The right of the 14 time limit

[CSGO]

Hi all

So on the 15th march i bought a ticket from shelford to letchworth. It was fully valid. On the way to letchworth i lost the ticket on the train. I know its crazy-it must have fallen out of my pocket. Long story short, i got stopped at the gate and got asked to put down my details. then, 25 days later, i get a letter for the notice of intention to prosecute. After doing research i found that i cannot be taken to magistrates court as i have passed over the 14 day time limit. I put in the letter that i wanted to pay the fine and do an out of court setlement but they want to go ahead any way. I did not bring up the 14 day rule in the letter i sent back to them cos i thought it would look rude. I now got another letter that says they want to take the matter to court.

Can they take me to court even though the letter arrived 11 days over the time limit? I am only 18 and just going into A2 level so a criminal record or any court action would hammer my chances of going to uni!

I am going to email to them about the 14 day thing but i want to check if i am in the right or wrong on my facts.

god bless

 

[bb21]

What 14-day limit?

They have six months from the date of the alleged offence to lodge the case with a court if they so wish.

 

[CSGO]

What 14-day limit?

They have six months from the date of the alleged offence to lodge the case with a court if they so wish.

here- http://www.nopenaltypoints.co.uk/notice-intended-prosecution.html

I know its about motorway laws but an NIP is an NIP so all the same rules apply

 

[LexyBoy]

I've not heard of this 14 days either. Has that come from the Penalty Fares rules? Either way, as bb21 says TOCs have a much longer period to consider bringing a prosecution.

I am only 18 and just going into A2 level so a criminal record or any court action would hammer my chances of going to uni!

Does the letter say what the offence is they are bringing the case under?

Most likely it will be a Byelaw offence (this being the easiest for them to persue, you have no defence as simply failing to present a ticket is an offence – there’s no requirement to prove you did it on purpose or hadn’t bought a ticket). If this is the case, then it is not recordable and for the most part will not affect university or job applications.

 

[bb21]

here- http://www.nopenaltypoints.co.uk/notice-intended-prosecution.html

I know its about motorway laws but an NIP is an NIP so all the same rules apply

No. Simple as that unfortunately.

 

[CSGO]

I've not heard of this 14 days either. Has that come from the Penalty Fares rules? Either way, as bb21 says TOCs have a much longer period to consider bringing a prosecution.



Does the letter say what the offence is they are bringing the case under?

Most likely it will be a Byelaw offence (this being the easiest for them to persue, you have no defence as simply failing to present a ticket is an offence – there’s no requirement to prove you did it on purpose or hadn’t bought a ticket). If this is the case, then it is not recordable and for the most part will not affect university or job applications.

"failure to produce a ticket apoun insepction"- is the reason for the court summons. If the 14 day rule is not a thing then what will happen next? will i get a criminal record, fine or comunity service. This is the first time ever that i have not had a ticket ready but also the first time with the court system

 

[cool110]

That's the byelaw offence, if it does go to court you're only looking at a fine (maximum £1000, but unlikely to be that high) with no criminal record

 

[CSGO]

That's the byelaw offence, if it does go to court you're only looking at a fine (maximum £1000, but unlikely to be that high) with no criminal record

Are you sure?

 

[cool110]

If it was the more serious Regulation of Railways Act offence (which would result in a criminal record) it would mention "with intent to avoid payment".

 

[PermitToTravel]

I know its about motorway laws but an NIP is an NIP so all the same rules apply

A NIP for certain motoring offences, in certain circumstances, must be served within 14 days. This does not apply to any other type of offence.

The offence you mentioned is definitely one that does not carry a criminal record.

