartment once too often. ATW used to be awful for this, although things seem to have improved more recently.