Northern/TPE Invitation to Tender published

[northwichcat]

I'm a little surprised there doesn't appear to be anything from the usual 3.

Siemens are possibly still too busy until the Thameslink order is complete - they didn't bid for Crossrail due to being too busy.

Maybe Bombardier are also too busy now they have Crossrail, as well as the extra Electostars?

Not sure if the see the 'usual' other as Hitachi (the newcomer) or Alstom (who haven't been the most successful in getting orders recently apart from the extra Pendolinos.)

CAF and Stadler are probably both very keen to get orders from the UK.

 

[47802]

Siemens are possibly still too busy until the Thameslink order is complete - they didn't bid for Crossrail due to being too busy.

Maybe Bombardier are also too busy now they have Crossrail, as well as the extra Electostars?

Not sure if the see the 'usual' other as Hitachi (the newcomer) or Alstom (who haven't been the most successful in getting orders recently apart from the extra Pendolinos.)

CAF and Stadler are probably both very keen to get orders from the UK.

I'm not sure what extra Electrostar's you mean other than the full uptake of the 387 option but clearly they will have a fair amount of work over the next few years with Crossrail Aventra's and the new Overground Aventra's.

The usual other I meant was Hitachi, maybe the others couldn't offer something in the required timeframe because they were too busy, or it wasn't worth the design rework they might have to make for what is a fairly small order based on the minimum specified although I guess there might be a possibility of additional orders.

I seem to recall there were comments on here about the Northern order likely to be updated 172's, Hmm!

 

[northwichcat]

I suspect Bombardier produced the 172 with the hope of getting more orders than they actually got.

They were expected to get "the order that never was" which was 10 x 4 car DMUs for TPE, 8 x 4 car DMUs for FGW and 130 x mixed length trains for Northern. I imagine they would have offered 172s (with an improved interior for TPE and FGW.)

A follow up post from Tony Miles on wnxx states TPE are set to order new bi-mode trains as well. Maybe the usual suspects are more interested in winning that work, than the Northern order. I'd guess those would be for Scottish services (including enhancements) and Liverpool-Newcastle, which could result both in more carriages and more pricey carriages than what Northern need.

 

[47802]

They were expected to get "the order that never was" which was 10 x 4 car DMUs for TPE, 8 x 4 car DMUs for FGW and 130 x mixed length trains for Northern. I imagine they would have offered 172s (with an improved interior for TPE and FGW.)

A follow up post from Tony Miles on wnxx states TPE are set to order new bi-mode trains as well. Maybe the usual suspects are more interested in winning that work, than the Northern order. I'd guess those would be for Scottish services (including enhancements) and Liverpool-Newcastle, which could result both in more carriages and more pricey carriages than what Northern need.

Interesting when I suggested that was a good option for TPE on WNXX I was told that idea was unlikely and 442/68 would be the order of the day.

 

[Haydn1971]

I've seen posted on wnxx that there are apparently just two manufacturer's competing for the new self-powered vehicles for Northern:

1. Stadler Rail Group with a DEMU FLIRT
2. CAF with an unspecified product

It appears if Bombardier, Siemens, Hitachi or Altsom offered anything it wasn't of interest to bidders.

Could you clarify what WNXX is please ?

I'm also assuming the DEMU isn't a bi-mode as suggested unthread - the FLIRT units have an above floor power car solution - essentially a short car that sits between passenger carriages.

 

[47802]

Could you clarify what WNXX is please ?

I'm also assuming the DEMU isn't a bi-mode as suggested unthread - the FLIRT units have an above floor power car solution - essentially a short car that sits between passenger carriages.

WNXX is another Rail Forum.

I presume if its Diesel Electric there potential for it to be bi-mode.

 

[Haydn1971]

Cheers...

Well to be fair, DEMU has previously meant diesel generating power for electric traction - but I note on the CAF website they offer options for "electric-diesel" and "dual" so they could have a bi-mode solution in place. Their "Civity" family appears to do floors from 600-800mm - would that be too low for UK use ?

Read about the FLIRT family before, like the above floor solution and from what's said on here, Stadler appear to be offering quality kit - interesting times ahead.

 

[northwichcat]

Could you clarify what WNXX is please ?

A website: http://www.wnxx.com/

Which also has a forum: http://wnxxforum.co.uk/
There's a lot less people posting on that forum than who post on here. However, some of them are people who are involved in writing rail news stories for newspapers and magazines.

I'm also assuming the DEMU isn't a bi-mode as suggested unthread - the FLIRT units have an above floor power car solution - essentially a short car that sits between passenger carriages.

Just looking again at the original source I can't see any mention of bi-mode. The closest I can see is a reference on the Stadler Factsheet for the existing Continental design about a DEMU being able to run in multiple with an EMU: http://www.stadlerrail.com/media/uploads/FELED0311e.pdf

And regarding the bit you mention

The diesel engine and the power generator will be
arranged in a power pack separated form the passenger salon, this will
reduce the noise and vibration influence to the passengers.