 

[DaveNewcastle]

As bb21 and cool100 have already said quite correctly, the 14 days has nothing to do with Criminal Prosecutions, where 6 months may pass between the incident and a Prosecutor serving papers on the Court (it can take longer for the Court to then issue a Summons) - it's not uncommon for a Summons to be issued around 7 months after an incident, as so many legal teams are poorly staffed and are working close to deadlines. There's even a brief reference to that 6 month period at the foot of the page you quoted; that page which is only about a fast track procedure for the Police to deal with motoring incidents. In your incident, it is a private prosecution of a Criminal Offence (nothing to do with the Police or CPS), and which will be heard in a Magistrates Court.
The statutory references to this procedure in England and Wales are in Sections 1 and 127 of the 1980 Magistrates Court Act and Section 29 of the 2003 Criminal Justice Act and, probably more helpfully, are set out in Part 7 of the 2014 Criminal Procedure Rules (the CPR).

The penalty for an Offence under Railway Byelaw 18 is indeed a fine up to £1000, but for a first offence, this is much more likely to be in the region of £70 - £200 depending on a few factors such as how soon you plead Guilty and your means to pay.
In addition, if you are found to be Guilty, the Prosecution will ask that you pay their costs, a request which is usually but not always granted. Then there will be the small Victim Surcharge and if you plead Not Guilty, the higher Criminal Court Charge.
The chances of being found Not Guilty are very slim, as this Byelaw Offence is a matter of 'strict liability' and there are few avenues for any Defence. There is a possibility of a Discharge if the Evidence against you is weak.

For further information, please see here.

 

[jkdd77]

As bb21 and cool100 have already said quite correctly, the 14 days has nothing to do with Criminal Prosecutions, where 6 months may pass between the incident and serving papers on the Court (it can take longer for the Court to then issue a Summons) - there's even a brief reference to that 6 month period at the foot of the page you quoted, which is only about a fast track procedure for the Police to deal with motoring incidents. In your incident, it is a private prsecution of a Criminal Offence which will be heard in a Magistrates Court.

The penalty for an Offence under Railway Byelaw 18 is indeed a fine up to £1000, but for a first offence, this is much more likely to be in the region of £70 - £200 depending on a few factors such as how soon you plead Guilty and your means to pay.
In addition, the Prosecution will ask that you pay their costs, a request which is usually but not always granted. Then there is the small Victim Surcharge and if you plead Not Guilty, the Criminal Court Charge.

For further information, please see here.

The Criminal Courts Charge: http://www.legislation.gov.uk/uksi/2015/796/pdfs/uksi_20150796_en.pdf
only applies to offences committed on or after 13th April (so would not apply to the OP); it applies whether a convicted defendant has pleaded guilty or not guilty, but is much larger (generally £520 v £150) where a defendant has pleased not guilty but is nonetheless found guilty.

 

[DaveNewcastle]

The Criminal Courts Charge: http://www.legislation.gov.uk/uksi/2015/796/pdfs/uksi_20150796_en.pdf
only applies to offences committed on or after 13th April . . . . .

I hadn't finished composing my post when you replied, but you are absolutely correct that the offence pre-dates the introduction of the Criminal Courts Charge. It would not be imposed for an offence in March.

 

[FQ]

Did you pay for the ticket by cash or card? If card you should be able to prove you bought the ticket.

 

[reb0118]

Did you pay for the ticket by cash or card? If card you should be able to prove you bought the ticket.

This will not help in a byelaw prosecution as the offence is complete when the passenger is unable to produce a valid ticket on demand - usual caveats apply.

It may mitigate against a RoRA change but I do not think the OP is facing that.

 

[455driver]

Did you pay for the ticket by cash or card? If card you should be able to prove you bought the ticket.

All that would prove is that the bought a ticket, the proof of which ticket is the ticket itself, no ticket no proof!

 

[sarahj]

All that would prove is that the bought a ticket, the proof of which ticket is the ticket itself, no ticket no proof!

Yup, the simple defense could be, you bought the ticket, handed it to another person,, then traveled anyway.