If anyone wants to try and work out how big one of those is a 2 car version is 45 470 mm in length while a 3 car version is 59 895 mm in length.

 

[LNW-GW Joint]

Network Rail will have to get over its aversion to articulated stock. Expect a protracted acceptance process.
As far as I can see the only diesel version has been delivered to Estonia (Flirt 3), though it is on order in Texas.
Not sure any hybrid version has been delivered. It is on order for Italy, 160kph electric/140kph diesel.
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Stadler_FLIRT
http://www.stadlerrail.com/en/vehicles/flirt-3/
http://www.stadlerrail.com/en/news/2015/05/13/first-bi-modal-stadler-flirt/
All the units seem to have full-width cabs, as you would expect on the continent.

 

[Bletchleyite]

Network Rail will have to get over its aversion to articulated stock.

Stadler can and do build conventional stock, so the FLIRT UK may well not be articulated.

 

[Xenophon PCDGS]

It was reported a few weeks back that Vivarail were in talks with Arriva Trains Wales over taking on D-Trains.

Has anyone any updated news on how these discussions are faring?

 

[BantamMenace]

Cheers...

Well to be fair, DEMU has previously meant diesel generating power for electric traction - but I note on the CAF website they offer options for "electric-diesel" and "dual" so they could have a bi-mode solution in place. Their "Civity" family appears to do floors from 600-800mm - would that be too low for UK use ?

Read about the FLIRT family before, like the above floor solution and from what's said on here, Stadler appear to be offering quality kit - interesting times ahead.

I think standard UK platform height is 915mm and you'd expect to step up into the train, not down into it.

 

[Stats]

Well to be fair, DEMU has previously meant diesel generating power for electric traction - but I note on the CAF website they offer options for "electric-diesel" and "dual" so they could have a bi-mode solution in place. Their "Civity" family appears to do floors from 600-800mm - would that be too low for UK use ?

They have developed a version for the UK market. The fifth image on this page shows it

CIVITY UK

CAF seeks to meet the specific needs of each and every market. With this aim in mind, it has standardised the Civity solution for the English market. With the same features and XX, Civity UK complies with the requirements of the British rail transport authorities, whilst always offering users the ultimate in comfort.

 

[Haydn1971]

Cheers for the links and clarifications everyone - exciting times ahead. Both the Stadler and CAF offerings look great and will be refreshing to see in the UK

 

[edwin_m]

Modern Railways for August is reporting that Hitachi would be building the West of England AT300s in Japan as Newton Aycliffe will be fully occupied with the IEP and ScotRail fleets. That, combined with no suitable diesel-powered design, is a good reason for Hitachi not to bid.

Siemens don't have any DMU design that would be suitable for the UK market either - 185s probably don't meet the latest standards and are way too heavy.

Alstom don't have anything remotely suitable at present - just the Pendolino and whatever was partly worked up for the Thameslink bid.

The most surprising name not figuring in this list is Bombardier, since I recall the Aventra was available in diesel and bi-mode versions and the bodyshell they have just successfully bid to London Overground would probably fit the bill with a different interior.

CAF have the DMU design for Northern Ireland and UK experience with the 332 and 333.

Stadler are more geared to producing small batches of non-standard trains, including very small orders for some of the minor Swiss railways. A colleague had some dealings with them some years back when they thought that a UK version of the GTW (a sort of downmarket FLIRT) would be do-able, and Modern Railways suggests the FLIRT could be produced as a DMU or a bi-mode. Stadler have a small foothold in the UK with the Croydon trams.

 

[Haydn1971]

To be fair, I expected the 120 self propelled units to be destined for the semi-fast market, shifting older units down the line, but given the suggested units, it's difficult to envisage what will go where - the FLIRT and CIVIA seem to be focused in slightly different markets or am I way off ?

 

[BantamMenace]

To be fair, I expected the 120 self propelled units to be destined for the semi-fast market, shifting older units down the line, but given the suggested units, it's difficult to envisage what will go where - the FLIRT and CIVIA seem to be focused in slightly different markets or am I way off ?

I reckon they'll be the premium routes specified plus selected others.

Bi-modes on Manchester - Blackpool, Windermere services, Barrow services, Leeds - Carlisle, etc.

Maybe Liverpool to Man Vic extended over the calder valley although this would displace the recently acquired 319s.

 

[transmanche]

Well it looks an interesting gadget, it will interesting to see how exactly its going to work with high level platforms and limited loading gauge of the UK.