On a slight tangent, its funny the number of people, changing trains at Brighton, who loose their ticket on the walk round from a main line train to a local train. Ask to buy a ticket on the local train from Brighton. Ask, where they have come from since there are barriers at Brighton, might say so and so. Can I see the ticket, oh i lost it/ threw it away. mmmmmmm:roll:

 

[CSGO]

Thank you all for your help- it has been very informative. I will keep this post open and let you know what happens and how it turns out. I think it is a bit overkill going straight to magistrates for a first time mishap but oh well. this is thameslink after all

 

[Clip]

Thank you all for your help- it has been very informative. I will keep this post open and let you know what happens and how it turns out. I think it is a bit overkill going straight to magistrates for a first time mishap but oh well. this is the railway after all

corrected that for you. Maybe in future you'll be a little bit more careful before a ticket seemingly falls out of your pocket whilst on the train

 

[Ritson]

Clip, I don't know what you meant by "a ticket seemingly falls out of your pocket."
These things do happen.

 

[cjmillsnun]

Clip, I don't know what you meant by "a ticket seemingly falls out of your pocket."
These things do happen.

Clip has heard it all before.

Yes it happens, but in less than 1% of cases where people say it has. Therefore those in the industry are rightly cynical.

 

[Ritson]

Or maybe just unreasonable. I lost my ticket once!
And by the way, I was on a research trip and the university I work for paid all my fares upfront via expenses, so I was hardly a "fare dodger" (as I obviously wasn't profiting by it). Maybe there are reasonable and unreasonable people in the industry...

 

[Flamingo]

Or maybe just unreasonable. I lost my ticket once!
And by the way, I was on a research trip and the university I work for paid all my fares upfront via expenses, so I was hardly a "fare dodger" (as I obviously wasn't profiting by it). Maybe there are reasonable and unreasonable people in the industry...

Well, the railway is not your mother, and if you lose things there are sometimes consequences. Try going back to a bank saying "I took a £20 note out of the cashpoint and I lost it, can I have another one please?", or telling the university "I left my dissertation in the back of a taxi, and it was the only copy, can you pass me anyway?", and see how "reasonable" they are...

 

[DaveNewcastle]

Yes it happens, but in less than 1% of cases where people say it has. Therefore those in the industry are rightly cynical.

Of course it does - but there are very different ways in which a passenger reponds to the unfortunate event.

Or maybe just unreasonable. I lost my ticket once!

Yes. Me too. And probably most other regular passengers have too, at some point or other. I don't know what you did, but I did the same as I would if I'd lost my pen, phone, hat or lunch : I' bought another.

It's those passengers who seem only to notice their loss when its too late to buy a replacement AND who seem unwilling to buy another AND become indignant at the suggestion that they are in breach of their Contract, AND who are not demonstrating their eagerness to remedy the situation, who are the passengers which an objective observer might consider to be 'unreasonable'.

 

[timbo58]

'Reasonability' will always be your personal opinion -what the more established members on here will give you in return is their opinion based on years (decades in most cases) of real experience in what does happen, every day on the rail network, I appreciate a commuter might see things from a narrower perspective.

i.e. why is the passenger then not seen as 'unreasonable' in expecting to be allowed to travel without penalty or for the examiner to take their word for it a ticket was purchased correctly, - perhaps there are reasonable and unreasonable people travelling...?

cjmillsnun's statement holds water in my (15+ years) experience, although I'd say the genuine 'lost ticket' scenario is actually even lower than 1%, unfortunately as with almost everything in life, we are judged and ruled by laws and regulations which have been placed because someone, somewhere has taken the **** and the number doing th same has reached a level that has required legislation/rules to be placed.

I'm not keen on a lot of laws/rules I see as petty but I'm not on forums declaring the people that have the not terribly nice job of enforcing said rules are being unreasonable either.

By all means protest the rule is unreasonable and try and do something about it, but if you convince yourself the staff are somehow getting a kick out of it you've lost any semblance of an argument in my view.

If an examiner has the time and sincerely believes a travellers 'lost ticket' story they can give the passenger the benefit of the doubt or ask further questions that (given experience) may bring back facts the examiner may choose to accept.
Unfortunately it is increasingly rare an examiner is given the luxury of this spare time (especially if they are a guard when they are hard pressed with other duties).

 

[Ritson]

I merely said that some staff were more zealous in the execution of their duties than others were.
Luckily in my case, I approached a guard and explained what happened and he took my word for it.
That was a *reasonable* thing for the guard/whatever his job title was to do - no?

My comment was aimed at the:
Clip has heard it all before.

Yes it happens, but in less than 1% of cases where people say it has. Therefore those in the industry are rightly cynical.

Maybe some staff could learn not to be so cynical?
Just a thought...
--- old post above --- --- new post below ---

Well, the railway is not your mother, and if you lose things there are sometimes consequences. Try going back to a bank saying "I took a £20 note out of the cashpoint and I lost it, can I have another one please?", or telling the university "I left my dissertation in the back of a taxi, and it was the only copy, can you pass me anyway?", and see how "reasonable" they are...

A silly answer!
It would never be a student's only copy. They'd have it electronically somewhere no doubt.

 

[Fare-Cop]

Of course it does - but there are very different ways in which a passenger reponds to the unfortunate event.

Yes. Me too. And probably most other regular passengers have too, at some point or other. I don't know what you did, but I did the same as I would if I'd lost my pen, phone, hat or lunch : I' bought another.

It's those passengers who seem only to notice their loss when its too late to buy a replacement AND who seem unwilling to buy another AND become indignant at the suggestion that they are in breach of their Contract, AND who are not demonstrating their eagerness to remedy the situation, who are the passengers which an objective observer might consider to be 'unreasonable'.

Sadly, I believe I can guess which category Ritson will normally be found in, but I am very pleased to say that in my experiences as an inspector back in the day, there always seemed to be many more in the category DaveNewcastle would seem to fit.

 

[bb21]

Of course it does - but there are very different ways in which a passenger reponds to the unfortunate event.

Yes. Me too. And probably most other regular passengers have too, at some point or other. I don't know what you did, but I did the same as I would if I'd lost my pen, phone, hat or lunch : I' bought another.

It's those passengers who seem only to notice their loss when its too late to buy a replacement AND who seem unwilling to buy another AND become indignant at the suggestion that they are in breach of their Contract, AND who are not demonstrating their eagerness to remedy the situation, who are the passengers which an objective observer might consider to be 'unreasonable'.

Quite.

The one time I lost my ticket, I was refused permission by gateline staff to speak to the guard, so I bought a new walk-on ticket. Not most pleased but only had myself to blame, and had to prepare myself to travel in Standard instead of First Class which I originally bought an Advance for.

Explained to the guard as I boarded, and showed him my original booking confirmation together with the new ticket. Luckily he happily allowed me to travel in First so I could charge my phone. Still, £59 lighter in my pocket.

I always believed that attitude played a big part in these situations where discretion was required, and seeking permission in advance in such situations often (obviously not always) results in discretion being exercised and favourable outcomes for the passenger.

Unfortunately discovering that your ticket was lost at the end of the journey while walking towards a barrier line would always be a little more suspicious than seeking permission in advance of travel, but even so, if the right attitude is shown, for a first offence, there is a good chance that discretion would be shown and any dispute settled outside the court system, albeit with a small-ish cost.

 

[Fare-Cop]

I always believed that attitude played a big part in these situations where discretion was required, and seeking permission in advance in such situations often (obviously not always) results in discretion being exercised and favourable outcomes for the passenger.

Unfortunately discovering that your ticket was lost at the end of the journey while walking towards a barrier line would always be a little more suspicious than seeking permission in advance of travel, but even so, if the right attitude is shown, for a first offence, there is a good chance that discretion would be shown and any dispute settled outside the court system, albeit with a small-ish cost.

Exactly, it's a case of taking responsibility for our own actions.

 

[cookie365]

I did the same as I would if I'd lost my pen, phone, hat or lunch : I' bought another.

The big difference though is that if you lose your £4.95 lunch, the replacement lunch also costs £4.95.

But if you lose your £4.95 train ticket, there's always the possibility that the replacement ticket costs £49.95.