I don't think that'll be a problem. They already supply units with different floor heights. They've made some EMUs for Poland with a floor height of 1.18m and a width of 2.82m.
--- old post above --- --- new post below ---

Network Rail will have to get over its aversion to articulated stock. Expect a protracted acceptance process.

They let the T&W Metro stock onto NR metals - albeit they are max 80km/h (50mph) units.

 

[Bantamzen]

I reckon they'll be the premium routes specified plus selected others.

Bi-modes on Manchester - Blackpool, Windermere services, Barrow services, Leeds - Carlisle, etc.

Maybe Liverpool to Man Vic extended over the calder valley although this would displace the recently acquired 319s.

Aren't the Calder Valleys expected to be extended to Manchester Airport or Chester or both, rather than Liverpool?

 

[Haydn1971]

From the key Northern and TPE routes, which routes have the highest proportion of diesel running under wires ? And are there any that are completely unwired ? Sheffield-Huddersfield springs to mind.

 

[northwichcat]

To be fair, I expected the 120 self propelled units to be destined for the semi-fast market, shifting older units down the line, but given the suggested units, it's difficult to envisage what will go where - the FLIRT and CIVIA seem to be focused in slightly different markets or am I way off ?

There are likely to be some of the Scotrail 158s and 170s available to take on.

I personally think Northern currently have too many regional style units - 155s, 156s and 158s and not enough commuter style DMUs, which is why we so often see local services operated by DMUs which are far from ideal for the routes they operate on.

 

[Bletchleyite]

I don't think that'll be a problem. They already supply units with different floor heights. They've made some EMUs for Poland with a floor height of 1.18m and a width of 2.82m.

Add the Scandinavian curved body profile to that and I'd reckon it'd fit the UK. They seem to be set up for producing a wide range of profiles.

 

[LNW-GW Joint]

They let the T&W Metro stock onto NR metals - albeit they are max 80km/h (50mph) units.

It's more subtle than that.
Alstom bid an articulated design for Thameslink, but found that NR's track access charges made it uncompetitive.
Something to do with the model NR uses to calculate track forces and therefore route maintenance costs.

 

[WatcherZero]

Yes based on axle load, articulated designs have fewer heavier axles so while the overall weight of the train was lower the track access cost was actually higher.

 

[Haydn1971]

I personally think Northern currently have too many regional style units - 155s, 156s and 158s and not enough commuter style DMUs, which is why we so often see local services operated by DMUs which are far from ideal for the routes they operate on.

Blurred lines between the two really - With Northern & TPE it's difficult to say when a commuter route becomes a regional route.

 

[Bletchleyite]

Blurred lines between the two really - With Northern & TPE it's difficult to say when a commuter route becomes a regional route.

True of many services in the UK given that, in order to operate high frequencies, we don't segregate. Even VWC Pendolinos are commuter trains south of MKC if they stop there, while the LM Crewe service isn't really a commuter train past Rugby.

 

[po8crg]

True of many services in the UK given that, in order to operate high frequencies, we don't segregate. Even VWC Pendolinos are commuter trains south of MKC if they stop there, while the LM Crewe service isn't really a commuter train past Rugby.

VWC also commuter between Stockport and Manchester.

 

[northwichcat]

Blurred lines between the two really - With Northern & TPE it's difficult to say when a commuter route becomes a regional route.

Which is why the class 170 train was so popular with TOCs in the late 90s/early 00s.

The thing you don't want with a 155/6/8 is a large number of people boarding/alighting at any intermediate stations unless there is an extended stop there. TPE 158s from Yorkshire stopping at Piccadilly before reversing to go to the Airport caused less problems than 158s running Liverpool-Yorkshire via Piccadilly platform 13.

 

[Haydn1971]

TPE 158s from Yorkshire stopping at Piccadilly before reversing to go to the Airport caused less problems than 158s running Liverpool-Yorkshire via Piccadilly platform 13.

I had a stark demonstration of that with a two carriage EMT 158 in the evening peak last week.

 

[edwin_m]

From the key Northern and TPE routes, which routes have the highest proportion of diesel running under wires ? And are there any that are completely unwired ? Sheffield-Huddersfield springs to mind.

I wouldn't call Sheffield-Huddersfield a key route!

Of the routes that Northern would probably designate as their high-quality ones, Nottingham/Sheffield to Leeds via Barnsley is unelectrified except for the last few metres into Leeds. If and when Midland electrification happens it will only add Sheffield (possibly Meadowhall) to Chesterfield. York-Blackpool is largely unelectrified today and will be electrified west of Preston and TP electrification would add the Leeds-York section. The routes going north-west out of Manchester still look like being fully electric within a few years, excepting Barrow.

Assuming TPE sticks to the intended route pattern, the core north TPE route will be electrified except between Stalybridge and York. Unclear what will happen to ideas of electrifying to Middlesbrough and Hull - I think Middlesbrough won't happen but Hull might.